Financial aid to illegal immigrants

[AgentDrazenPetrovic]

Is this where she got the 8 million number from? Only 1.4 million of them were actually used.

 

[Denny Crane]

Is this where she got the 8 million number from? Only 1.4 million of them were actually used.

1.9M out of 12M, if married makes it 3.8M out of 12M, if one child makes it 5.7M, if two children makes it 7.6M.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/16/n...loans using tax identification numbers&st=cse

In the 2005 tax year, the last for which such data is available, 1.9 million returns were filed with the primary taxpayer’s using an individual taxpayer number, known as an ITIN, up 30 percent from 2004.


Applications for the numbers spiked last year, with 1.5 million new ITINs issued through the beginning of November, more than any full year since the program started.

In 2005 alone, more than $5 billion in tax liability — the total owed, including money withheld from paychecks during the year — was reported in the 2.9 million returns that listed at least one person with an ITIN, she said. And between 1996 and 2003, such filers reported nearly $50 billion of tax liability.

 

[blazerboy30]

http://www.reason.org/news/show/122411.html

Not sure if you were posting to agree with me or disagree with me, but this article proves what I said.

If ~2/3 of illegals are paying taxes, then, as I said, illegal aliens are NOT paying as much tax as a citizen earning the same amount of money.

 

[Denny Crane]

And there's this:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4176/is_20070413/ai_n19018650/

In 2004, the IRS got 7.9 million W-2s with names that didn't match a Social Security Number.

More than half were from California, Texas, Florida and Illinois, states with large immigrant populations, leading experts to believe they likely represent the wages of illegal immigrants.

Even immigrants who use ITINs to file taxes are forced to make up a Social Security Number when they get a job.

 

[AgentDrazenPetrovic]

We should give them all full-ride scholarships!

 

[barfo]

Not sure if you were posting to agree with me or disagree with me, but this article proves what I said.

If ~2/3 of illegals are paying taxes, then, as I said, illegal aliens are NOT paying as much tax as a citizen earning the same amount of money.

That would depend on how many citizens are paying taxes.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

Not sure if you were posting to agree with me or disagree with me, but this article proves what I said.

If ~2/3 of illegals are paying taxes, then, as I said, illegal aliens are NOT paying as much tax as a citizen earning the same amount of money.

The only people who make the same amount of money are (VERY) part-time minimum wage types.

Something to chew on. In the USA, the population is 300M yet the workforce is 120M. So 180M don't work, and likely don't pay taxes.

As far as federal income taxes go, at least the lowest 40% of earners pay $0 (or get refunds).

 

[AgentDrazenPetrovic]

That would depend on how many citizens are paying taxes.

barfo

well, just multiply them if they're married...and then multiply them again for every kid.. voila! 250% of americans pay taxes!

 

[blazerboy30]

One study from several years ago says the illegals cost us $10B/yr. Whether the study is conclusive or accurate is a question that is begged.

I'd say that study is questionable. As I mentioned, in California, we have to tack on an extra 10% to our budget every year to cover unexpected costs associated with illegal aliens. We're talking ~$12 billion per year, for California alone.

In any case, $10B works out to about $1.60/week per person in the workforce. Per capita, it's $.33/week. I think tax on a gallon of gasoline in California might be $1.60...

Small price to pay for 10M+ workers who work below minimum wage level. You certainly benefit $.33/week for cheaper agricultural products alone.

advocate.

Wait, what?

You want to quote a number for how much illegals "cost" us, but then assume that the study doesn't account for any gains that we get due to them?

Either:

1) The study you are referring to has already taken into account the "benefit" I / we get from them being here and now you are double-dipping on the "benefits".

or

2) The study you are referring to is garbage and useless since it clearly isn't an exhaustive study.

 

[barfo]

I'd say that study is questionable. As I mentioned, in California, we have to tack on an extra 10% to our budget every year to cover unexpected costs associated with illegal aliens. We're talking ~$12 billion per year, for California alone.

Unexpected costs? Why are they unexpected?

Wait, what?

You want to quote a number for how much illegals "cost" us, but then assume that the study doesn't account for any gains that we get due to them?

Either:

1) The study you are referring to has already taken into account the "benefit" I / we get from them being here and now you are double-dipping on the "benefits".

or

2) The study you are referring to is garbage and useless since it clearly isn't an exhaustive study.

Wait, what? There are lots of reasons why a study would only report on costs and not benefits. It doesn't make the study garbage, it just means you can't use it to compute the net effect.

Either way, one should go look the study up instead of making assumptions about what it does or doesn't include.

barfo

 

[blazerboy30]

That would depend on how many citizens are paying taxes.

barfo

Perhaps I should say "working citizens"

 

[AgentDrazenPetrovic]

I think Latrell Spreewell should become an illegal citizen!

Solves two problems at once!

 

[blazerboy30]

Unexpected costs? Why are they unexpected?

Sorry, do you want to use a different term? There isn't a line item in the budget for "covering our ass from illegal alien costs".

Wait, what? There are lots of reasons why a study would only report on costs and not benefits. It doesn't make the study garbage, it just means you can't use it to compute the net effect.

barfo

Everything is about TCO. Total cost. Includes all costs and benefits.

So yes, something that doesn't try to include all costs and benefits is attempting to hide the facts and be misleading.

 

[Denny Crane]

I'd say that study is questionable. As I mentioned, in California, we have to tack on an extra 10% to our budget every year to cover unexpected costs associated with illegal aliens. We're talking ~$12 billion per year, for California alone.




Wait, what?

You want to quote a number for how much illegals "cost" us, but then assume that the study doesn't account for any gains that we get due to them?

Either:

1) The study you are referring to has already taken into account the "benefit" I / we get from them being here and now you are double-dipping on the "benefits".

or

2) The study you are referring to is garbage and useless since it clearly isn't an exhaustive study.

1) The study is the only one I can find that backs your position that they cost more in public services than they contribute in taxes.

2) The study covers govt. expenditures vs. govt. revenues for these people.

3) The state of California is providing way more services than the law requires. It's in the govt.'s hands to spend discretionary funds as it sees fit.

4) The 14th amendment states that any person born on US soil is a citizen; the $12B claim or $10.5B or $6B claim I've seen includes children of illegal immigrants who are rightfully citizens.

 

[barfo]

Everything is about TCO. Total cost. Includes all costs and benefits.

So, in your mind a study that compared costs of, say, medical syringes available from various suppliers would be completely worthless, because it didn't factor in the possible economic effects of saving (or killing) people with said syringes?

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

Sorry, do you want to use a different term? There isn't a line item in the budget for "covering our ass from illegal alien costs".

There are no unexpected costs.

You can surely budget $4B for education and $500M for incarceration and $1B for medical services.

Those are California's mandated expenses and the $4B isn't technically for illegals.

 

[blazerboy30]

So, in your mind a study that compared costs of, say, medical syringes available from various suppliers would be completely worthless, because it didn't factor in the possible economic effects of saving (or killing) people with said syringes?

barfo

Depends who the customer is.

If you are talking about a public program to provide medical syringes, then yes, the possible economic effects should be studied.

 

[barfo]

Sorry, do you want to use a different term? There isn't a line item in the budget for "covering our ass from illegal alien costs".

I just don't know what you meant. You said that every year, you had to put in an extra 10% that wasn't in the budget for unexpected costs. That suggests that the problem is with the budgeting, not the aliens. The number of aliens isn't growing so fast that it is impossible to budget for.

barfo

 

[blazerboy30]

There are no unexpected costs.

You can surely budget $4B for education and $500M for incarceration and $1B for medical services.

Those are California's mandated expenses and the $4B isn't technically for illegals.

Hey, I didn't write the budget. I'm just relaying information that I read here in California. Would it be better if they just built the cost into the other expenditures to hide it from the people?

I think it should be widely published how much we need to budget for illegal aliens.

 

[Denny Crane]

Hey, I didn't write the budget. I'm just relaying information that I read here in California. Would it be better if they just built the cost into the other expenditures to hide it from the people?

I think it should be widely published how much we need to budget for illegal aliens.

Is the LA Times (a big california newspaper) widely published?

http://www.latimes.com/news/columnists/la-me-cap2-2009feb02,0,418500.column

 

[blazerboy30]

I just don't know what you meant. You said that every year, you had to put in an extra 10% that wasn't in the budget for unexpected costs. That suggests that the problem is with the budgeting, not the aliens. The number of aliens isn't growing so fast that it is impossible to budget for.

barfo

We need to get you on the state budget committee ASAP.

On second thought, I've seen some of your thoughts on spending. Nevermind.

 

[Sug]

Hmm, interesting. I wasn't aware that all of these illegal immigrants paid all of these taxes on the up and up. I guess I missed the part where the US government issued all of these people who are in this country illegally social security numbers. Would you mind explaining those "fucking facts" to me?

Thanks a bunch.

You really don't understand?? LMAO that is very ignorant. Please do some research Maxie.

 

[barfo]

We need to get you on the state budget committee ASAP.

On second thought, I've seen some of your thoughts on spending. Nevermind.

So, are you contradicting what I said, or just getting in a shot?
Not that you were serious, but I'm not eligible to be on your state budget committee. Sounds like they could use help from someone though.

barfo

 

[maxiep]

You really don't understand?? LMAO that is very ignorant. Please do some research Maxie.

Well, so far I've read that people who commit a crime commit a further one and steal social security numbers. They then report what they wish. I'm going to make a further assumption based on previous evidence of their respect for our laws that they don't report all their income.

But really these are all side issues. The real issue is that illegal immigration hurts everyone. It hurts the United States because it creates an underground economy we aren't able to tax very well. It hurts the United States because it makes us less safe. Border control is a large part of what allows a nation to defend itself.

It hurts the average citizen because illegal immigrants take jobs that other Americans could fill. It hurts the average citizen because many of these illegal immigrants pay for entry to the country by becoming drug mules. Also the MS-13 is almost entirely illegal immigrants. Policing them and having them fill our justice system hurts the average citizen because it drives up their taxes. Having them use ambulances and emergency rooms for the most basic of illnesses because they don't have health insurance drive up the costs of our health insurance premiums.

It hurts the country these people come from. The people that are motivated to seek a better life in the US are generally the most enterprising. Basically, the entrepreneurial class of those countries are coming north to roof your house. If they stayed in their own country, they could legitimately help build their economy. Instead, their citizens receive dollars which aren't taxed. It leaves the country without a tax base and dependent on these funds like an addict on The Horse.

Finally it hurts the illegal immigrant. Because they can't go to the police, they are able to be exploited. I guess we should change the lyrics to the Star Spangled Banner to "Home of the free and the land of the sweatshop". They live at the whim of the employer. They live at the whim of the local gang. It's akin to the way Italians lived at the turn of the 20th century. Instead of the Black Hand, we have the MS-13 and the Latin Kings. It's an entire community living in fear.

What you really have here is a slave economy. Robert Fogel's study of those economies show that only a very few benefit and most are hurt by the social structure. It's one hell of a price to pay for the illusion of cheap lettuce and landscaping. All you've really done is transfer costs around. In fact, given the externalities involved, we may be paying more than if we set up a massive worker visa program and tracked these people.

 

[Sinobas]

So you would like to get rid of the Coast Guard, protection for the President and his family, law enforcement agencies combating human smuggling and child exploitation, the integrity of our financial currency and the enforcement of immigration laws? That's brilliant. Welcome to ignore.

You want to sexually molest puppies. Welcome to MY ignore list.

 

[AgentDrazenPetrovic]

I don't get this whole recent phenomenom of posters informing others they are ignoring them.

lame.

 

[bodyman5001]

I swear that I should just find out where Bill Gates lives and break in his house and start living there. I just want a better life. He is so rich he won't even notice anything I need to survive. My food costs are miniscule. I know Bill probably has plenty of house keepers, but I will spend six hours a day on my hands and knees scrubbing the corners of the walls of his house. That is a job people who live there won't do.

Got that covered.

I don't know about illegals stealing everything they own but pretending that they don't have 5 people per room living in their house is silly. My next door neighbor is an illegal, he told me himself. When the housing boom was going on he was remodeling the house and landscaping everything nicely. How he owns a house...I don't know.

Now that the house he bought for 200 grand is worth about 85 thousand dollars it has junk laying all around and weeds that Jack could use to climb into the sky and find a giant. The house across the street sold recently, it is about 900-1100 square feet. I don't know the immigration status of the new owners, but I can tell you that all 12 people that live there sure like to sit on the front porch and drink beer at 10 in the morning most days.

I really hope that people who don't live near these people think that they know what the truth is. You can read liberal websites all you want but I can take you to a Ross store full of Mexicans a few miles from my house and you can witness the disaster zone they create. They throw things on the floor and all six or seven kids run rampant in the aisles. The clothes on the rack look like grass flying from an old fashioned push mower.

Then we can take a 15 minute drive to a nicer part of town and you can walk in an identical Ross except that it is neat and clean and nobody is screaming or running randomly through the store.

Then we can drive back to my part of town and wait until evening. Then we can watch candy colored lowriders with stereos that could shake your fillings out or stop your heart blast at all hours of the night. They will turn it down to yell things at teenage girls walking down the street. Just for a second though, they gotta represent homie. You see them rollin and you a hatin..whatever that means.



If you haven't figured it out yet, I don't give a good God DAMN how much they pay or don't pay or what job they do or don't. I do know one illegal Columbian that works at a shop a friend of mine works at that made well over 50 thousand dollars last year. I know he is illegal because I used to work with him at another shop and he laughed about it all the time. Five bucks and hour is about 50 grand right????????

The cost I wonder about is what it would cost us to round each and every damn one of them up and deport them all. I will volunteer every weekend for the next five years to this cause. I will help modify the retired school buses that I think would do the job and I will drive them to the border each weekend.

I would feel bad for the children born here to these illegal immigrants. They are US citizens by birth and I would feel terrible sending their parents out of the country without them. I would see no reason to remove the child, there has to be plenty of people who want to adopt in this country. I also wouldn't do anything to illegals who were brought here when under the age of 18. I know a few who were brought here as children and they are just as American as anyone I know, they just don't have the paperwork. That is really sad.

It doesn't really matter what I want though, because nobody cares and most Americans have been brain washed to think that having someone poor to clean your hotel room is good for this country. Good for you. Come live in my neighborhood, then see what you think.

 

[toutlaw25]

I don't get this whole recent phenomenom of posters informing others they are ignoring them.

lame.

Why, did someone ignore you?

 

[blazerboy30]

So, are you contradicting what I said, or just getting in a shot?
Not that you were serious, but I'm not eligible to be on your state budget committee. Sounds like they could use help from someone though.

barfo

Not taking a shot. Just joking a bit.

What makes somebody eligible to be on the state budget committee?

 

[maxiep]

What makes somebody eligible to be on the state budget committee?

A love of inventing government programs with no concern of how to pay for them?