Everybody Loves Draymond

[e_blazer]

Okay, not everyone in the NBA loves Draymond Green, the person/player, in a literal sense, but it sure seems that NBA coaches and executives have fallen in love with smaller PFs & Cs who can shoot from the perimeter and play tough defense. We saw evidence of this in the draft this year with only 4 traditional centers being taken in the first round, and Collins being the only one in the top 10 picks.

Some of the fascination with small-ball big men is undoubtedly due to the success that the Warriors have achieved using their small-ball "death" lineup, with Draymond playing center and running the opponents into the ground. I think the bigger part is simply the dearth of quality offensive-minded big men playing right now. I'd love to have seen what the Olajuwon-era Rockets, Abdul-Jabbar-era Lakers, Malone-era 76ers, or Walton-era Blazers would have done to the small-ball Warriors lineup. The Warriors may hit 50% from three, but that doesn't beat 100% from 2 feet when the Rockets throw the ball in to Olajuwon and let him have his way with Draymond every time down the court. I'm hoping that a couple of years down the road that Nurkic and Collins have developed their games to the point that other NBA teams are scrambling to try to find bigs who can contend with the Blazers' own version of a big man "death" lineup.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

Yes, everyone loves 3&D, and for good reason.

The Draymon prototype is especially appealing because he adds passing and rebounding to the mix.
If things go well, Zach Collins is our "Draymon." Better 3, not as good D. He can rebound, hit FTs...

 

[Minstrel]

We have plenty of good offensive big men right now--DeMarcus Cousins, Karl-Anthony Towns, Anthony Davis, Nikola Jokic, etc. The reality is that the Warriors don't play the "death lineup" all that much, as a percentage. It's just a lineup configuration that can destroy a lot of other types of lineups. Against someone like Olajuwon or Robinson or Kareem, they'd use more traditional centers like Pachulia. The Warriors would obviously lose that match-up (much as the Jordan/Pippen Bulls would have) but win elsewhere.

The idea that having a good big man or center is the key to destroying the Warriors is very exaggerated in my opinion. They're not extremists who play 6'6'' guys at center all, or even most, of the game.

 

[Sweetriverphil]

Draymond is a unique talent for sure. But what's really remarkable is his ability to scream at referees and taunt other players without receiving technical fouls. This valuable skill has allowed him to swing the momentum of any game by simply yelling until he gets free throws. Can't wait for his hall of fame speech.

 

[e_blazer]

We have plenty of good offensive big men right now--DeMarcus Cousins, Karl-Anthony Towns, Anthony Davis, Nikola Jokic, etc. The reality is that the Warriors don't play the "death lineup" all that much, as a percentage. It's just a lineup configuration that can destroy a lot of other types of lineups. Against someone like Olajuwon or Robinson or Kareem, they'd use more traditional centers like Pachulia. The Warriors would obviously lose that match-up (much as the Jordan/Pippen Bulls would have) but win elsewhere.

The idea that having a good big man or center is the key to destroying the Warriors is very exaggerated in my opinion. They're not extremists who play 6'6'' guys at center all, or even most, of the game.

The common denominator with all of the good offensive big men that you list is that they play on crappy teams (or at least have been crappy up until this summer's roster upgrades) where they've had little support from other offensive threats. I agree that the Warriors don't play the death lineup much, but they like to throw it in to mess up an opponent at crunch time. I don't think that would have worked against the teams that I listed.

 

[trailblazer18]

Draymond is a unique talent for sure. But what's really remarkable is his ability to scream at referees and taunt other players without receiving technical fouls. This valuable skill has allowed him to swing the momentum of any game by simply yelling until he gets free throws. Can't wait for his hall of fame speech.

This is actually very true. It may seem childish to complain about a player getting his way or whatever, but if he was treated the same as Sheed, he would have 40+ technical fouls. He would miss multiple games. He wouldn't be this great motivator that he is perceived as now. He would be seen as a cancer and maybe event traded or let go. If he was called for deserved T's, the Warriors would lose momentum in games and would lose more often. We already saw that when he does get called for it and misses a playoff game - the result was they lost the finals essentially.

So I fully agree!

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Green is more than 3-and-D. He's also got serious PG skills. He's a point-PF. The only other one of those in the league is LeBron.

 

[BBert]

Draymond is a unique talent for sure. But what's really remarkable is his ability to scream at referees and taunt other players without receiving technical fouls. This valuable skill has allowed him to swing the momentum of any game by simply yelling until he gets free throws. Can't wait for his hall of fame speech.

QFT

 

[Natebishop3]

Draymond is a unique talent for sure. But what's really remarkable is his ability to scream at referees and taunt other players without receiving technical fouls. This valuable skill has allowed him to swing the momentum of any game by simply yelling until he gets free throws. Can't wait for his hall of fame speech.

If only it was just screaming and tauning..... the dude assaults people and gets away with it. He should have a criminal record for the shit he does on a basketball court.

 

[Natebishop3]

[Wookie] Fuck Draymond Green! [/Wookie]

 

[chzbrgr]

Okay, not everyone in the NBA loves Draymond Green, the person/player, in a literal sense, but it sure seems that NBA coaches and executives have fallen in love with smaller PFs & Cs who can shoot from the perimeter and play tough defense. We saw evidence of this in the draft this year with only 4 traditional centers being taken in the first round, and Collins being the only one in the top 10 picks.

Some of the fascination with small-ball big men is undoubtedly due to the success that the Warriors have achieved using their small-ball "death" lineup, with Draymond playing center and running the opponents into the ground. I think the bigger part is simply the dearth of quality offensive-minded big men playing right now. I'd love to have seen what the Olajuwon-era Rockets, Abdul-Jabbar-era Lakers, Malone-era 76ers, or Walton-era Blazers would have done to the small-ball Warriors lineup. The Warriors may hit 50% from three, but that doesn't beat 100% from 2 feet when the Rockets throw the ball in to Olajuwon and let him have his way with Draymond every time down the court. I'm hoping that a couple of years down the road that Nurkic and Collins have developed their games to the point that other NBA teams are scrambling to try to find bigs who can contend with the Blazers' own version of a big man "death" lineup.

Collins is not a "traditional center" he's gunna play the 4 and of course GM's are looking for another Draymond type he's a 2 time champ and just won DPOY after being second round pick. The fascination is because he broke stereotypes and GM's are thinking about their jobs and not wanting to miss out on the next Draymond (someone overlooked because of perceived physical flaws). Positionless basketball doesnt mean all centers are obsolete just that size no longer dictates position and role. If a player has the chops they can play any role at any position.

 

[e_blazer]

Collins is not a "traditional center" he's gunna play the 4 and of course GM's are looking for another Draymond type he's a 2 time champ and just won DPOY after being second round pick. The fascination is because he broke stereotypes and GM's are thinking about their jobs and not wanting to miss out on the next Draymond (someone overlooked because of perceived physical flaws). Positionless basketball doesnt mean all centers are obsolete just that size no longer dictates position and role. If a player has the chops they can play any role at any position.

I think all of that is fine and dandy...until the next really dominant big man comes along. Draymond definitely has the chops to play C against most, if not all, of the current crop of centers in the NBA. Hakeem would destroy him.

 

[Minstrel]

The common denominator with all of the good offensive big men that you list is that they play on crappy teams (or at least have been crappy up until this summer's roster upgrades) where they've had little support from other offensive threats. I agree that the Warriors don't play the death lineup much, but they like to throw it in to mess up an opponent at crunch time. I don't think that would have worked against the teams that I listed.

Yeah, it probably wouldn't work so well in crunch time, but it would probably generate a crazy +/- during periods when that kind of center hit the bench. There are always periods when the Warriors can unleash that sort of lineup--they use it as a specialized weapon.

It would be fascinating to watch them play other teams from history.

 

[Natebishop3]

Yeah, it probably wouldn't work so well in crunch time, but it would probably generate a crazy +/- during periods when that kind of center hit the bench. There are always periods when the Warriors can unleash that sort of lineup--they use it as a specialized weapon.

It would be fascinating to watch them play other teams from history.

I actually think the 99-2000 Blazers would have fared well against them. We had some really good defenders on that team. Pippen, Augmon, Greg Anthony, Sheed.... Smitty would have posted up Klay and Curry all day. I think Sheed would have done well on Durant.... and Sabonis would have had a field day.

 

[chzbrgr]

I think all of that is fine and dandy...until the next really dominant big man comes along. Draymond definitely has the chops to play C against most, if not all, of the current crop of centers in the NBA. Hakeem would destroy him.

If Hakeem Olijowon was still in the league then yes the warriors would have to address their interior defense some (maybe) but they still win 60+ games and a few chips regardless. THEY HAVE TWO MVP's 4 ALLSTARS AND A DPOY. For all of Hakeem's skill and size he could not keep up the with warriors in transition.

 

[Minstrel]

I actually think the 99-2000 Blazers would have fared well against them. We had some really good defenders on that team. Pippen, Augmon, Greg Anthony, Sheed.... Smitty would have posted up Klay and Curry all day. I think Sheed would have done well on Durant.... and Sabonis would have had a field day.

Yeah, it was actually a team built for today more than it was a team for defeating Shaq (though I still maintain that Sabonis' big body with Wallace and Pippen as double-teamers made for some of the best defense played against him). You could run a very switchy defense with Pippen, Wallace, Smith, Augmon, etc. Sheed launching from outside would be great.

 

[Boob-No-More]

The "death" line up is great on offense, but it lacks any kind of serious rim protection. That's what cost them the finals in 2016. After Bogut went down, Kerr played the death line up way too much and it became a layup drill for LeBron and company. CLE outscored GSW by an average of 17 points in the paint per game in the last three games of that series to come back from being down 3-1.

The key to beating their death line up is to not get caught up in trying to out Warrior the Warriors and start firing up 3-pointers left, right and center. That just leads to long rebounds and Draymond pushing the ball up the floor and finding an open KD, Klay or Steph for an uncontested 3 before the defense can get set. That's how they go on all those 23-3 runs. The key to beating their death line up is to slow things down and attack the rim relentlessly. Punish them in the paint for not having a rim protector. CLE did that without even having a traditional low post scoring threat. It was LeBron attacking the rim and Thompson and Love crashing the offensive glass.

You need the right personnel to do it, but when GSW goes small, you go big. Nurk helps us out there. Who guards the beast on the block in their small ball line up? Who keeps him off the offensive glass? Don't try to beat them at their game. Beat them at yours.

BNM

 

[Natebishop3]

Yeah, it was actually a team built for today more than it was a team for defeating Shaq (though I still maintain that Sabonis' big body with Wallace and Pippen as double-teamers made for some of the best defense played against him). You could run a very switchy defense with Pippen, Wallace, Smith, Augmon, etc. Sheed launching from outside would be great.

And that was before we dealt Jermaine or BG. We could have gone big, or we could have gone small. I really miss that team.

 

[Minstrel]

Green has always been a good rim protector and Durant has proven to be one, too. The original death lineup didn't have a lot of rim protection, but the new, improved version is probably above average when it comes to rim protection.

If Nurkic proves to be an inside scoring powerhouse, it's true that no one in that lineup can push him off his spot, so they'll likely confine usage of the "death lineup" to periods when he's off the floor and use players like Pachulia and the rest of their center rotation against him.

 

[e_blazer]

If Hakeem Olijowon was still in the league then yes the warriors would have to address their interior defense some (maybe) but they still win 60+ games and a few chips regardless. THEY HAVE TWO MVP's 4 ALLSTARS AND A DPOY. For all of Hakeem's skill and size he could not keep up the with warriors in transition.

I'm not saying that the Warriors aren't a damned good team. You're right, if there's a team that has an Olajuwon-caliber center, that's at most 4 losses for the Warriors and they still win 60 plus games. What I am saying is that when that next amazing center comes along, other NBA teams are going to have to make adjustments to try to deal with him. Right now, they're all busy trying to adjust to the Warriors and true centers aren't at a premium. The pendulum will swing the other way when the next stud center comes along. It would be nice if Nurkic could become that guy. Unfortunately, while I think he's very good, I don't think he has quite the talent level to define the next generation of centers.

 

[Minstrel]

And that was before we dealt Jermaine or BG. We could have gone big, or we could have gone small. I really miss that team.

Yeah. I'm actually someone who generally liked Whitsitt, but giving up on Jermaine O'Neal was a killer. I don't really agree with people who claimed that Strickland or Schrempf "killed chemistry" and the Grant-for-Kemp deal while not good wasn't ultimately that big a deal (Kemp bit, but Grant wasn't that great the rest of his career). Losing O'Neal for someone as low impact as Dale Davis made a huge difference.