OT Don't Be Dissin' The American Flag

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ABM said:
Allen Robinson is saying essentially much of the same things I've been (ongoing) relating in this thread. He's a Black NFL player. Apparently, I'm an intolerable, privileged White boy. Therein lies the difference.....I guess.
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That's what you took from the article? Because you have grossly misunderstood what he was saying or what the article was about. He's talking about whether or not the NFL will "allow" players to take a knee during the national anthem, not the stuff you were talking about. He's talking about wanting change to occur instead of having to stand pat at continue taking a knee/the NFL ignoring the issue.

He was talking about what steps the NFL will do to address the systemic racism that offers in the NFL. He wasn't talking about how the changes need to only be done at home because they're issues of the "heart".


Funny, though, that you didn't quote this part of the article.
"Back then it was just like made about one situation, about the military, and that's what everybody was focusing on," Danny Trevathan added. "‘People are disrespecting the flag, disrespecting the military ..."

"So it wasn't about that. It was about something bigger than that issue. It was about police brutality and the way we treat people. Right now, I feel like we are taking a different stand because people are sick of it. It's not just black people. This is not a black issue. This is a racial war."
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Did you bother to read the entire article? Because it really doesn't support what you said.
 
lawai'a said:
i agree with the goals established by your suggestions, but am not convinced about the practicalities. i have stated in past opinions that i believe opportunity to be one of the fundamental building blocks to an equitable solution for many of society's ills. many of your suggestions address this in some manner, yet, especially in relation to the drug war, you haven't convinced me that it will go away on it's own quite so simply.
because of the very nature of the problem, the size and scope of it's influence, we need a much broader approach that will include a continued police participation if for no other reason than to protect the citizens of the communities impacted most severely by the violence. the organizations that profit from the trade are unlikely to disappear if for no other reason than the enormous profits involved in the enterprise. the importation alone requires a federal level organization to interdict because neither a city nor state has the authority to act so. the sub culture is so ingrained and has been for so long that imho, the localized changes you have suggested alone will have only a small impact on the problems that communities face concerning organized drug importation,distribution and sales. i like them as a starting point but feel they will not be adequate.
the incarceration of individuals needs to be addressed first. the drug court model needs to be implemented on a national level, both by the states and feds. i have witnessed its success as an alternative solution that works on the community levels that you suggest. the for profit incarceration model needs to be changed. the monies this system generates has undo influence on legislation in all levels of governing. unfortunately rural communities that rely on the institutions will be negatively impacted in very real economic terms. how will we address these concerns? it needs to be an important component to the solutions proposed in order to make sure we are not creating an even more divided nation. would tougher sentencing of the importation and organizational ends help?
it seems even after incarceration, the leaders of the organizations retain control and therefor power of these structures. what do we do? the nations that are exporting the products are extremely poor, exasperating the problem and impacting the forced migration of individuals trying to escape the violence that the drug industry creates there. the drug war would appear to be too big for even a single nation as large and influential as the USA to solve simply on its own at the community level.
i love your suggestions but can't see them impacting the problem significantly on thier own because it is too large for individual communities to address. unfortunately we as a nation seem to be abrogating responsibility in trying to make positive changes in the societies around the globe with our foreign policy. it is a very tangled web to unravel in order to make changes.
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Thanks for the detailed, thought-out response.

A couple things that I'd like to clarify:

1. I'm not making any definitive policy prescriptions. The reason I used the word "maybe" so often is because I don't think there are any certain answers, but I think these are some of the questions we should be asking when we think about safety and how we address it.

2. I don't think anything in this sphere is "easy," let alone the drug war. I wasn't trying to imply that a mere change in direction makes it disappear. It'll probably never disappear completely, but the way we've been prosecuting has arguably yielded nothing at all.

I don't think my suggested directions are complete solutions. They are, as you said, starting points. By investing more and more into the armed enforcement end of things, we're asking for a more violent society--as crime gets worse, we create larger and larger forces with greater and greater capacity for violence. And, perhaps worse, we create a force that has a constant siege mentality--they start viewing the populous around them as the enemy they're surrounded by, rather than the people they're supposed to be helping. My post was meant to suggest that we need to rethink enforcement. We should go well beyond what I suggested, as you say--but we need to consider that maybe we're not using police correctly, for the correct jobs, and we're using them in lieu of preventative measures.
 
julius said:
That's what you took from the article? Because you have grossly misunderstood what he was saying or what the article was about. He's talking about whether or not the NFL will "allow" players to take a knee during the national anthem, not the stuff you were talking about. He's talking about wanting change to occur instead of having to stand pat at continue taking a knee/the NFL ignoring the issue.

He was talking about what steps the NFL will do to address the systemic racism that offers in the NFL. He wasn't talking about how the changes need to only be done at home because they're issues of the "heart".


Funny, though, that you didn't quote this part of the article.


Did you bother to read the entire article? Because it really doesn't support what you said.
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Well, duhh! And he went on to discuss moving on from here - regardless of the approach. That's exactly what I was relating. Sure, I had my feelings relating to what some of those next steps might be, as as well as the inherent issues. Either way, simply taking a knee might be a bit ineffective - at this point.

BTW, I also discussed what the NFL might do to address the issues at hand, as well. I suggested the players association get involved, continue to cultivate and grow community programs, and the like. That's the nitty-gritty stuff that can begin to help heal issues of the heart, and so on.
 
Minstrel said:
Thanks for the detailed, thought-out response.

A couple things that I'd like to clarify:

1. I'm not making any definitive policy prescriptions. The reason I used the word "maybe" so often is because I don't think there are any certain answers, but I think these are some of the questions we should be asking when we think about safety and how we address it.

2. I don't think anything in this sphere is "easy," let alone the drug war. I wasn't trying to imply that a mere change in direction makes it disappear. It'll probably never disappear completely, but the way we've been prosecuting has arguably yielded nothing at all.

I don't think my suggested directions are complete solutions. They are, as you said, starting points. By investing more and more into the armed enforcement end of things, we're asking for a more violent society--as crime gets worse, we create larger and larger forces with greater and greater capacity for violence. And, perhaps worse, we create a force that has a constant siege mentality--they start viewing the populous around them as the enemy they're surrounded by, rather than the people they're supposed to be helping. My post was meant to suggest that we need to rethink enforcement. We should go well beyond what I suggested, as you say--but we need to consider that maybe we're not using police correctly, for the correct jobs, and we're using them in lieu of preventative measures.
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yours is an easy like, as i agree with you.
 
ABM said:
Apparently, I'm an intolerable, privileged White boy.
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let's play the victim card eh? I don't think of you any differently than I do many of my relatives who hold similar views.....this isn't about personality...it's about clarity in govt and policies that represent a vast melting pot of americans….I don't think you have as much in common with Trump as you do with most Blazer fans actually...but you do like the golly gee whiz it's not my fault spin...and you have selective ethical filters when it comes to politics and religion it seems.....I definitely have filters but I tryy to own them proudly...we are allowed to have and voice strong opinions and those are mirrored throughout the media....you either engage it or you don't..personally I"m about done with this political campaign season..bring on the vote...I'm here to encourage you to vote against Trump period...it's like quitting smoking...you won't regret it
 
riverman said:
let's play the victim card eh?
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Not at all. I'm simply using other poster's views of me. They said it, not me. It's OK, my responses were tongue-in-cheek in nature.
 
riverman said:
let's play the victim card eh? I don't think of you any differently than I do many of my relatives who hold similar views.....this isn't about personality...it's about clarity in govt and policies that represent a vast melting pot of americans….I don't think you have as much in common with Trump as you do with most Blazer fans actually...but you do like the golly gee whiz it's not my fault spin...and you have selective ethical filters when it comes to politics and religion it seems.....I definitely have filters but I tryy to own them proudly...we are allowed to have and voice strong opinions and those are mirrored throughout the media....you either engage it or you don't..personally I"m about done with this political campaign season..bring on the vote...I'm here to encourage you to vote against Trump period...it's like quitting smoking...you won't regret it
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Great post.

Funny you should say that. I quit smoking cold turkey after 14 years of pack-a-day.
 
ABM said:
Great post.

Funny you should say that. I quit smoking cold turkey after 14 years of pack-a-day.
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It's the toughest thing I ever fought in my 66 years....many battles...I finally won many years ago
 
riverman said:
It's the toughest thing I ever fought in my 66 years....many battles...I finally won many years ago
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I know I‘Ve related it before but....after smoking off and on (mostly on) for 40+ years and failing to quit for any length of time, I simply read a book on quitting smoking (while smoking as I was reading). As soon as I was done reading, I was done smoking. Literally the easiest thing I’ve ever done. It’s all psychological and nothing more...
 
UncleCliffy'sDaddy said:
I know I‘Ve related it before but....after smoking off and on (mostly on) for 40+ years and failing to quit for any length of time, I simply read a book on quitting smoking (while smoking as I was reading). As soon as I was done reading, I was done smoking. Literally the easiest thing I’ve ever done. It’s all psychological and nothing more...
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alcohol would get me back everytime...I'd quit for half a year...drink scotch and throw darts, have a cigar and be right back on them....it was giving booze up that was easy for me and then smoking became easy as well....I think they're connected
 
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This thread reminds me....."Where is barfo? Can't talk politics and patriotism without the resident commie pinko!" Somebody check his basement or bail him out of jail damnit!
 
riverman said:
This thread reminds me....."Where is barfo? Can't talk politics and patriotism without the resident commie pinko!" Somebody check his basement or bail him out of jail damnit!
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He's been seen over in the Dow Jones thread.
 
riverman said:
alcohol would get me back everytime...I'd quit for half a year...drink scotch and throw darts, have a cigar and be right back on them....it was giving booze up that was easy for me and then smoking became easy as well....I think they're connected
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Haven't smoked a cigarette in 561 days. Best change I've made in my life since ditching my ex-girlfriends.

As far as the booze goes, that's a whole different ballgame.
 
Shaboid said:
Haven't smoked a cigarette in 561 days. Best change I've made in my life since ditching my ex-girlfriends.

As far as the booze goes, that's a whole different ballgame.
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To my Irish forefathers there's no concept of alcoholic so me going sober is sort of like taking vows of celibacy and joining the priesthood...now I'm the world's designated driver..
 
riverman said:
To my Irish forefathers there's no concept of alcoholic so me going sober is sort of like taking vows of celibacy and joining the priesthood...now I'm the world's designated driver..
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Once I'm confident to go out in public again I will be calling you for a ride home when I'm too intoxicated.
 
ABM said:
Just wait until cities begin defunding their respective police departments. The push is on...

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ABM, do you know what defunding means?
 
ABM said:
Great post.

Funny you should say that. I quit smoking cold turkey after 14 years of pack-a-day.
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I tapered off.
I increased my smoking gradually from one cigarette to about a pack a day over the course of a year. That means I smoked an average of half a pack a day for one year. It was then that I said to myself "What are you doing? This is stupid." and I quit.
 
Lanny said:
ABM, do you know what defunding means?
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Less police resources, at any rate. Money, instead, going to socially-driven channels, I suppose.
 
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