OT Don't Be Dissin' The American Flag

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Re: patriotism

Conservatives and liberals have different ideas of patriotism. For conservatives, "patriotism" means supporting the US through symbolism and, crucially, not criticizing it. Criticizing it means disloyalty.

For liberals, "patriotism" means forcing the nation to live up to it's high-minded (and legitimately fine) ideals. When the nation doesn't, pointing out those problems that need to be fixed.

These are generalities. Individuals can, of course, differ. But it's certainly been the running theme I've seen from members of each group.

Coming from this (liberal) individual, the flag is not sacrosanct. It's just an emblem of a nation that, like every other nation, has a complicated history and stands for good things and bad things. One shouldn't blindly support a nation and one surely shouldn't blindly support a piece of cloth that stands for that nation. As humans, we're capable of much more nuanced discussion than "love it or leave it."
 
Minstrel said:
For liberals, "patriotism" means forcing the nation to live up to it's high-minded (and legitimately fine) ideals. When the nation doesn't, pointing out those problems that need to be fixed.
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As an aside I'd like to think the theme, In God We Trust was a good thing, high-minded/moraled, and patriotic idea.

But, I digress.....
 
ABM said:
As an aside I'd like to think the theme, In God We Trust was a good thing, high-minded/moraled, and patriotic idea.

But, I digress.....
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i also agree that trusting in God is a good thing, but the motto chosen by the fore fathers of this country was a different motto.
"It serves as a replacement and, in some cases, an alternative, to an earlier unofficial Latin motto of E pluribus unum (“Out of Many One”), which was adopted when the Second Confederation Congress created the Great Seal of the United States in 1782."
Eisenhower in 1956 signed a bill making "in God we trust" the official motto., one nation under god was also added to the pledge of allegiance during his administration.
" Eisenhower discussed why he had wanted to include “under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance: “In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America’s heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country’s most powerful resource in peace and war.”
we may have lost our way, and further, any moral authority since it was enacted, but that shouldn't take away from his ideal, IMHO. in a secular society, perhaps it is less appealing.

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
i still feel that these are laudable ideals, the ideas i believe eisenhower referred to.
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/07/30/in-god-we-trust-becomes-nations-motto-july-30-1956-741016
 
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julius said:
It was a non apology apology. People do it all the time. They offer up tone deaf platitudes, and really are sorry people reacted the way they did, and not actually that they are sorry/apologetic for what they said/did.

His agents words aren't his.
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I don't care who wrote it but I am glad it was said....people need to be able to apologize and mean it....I remember when my own father apologized for his own racism to me....I respect that he made the effort even though he was dying when he did...we didn't speak for most of my life after the war...over mixed marriage...not marrying the irish girl...I felt he was sincere in the end...he was an atheist so it wasn't a last ditch effort to make peace with any God..
 
THE HCP said:
Right? Not a god damn word.
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Actually, I missed that one. The answer is no, I never did. I gladly would have if called, thought. Nonetheless, why? What is your point? Would this somehow make me less patriotic or not in position to legitimately appreciate our flag?
 
ABM said:
Actually, I missed that one. The answer is no, I never did. I gladly would have if called, thought. Nonetheless, why? What is your point? Would this somehow make me less patriotic or not in position to legitimately appreciate our flag?
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Of COURSE that's what you think I'm saying.
I served my country. I served my country so people like YOU could voice your opinion. I served my country so nutjobs can have a grenade launcher locked and loaded in their mom's basement to be ready to defend their nerd bunker at all times. I served my country so people could peacefully take a knee to voice their opinion.
I fucking served my country and don't hang a flag up, I've earned that right. The only flag I own is the one they hung over my grandfather who served in Korea's dead body. People like YOU are in no place to tell others what IS and what ISN'T patriotic.
I served my country.
 
THE HCP said:
tell others what IS and what ISN'T patriotic.
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It's amazing how many people who've never served or been in a real war hang onto these patriotic symbols to prop up nationalism. Then vote for mr. Bone Spurs himself.....it's a culture I have issues with...and you know when shit gets real, these folks find the first lifeboat or bunker and hide it out until it's safe to come out and lecture on patriotism again.
 
THE HCP said:
People like YOU are in no place to tell others what IS and what ISN'T patriotic.
I served my country.
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I said that exactly where??

Nonetheless, I'm always appreciative of you, and everyone else, who's served our country. Thank you.
 
I never served. I suppose I could claim that was because of some principle since my time to have served was the Vietnam era. But I got lucky in the 2nd draft lottery and my number was 362 (out of 365). So, I was off the hook

I'd already decided that if my number would have been 1-50 I would have volunteered for the draft; I wasn't going to flee to Canada. Volunteering for the draft would have given me a slight choice of options on specialty. But no guarantee. But I never had to make that choice

again though, this was all remedial thinking I was engaged in. I opposed the war but honestly, much of that was probably self-interest in not getting my balls blown off in a rice paddy. I was so fucking shallow I actually went to a couple of anti-war protests hoping to meet chicks. Of course, that was about as successful as just all my efforts at meeting gals. Just an aside, that was in the days when lots of gals didn't shave their legs or armpits. It was a hairy time, in several different ways

what's the point of all this? how should I know I started typing this 3 minutes ago and that's about 100 seconds too long to retain the original thought. To my credit, I did end up on the basic level of thinking about women, even if they were a bit hairy
 
THE HCP said:
I’m not saying that you have to of served to have an opinion. I would never feel that way.
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You asked me if I had served. Then, made it a point to be certain I saw your question. I'm guessing it has some importance(?)
 
The biggest protesters of my generation served....I don't blame anyone for not serving...my issue is with people who start waiving patriotic slogans at protesters over flags or guns or whatever they hold sacred...we're all people with stories.
 
wizenheimer said:
I never served. I suppose I could claim that was because of some principle since my time to have served was the Vietnam era. But I got lucky in the 2nd draft lottery and my number was 362 (out of 365). So, I was off the hook

I'd already decided that if my number would have been 1-50 I would have volunteered for the draft; I wasn't going to flee to Canada. Volunteering for the draft would have given me a slight choice of options on specialty. But no guarantee. But I never had to make that choice

again though, this was all remedial thinking I was engaged in. I opposed the war but honestly, much of that was probably self-interest in not getting my balls blown off in a rice paddy. I was so fucking shallow I actually went to a couple of anti-war protests hoping to meet chicks. Of course, that was about as successful as just all my efforts at meeting gals. Just an aside, that was in the days when lots of gals didn't shave their legs or armpits. It was a hairy time, in several different ways

what's the point of all this? how should I know I started typing this 3 minutes ago and that's about 100 seconds too long to retain the original thought. To my credit, I did end up on the basic level of thinking about women, even if they were a bit hairy
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Love In's man....hairy chicks and all. Nothing like a flower girl with beads!
 
wizenheimer said:
I never served. I suppose I could claim that was because of some principle since my time to have served was the Vietnam era. But I got lucky in the 2nd draft lottery and my number was 362 (out of 365). So, I was off the hook

I'd already decided that if my number would have been 1-50 I would have volunteered for the draft; I wasn't going to flee to Canada. Volunteering for the draft would have given me a slight choice of options on specialty. But no guarantee. But I never had to make that choice

again though, this was all remedial thinking I was engaged in. I opposed the war but honestly, much of that was probably self-interest in not getting my balls blown off in a rice paddy. I was so fucking shallow I actually went to a couple of anti-war protests hoping to meet chicks. Of course, that was about as successful as just all my efforts at meeting gals. Just an aside, that was in the days when lots of gals didn't shave their legs or armpits. It was a hairy time, in several different ways

what's the point of all this? how should I know I started typing this 3 minutes ago and that's about 100 seconds too long to retain the original thought. To my credit, I did end up on the basic level of thinking about women, even if they were a bit hairy
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riverman said:
sure, but you can probably make it on foot to the store and back without getting choked to death...….perspective...police brutality and equal rights are worth taking a knee for....it's completely appropriate...remember the black gloves at the Olympics way back in the civil rights movement? It's time to recognize the need for major national change regarding privelege and the targeting of minority citizens....I'm a war vet and I'm not offended by a football player protesting treatment of blacks by cops...nobody should be...we should all take a knee together since govt lacks the integrity to police it's own conduct
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I'm a 100% disabled combat Vet and I agree with you. Got my Army flag right below my American flag. I use to have an MIA/POW bumper sticker on my car. Love my country and my flag and love people's rights to take a knee at a football game or other acts for free speech.
 
Hoopguru said:
Love In's man....hairy chicks and all. Nothing like a flower girl with beads!
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Yeah, I loved that too except for the part about hairy chicks. Could never stand a woman with hairy legs.
 
Soooooo...these players are taking a knee. Are they doing anything with that? Or is this simply an act they'll carry out until somebody else figures out how to correct this issue?

I'd love it if the player associations got involved and helped develop player programs - speaking in schools, community service, and the like. These players are advantaged - much more than you and me - so it would be great if they took their plea to another level.
 
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