OT Don't Be Dissin' The American Flag

[ABM]

the whole planet disagrees with you on this one....Trump is the worst enabler of bad social behavior we've ever had in DC....I've read enough of your posts to know you have an inherent need to sweep Trump's horrible leanings under the rug and prop up as much reasonable doubt around him as you can dig up....tough job ...but you're clearly on the wrong side of history...Trump has enabled bad behavior and made lying the status quo....yeah....I have opinions about that.What's flat out wrong is cheering him on for any reason. Of all the choices we make in a life...Trump is a bad, uninformed choice. Donald Trump is the poster boy for white privilege and a vote for Trump is a vote for exactly that

Last I checked, minorities were making some headway under his policies. But, anyway....

 

[Hoopguru]

I think Trump is doing that.

Like Hillary did...

 

[riverman]

I never thought of a cop choking off the blood to a black man's head as making headway.....I never thought detaining and separating Hispanic families at the border and calling the men all rapists was making headway...I never thought calling poorer countries than us, shithole countries as making headway for minorities.....we now have protests all over the country over the so called "headway" policies

 

[THE HCP]

 

[lawai'a]

what is really sad to me is it has been almost 4 years since boyer and kaepernick came up with the taking a knee protest about police brutality but that there really hasn't been meaningful reform to address the issue. i am hopeful this time there is a different outcome.

 

[ABM]

what is really sad to me is it has been almost 4 years since boyer and kaepernick came up with the taking a knee protest about police brutality but that there really hasn't been meaningful reform to address the issue. i am hopeful this time there is a different outcome.

Thanks for helping to make my previous points.

 

[lawai'a]

Last I checked, minorities were making some headway under his policies. But, anyway....

again what is sad is this piece was written in august of last year. it documents the abandonment of reforms embraced and instituted by the DOJ under the previous presidency. i think the quote at the end of the following article sums up the frustrations of many concerning meaningful policing and judicial reforms that have not come about since Ferguson.

“I can’t say things have gotten better,” Blake Strode, executive director of ArchCity Defenders, a legal advocacy organization that has fought ticketing practices, told the Times. “I understand the status quo to be one of structural racism, poverty, overinvestment in the carceral system, and policing and prosecution. That is as real today in 2019 as it was five years ago in 2014.”

https://eji.org/news/five-years-after-ferguson-policing-reform-abandoned/

A Federal Retreat from Reform
After police in Ferguson met protestors with tanks and other military-grade equipment, the Obama administration convened the President’s Task Force on 21st Century Policing and, unveiling its recommendations in March 2015, President Obama called on the nation to seize the opportunity “to really transform how we think about community-law-enforcement relations so that everybody feels safer and our law enforcement officers feel, rather than being embattled, feel fully supported.”

The Justice Department’s civil rights division embarked on an unprecedented police reform campaign using investigations and consent decrees with police departments in Baltimore, Chicago, and Ferguson alongside a voluntary Collaborative Reform program that enrolled 16 police departments across the country.

The Trump administration has abandoned those efforts, halting new investigations and fighting to block or limit existing consent decrees. In September 2017, hours after a white police officer was acquitted in the shooting death of a black man in St. Louis, the Justice Department announced that then-Attorney General Jeff Sessions had eliminated the Collaborative Reform program.

And just before he left office, Sessions issued a memorandum to make it more difficult for DOJ to enter into consent decrees with state and city governments, mandating closer control by the department’s most senior political appointees, requiring expiration dates for consent decrees, and limiting what the department can require of state and local agencies.

About a third of the staff assigned to investigate police practices at the Civil Rights Division’s Special Litigation Section (which numbered 29 people at its peak) have departed since Trump’s election, HuffPost reports. The Trump administration has shrunk the unit and there are no plans to replace employees who have left.

 

[ABM]

again what is sad is this piece was written in august of last year. it documents the abandonment of reforms embraced and instituted by the DOJ under the previous presidency. i think the quote at the end of the following article sums up the frustrations of many concerning meaningful policing and judicial reforms that have not come about since Ferguson.

“I can’t say things have gotten better,” Blake Strode, executive director of ArchCity Defenders, a legal advocacy organization that has fought ticketing practices, told the Times. “I understand the status quo to be one of structural racism, poverty, overinvestment in the carceral system, and policing and prosecution. That is as real today in 2019 as it was five years ago in 2014.”

https://eji.org/news/five-years-after-ferguson-policing-reform-abandoned/

A Federal Retreat from Reform
After police in Ferguson met protestors with tanks and other military-grade equipment, the Obama administration convened the President’s Task Force on 21st Century Policing and, unveiling its recommendations in March 2015, President Obama called on the nation to seize the opportunity “to really transform how we think about community-law-enforcement relations so that everybody feels safer and our law enforcement officers feel, rather than being embattled, feel fully supported.”

The Justice Department’s civil rights division embarked on an unprecedented police reform campaign using investigations and consent decrees with police departments in Baltimore, Chicago, and Ferguson alongside a voluntary Collaborative Reform program that enrolled 16 police departments across the country.

The Trump administration has abandoned those efforts, halting new investigations and fighting to block or limit existing consent decrees. In September 2017, hours after a white police officer was acquitted in the shooting death of a black man in St. Louis, the Justice Department announced that then-Attorney General Jeff Sessions had eliminated the Collaborative Reform program.

And just before he left office, Sessions issued a memorandum to make it more difficult for DOJ to enter into consent decrees with state and city governments, mandating closer control by the department’s most senior political appointees, requiring expiration dates for consent decrees, and limiting what the department can require of state and local agencies.

About a third of the staff assigned to investigate police practices at the Civil Rights Division’s Special Litigation Section (which numbered 29 people at its peak) have departed since Trump’s election, HuffPost reports. The Trump administration has shrunk the unit and there are no plans to replace employees who have left.

What you've related is very enlightening. I wasn't aware of this. I can only hope and pray that Trump will take measures in his administration's own right to help improve relations between cops and minorities...which has now become a worldwide phenomenon. Trump continues to cite the economy as the great emancipator. It will require much more than that. Much more.

I suppose some degree of hope can be extracted from this - there's usually some good with the bad in all situations - but it's still painfully obvious how far away we still are. Godspeed.

https://www.realclearpolicy.com/202...ent_in_race_relations_under_trump_483605.html

 

[MickZagger]

Last I checked, minorities were making some headway under his policies. But, anyway....

I call bullcrap.

 

[ABM]

I call bullcrap.

I made a subsequent post.

 

[RR7]

Minorities making headway, and satisfaction with race relations are two very different things. A poll showing an increase in people's views of race relations without a solid definition of that, or why people chose it doesn't really give us anything.

 

[PDXFonz]

America is good because of the good people who inhabit it.

The government and their organizations are corrupt and have been since long before any of us were living our present lives.

 

[THE HCP]

As he proudly flies a flag in his truck.....

 

[THE HCP]

Doesn’t get any more disrespectful than this.

 

[wizenheimer]

As he proudly flies a flag in his truck.....

https://theworldlink.com/news/local...cle_43e9eb32-a83e-11ea-99c1-6395257f990a.html

pinheads with guns

 

[THE HCP]

But as long as they’re flying the flag

 

[Propagandist]

Luvs me some John Prine.

R.I.P.

I saw him the last couple of summers at the Oregon Zoo. The shows were incredibly touching with the entire audience singing every word. I'll sure miss them.

 

[Propagandist]

People just need to tune Trump out and focus on positive ways to bring people together as Americans.
Lets have a no politics allowed muti cultural rock festival where there is peace and love!
What tribe to you belong too?

I'd agree if Trump wasn't such a divisive person. Since I have three young kids and a teenager (almost 18! holy fuck!), I am completely in the business of turning bad things into good things, ie finding the silver linings. I won't bore you with examples, but I will say that I think Trump's fuckedupness will unify this nation (or tear it apart. Don't tell my kids I said that!). In other words, instead of tuning Trump out, maybe it is good that we are all listening/hearing him (except @ABM, @magnifier661 , et al of course). What we are hearing is unifying us.

The peace and love you and I want is what the crowds want. The loudest voices right now are seeking it. There is the potential for much positivity and growth following all this turmoil that we might not have reached without this low point in leadership. I don't know...

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

I'd agree if Trump wasn't such a divisive person. Since I have three young kids and a teenager (almost 18! holy fuck!), I am completely in the business of turning bad things into good things, ie finding the silver linings. I won't bore you with examples, but I will say that I think Trump's fuckedupness will unify this nation (or tear it apart. Don't tell my kids I said that!). In other words, instead of tuning Trump out, maybe it is good that we are all listening/hearing him (except @ABM, @magnifier661 , et al of course). What we are hearing is unifying us.

The peace and love you and I want is what the crowds want. The loudest voices right now are seeking it. There is the potential for much positivity and growth following all this turmoil that we might not have reached without this low point in leadership. I don't know...

I sent this in a PM earlier to a friend. Not so much as an opinion, but just some thoughts. I’ll post it here, just cause it seems kinda relevant.

have you ever done any research on Nero?
He’s an interesting figure in Rome’s history. He was considered one of the most evil and ruthless Emporers. Much of what we know of his life is mainly from three authors. Its said he killed his mother, and his step brother, and that he started the fire in rome. He was completely villified too and committed suicide at 30 years old.

I think of the US as having a lot in common with Rome and thats why I bring this up. There is a lot of evidence that he actually had nothing to do with the fires that engulfed Rome, and that he didnt kill his brother either. That those stories were more politics than anything.

Whats rarely talked about though is that he killed Christians by the thousands and blamed them for the fires in Rome and used the fire to rezone and remake Rome to be more like what he wanted.

I have two thoughts from this. A.). Whether its Trump or Biden or anyone, we should be wary of those who try to use Tragedy for political gain. Nero used the deaths of thousands in the fire to further his war on Christians some were his own guards. B.). Sometimes I actually think Trump is kind of like Nero. Im not sure if he’s guilty of all the things the media try to put on his shoulders. The politics are wild the last decade or so. Also though its hard to be incredibly sympathetic to either of these “men” as they’re quick to try to use tragedy to cause more tragedy if it fits their agenda’s.

My hope is, is that if Biden wins and the Democrats win this November they do not let the tragedy’s of COVID19 or Floyd, or the riots actually make more tragedy’s. I am sort of scared though (maybe I have trust issues lol), that they will fuel divisiveness and anger and all the negatives into more tragedy. History often repeats itself and look at what happened after Nero (which I literally have never heard talked about politically). Legions refused to swear fealty to the new emperor, 4 emperors in succession and Roman civil war, and after all that it did not lead to a better Rome.

So while there is part of me that definitely thinks well Biden certainly cant be worse then Trump (and none of this is saying I want four more years of Trump). I think after reflection on whats going on, I hope that as this country moves forward they (Both sides of the aisle), realize that while history may certainly not look back at Trump with any kindness, it turns out that Nero’s political enemies, well no one looks back at them with kindness either.

Edit: I want to make it clear, I hope that wherever our country goes from this that history ends up looking at it as a positive thing and not a negative one.

 

[ABM]

I'd agree if Trump wasn't such a divisive person. Since I have three young kids and a teenager (almost 18! holy fuck!), I am completely in the business of turning bad things into good things, ie finding the silver linings. I won't bore you with examples, but I will say that I think Trump's fuckedupness will unify this nation (or tear it apart. Don't tell my kids I said that!). In other words, instead of tuning Trump out, maybe it is good that we are all listening/hearing him (except @ABM, @magnifier661 , et al of course). What we are hearing is unifying us.

The peace and love you and I want is what the crowds want. The loudest voices right now are seeking it. There is the potential for much positivity and growth following all this turmoil that we might not have reached without this low point in leadership. I don't know...

Good post.

I was just telling my wife yesterday that, perhaps, the nation/world needed an antagonist such as Trump to motivate the ranks - in whatever capacity that may be. He came to drain the swamp, but he's been taking a bunch of trees with him, as well. Sometimes, less trees means more overall vision of the area at large. But, log too many trees?

I still do believe Trump has had our nation's best interests in mind (kind of an us against the world - thinking America has been getting screwed by China, ISIS, et al), and he has had to deal with the entire ranks of the democratic leadership from the get-go, yet his Costco-sized ego has gotten the best of him on more than one occasion. All that said, we have a completely charged-up situation right now and the world is watching.

Speaking of this, my wife and I watched this yesterday morning...and probably the reason I made those Trump comments to her. It's a good watch...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-whole-world-is-watching-us/

 

[julius]

Im sure the video has been posted that addressed this, but would you want to switch places with the average black person or other POC, ABM?

Like, if tomorrow you woke up and instead of ABM the white guy living in the south, you were ABM, a black guy living in Nashville, would you be like "nothing has changed, I'm good."?

Same job, same house, marriage, etc...but you were no longer white but were black. Would you welcome that? Do you think you'd be treated the same by others?

And if not, why not?

This isn't to say YOU treat POC differently, it's that POC are treated differently. Their actions are judged differently by people in power/authority figures, and average citizens.

 

[ABM]

Im sure the video has been posted that addressed this, but would you want to switch places with the average black person or other POC, ABM?

Like, if tomorrow you woke up and instead of ABM the white guy living in the south, you were ABM, a black guy living in Nashville, would you be like "nothing has changed, I'm good."?

Same job, same house, marriage, etc...but you were no longer white but were black. Would you welcome that? Do you think you'd be treated the same by others?

And if not, why not?

This isn't to say YOU treat POC differently, it's that POC are treated differently. Their actions are judged differently by people in power/authority figures, and average citizens.

Actually, I've thought it about it a lot over the course of my life. I had already shared a bunch about my life as an early teenager (and that letter by my sister I shared here). What I didn't share there was the fact that, indeed, I was abused by a number of the Black kids (mostly girls) while going to that church. Kind of reverse-racism if you will. They hit and spit on me. It was a large reason I left the church (and Christianity in general) at age 13. The really cool thing is, we reconciled years later. In fact, December of last year when we visited Portland for Christmas with the fam. Lots of tears and hugs.




Hey, do you remember this book? I never read it, but always wanted too..

Black Like Me, first published in 1961, is a nonfiction book by white journalist John Howard Griffin recounting his journey in the Deep South of the United States, at a time when African-Americans lived under racial segregation. Griffin was a native of Mansfield, Texas, who had his skin temporarily darkened to pass as a black man. He traveled for six weeks throughout the racially segregated states of Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Arkansas, and Georgia to explore life from the other side of the color line. Sepia Magazine financed the project in exchange for the right to print the account first as a series of articles.

Griffin kept a journal of his experiences; the 188-page diary was the genesis of the book. When he started his project in 1959, race relations in America were particularly strained. The title of the book is taken from the last line of the Langston Hughes poem "Dream Variations".
In 1964, a film version of Black Like Me, starring James Whitmore, was produced.[1] A generation later, Robert Bonazzi published a biographical book about Griffin, these events, and his life: Man in the Mirror: John Howard Griffin and the Story of Black Like Me (1997).

 

[julius]

Actually, I've thought it about it a lot over the course of my life. I had already shared a bunch about my life as an early teenager (and that letter by my sister I shared here). What I didn't share there was the fact that, indeed, I was abused by a number of the Black kids (mostly girls) while going to that church. Kind of reverse-racism if you will. They hit and spit on me. It was a large reason I left the church (and Christianity in general) at age 13. The really cool thing is, we reconciled years later. In fact, December of last year when we visited Portland for Christmas with the fam. Lots of tears and hugs.

Hey, do you remember this book? I never read it, but always wanted too..

Black Like Me, first published in 1961, is a nonfiction book by white journalist John Howard Griffin recounting his journey in the Deep South of the United States, at a time when African-Americans lived under racial segregation. Griffin was a native of Mansfield, Texas, who had his skin temporarily darkened to pass as a black man. He traveled for six weeks throughout the racially segregated states of Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Arkansas, and Georgia to explore life from the other side of the color line. Sepia Magazine financed the project in exchange for the right to print the account first as a series of articles.

Griffin kept a journal of his experiences; the 188-page diary was the genesis of the book. When he started his project in 1959, race relations in America were particularly strained. The title of the book is taken from the last line of the Langston Hughes poem "Dream Variations".
In 1964, a film version of Black Like Me, starring James Whitmore, was produced.[1] A generation later, Robert Bonazzi published a biographical book about Griffin, these events, and his life: Man in the Mirror: John Howard Griffin and the Story of Black Like Me (1997).

so...is there an answer to my question in that somewhere?

 

[ABM]

so...is there an answer to my question in that somewhere?

The answer to your question is no. I wasn't born in Haiti, either. We're talking an ENTIRELY story there....and I certainly wasn't happy with Trump's remarks related to their country at large - even though, I do believe he was referring to their (lack of) government..and not the people at large.

 

[julius]

The answer to your question is no. I wasn't born in Haiti, either. We're talking an ENTIRELY story there....and I certainly wasn't happy with Trump's remarks related to their country at large - even though, I do believe he was referring to their (lack of) government..and not the people at large.

So why is your answer no?

 

[ABM]

So why is your answer no?

Because, for all intents and purposes, Blacks are treated differently than Whites in this country. You know that, and I know that. It's once of the reasons I pointed out upstream in this thread that real social change begins in our homes, communities, and schools.

 

[julius]

Because, for all intents and purposes, Blacks are treated differently than Whites in this country. You know that, and I know that. It's once of the reasons I pointed out upstream in this thread that real social change begins in our homes, communities, and schools.

So you admit that blacks are treated differently, you (I assume) admit they've had a different experience of what it means to be an "American" and thus show patriotism different than you, but you continue to pass of judgement of others based on the fact you're thinking your way (the white way) is the correct way.

Interesting.

 

[ABM]

So you admit that blacks are treated differently, you (I assume) admit they've had a different experience of what it means to be an "American" and thus show patriotism different than you, but you continue to pass of judgement of others based on the fact you're thinking your way (the white way) is the correct way.

Interesting.

That's bullcrap. Go back and read the number of comments I've made in this thread.

 

[UncleCliffy'sDaddy]

Actually, I've thought it about it a lot over the course of my life. I had already shared a bunch about my life as an early teenager (and that letter by my sister I shared here). What I didn't share there was the fact that, indeed, I was abused by a number of the Black kids (mostly girls) while going to that church. Kind of reverse-racism if you will. They hit and spit on me. It was a large reason I left the church (and Christianity in general) at age 13. The really cool thing is, we reconciled years later. In fact, December of last year when we visited Portland for Christmas with the fam. Lots of tears and hugs.

View attachment 31886


Hey, do you remember this book? I never read it, but always wanted too..

Black Like Me, first published in 1961, is a nonfiction book by white journalist John Howard Griffin recounting his journey in the Deep South of the United States, at a time when African-Americans lived under racial segregation. Griffin was a native of Mansfield, Texas, who had his skin temporarily darkened to pass as a black man. He traveled for six weeks throughout the racially segregated states of Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Arkansas, and Georgia to explore life from the other side of the color line. Sepia Magazine financed the project in exchange for the right to print the account first as a series of articles.

Griffin kept a journal of his experiences; the 188-page diary was the genesis of the book. When he started his project in 1959, race relations in America were particularly strained. The title of the book is taken from the last line of the Langston Hughes poem "Dream Variations".
In 1964, a film version of Black Like Me, starring James Whitmore, was produced.[1] A generation later, Robert Bonazzi published a biographical book about Griffin, these events, and his life: Man in the Mirror: John Howard Griffin and the Story of Black Like Me (1997).

My paternal grandfather (my maternal grandfather was a mean spirited, racist alcoholic fuck) gave my brothers and I that book in paperback form (along with Soul On Ice by Dick Gregory) when were 10 or 11 years old. He told us to read them and then we were going to have a discussion. So we did....and we did. They were real eye openers (and took some time for young kids to plow through). But I always appreciated that he had put stuff like that in our path. That grandfather was the perfect counterpart to the other (asshole) grandfather.....

 

[julius]

That's bullcrap. Go back and read the number of comments I've made in this thread.

don't be dissin the American flag".

Thats your words, right?

"I agree with drew!"

Also your words, right?

Because what Colin did, wasn't disrespecting the flag.

This too?

"I saw the video. Hand-over-chest is honoring. Always has been. Kneeling is an effective antithesis/protest to that stance. Nonetheless, Drew spoke from the heart and I respect that."

Those are your words, right? Because you basically are passing judgement on how someone else is allowed to be patriotic or express themselves.

"Personally, I don't think turning your back (kneeling, or whatever) on the emblem that stands for the sacrifices that were made for our freedom (Yes, we're ALL free! I mean, we could've been born in China or North Korea, or...) is the best way to bring recognition to racial equality and social justice. I believe there can be other more appropriate ways to accomplish this."

Yours again, right? Because you're, again, telling someone else who has a totally different experience in the US, to abide by how you have experienced being an American. You're also telling someone how they're supposed to react to oppression (when historically speaking, you are among the least oppressed group in the history of the US).

"I just know that our American Flag is all over the place - cemeteries, public civic buildings, private buildings, schools, homes, you name it. I just hate seeing it seemingly dishonored in this matter. But, whatever."

"seemingly" based on your world view, not that of others.

"Not me. This flag thing goes way back with me. It's just really sad to me that it (the American flag) now is considered some type of lighting rod that seemingly is suppose to be making some other type of statement."

"other" non white statement...

"Every President since LBJ to Lincoln has had to deal with this racism pandemic. And now our American Flag is the fix-it solution? Hmmmm. IMO, the cure begins in our homes and our schools. It's a GREAT place to start and I believe needs more emphasis. I posted a personal letter from my sister in another thread regarding my mom & dad. The way I was brought up has EVERYTHING to do with how I treat others - white, black, brown, or otherwise. That said, I think I'll post it again here just because"

Who runs the schools....(hint: it's the government). Who has historically been racist in a lot of it's laws, beliefs, and actions? (hint: it's the government). Who runs the police? (hint: it's not our homes).

"Well, I certainly missed that memo." (regarding what the flag means to a lot of people around the country and the world).

No kidding, you see the flag as all that is right and pure about the country, and have never experienced what it's like to have fought for the country in a war only to come back and see "blacks only" and "whites only" signs, etc.

Soooooo...these players are taking a knee. Are they doing anything with that? Or is this simply an act they'll carry out until somebody else figures out how to correct this issue?

I'd love it if the player associations got involved and helped develop player programs - speaking in schools, community service, and the like. These players are advantaged - much more than you and me - so it would be great if they took their plea to another level."

You seem to be playing into the idea that they are just talking and no actions. The players do speak in schools, do stuff in the community "and the like".

I do care. But, if someone is gonna take the time/effort to protest, wouldn't it be great if they also took the time/effort to help find solutions? What does that have to do with somebody simply placing their hand over their heart and honoring, both, our country and those who have sacrificed to help make us the greatest nation on earth

Again, so you're not basing what you consider patriotism based on your own personal experience and not allowing anyone who experiences it differently to express it, right?

So, protesting is the answer. Way to take me back to the 60's, "man".

When you've taken away any voice that people have and have oppressed them for generations, yes.

Meanwhile, you can keep on thinking protests - in and of themselves - are the answer. Good luck with that.

Live outside of your bubble, please.

What I AM saying is, if you're going to the effort to protest, why not back it up with other efforts (such as Dame's)? I mean, in this context, we're talking about highly privileged individuals. Much more highly privileged than any of us here. I can guarantee that. Why would they NOT take that privilege, extrapolate that productively within their respective communities (if not collectively), and set an incredible example....as opposed to taking a knee for taking a knee's sake? I'm sure many are. My point is generally speaking.

taking a knee for the sake of a taking a knee is so dismissive of anyone eles's American experience.

What I said was, rather than simply taking a knee, why not model what it stands for....especially since you have all the material and time resources to do anything you want to do in life? Kids want to emulate these guys. Take them to a higher ground.

When you are denied access to the higher ground in the first place...

Professional athletes are a highly recognized entity. Such as movie and/or rock stars, as it were. I'm simply advocating that these NFL players use their platform in a means beyond taking a knee at any given football game. OK, so they take a knee. How does that effect social change in and of itself. These guys are effective role models. They're not average Joe's on the streets of our nation's cities.

You seem to be forgetting that they're doing it already, and what makes you the judge on how they should protest or elicit change? They've tried for generations to effect social change in the country.

I think that's enough evidence to show that you really shouldn't have told me to go back and read your comments. Your comments were nothing but a bunch of white privilege on display.