Zombie Fire Olshey

[SharpesTriumph]

I feel like I have given Neil a chance.... for 9 years. Same as Stotts.

I get it, we haven't seen Dame/CJ under a different coach. Maybe they'll change their spots. I'm skeptical. CJ is gonna CJ. Dame is gonna Dame. If it was really the coach, would Dame have looked like complete ass on defense in the Olympics? He was basically benched because he couldn't defend. I don't think Billups is going to change that. At least not overnight. Maybe not in a season. We don't have a ton of time to figure this out. If Stotts had been fired several years ago after the Pels series, maybe we could have taken the time to try to make this work, but that ship has sailed. Dame is getting old, his patience is wearing thin, and this is not the time to try to make this work.

CJ needs to go and Neil won't do it.

Some good points and I agree with parts of it. Yes at times its very frustrating.

Dame and CJ have provided a ton of great moments the last 9 years. Of course it would be better if we were contending. Most teams aren't contenders. While Dame is awesome, he isn't a Giannis, LeBron, Kawhi type of impact player either. I think he could lead a team to a title, but he needs better teammates than some of those other stars. Still I'm glad we've got some great years and great playoff moments. Better than all the 1st round losses or lottery trips we had for about 15 years straight.

I'm fine to give the Billups experiment a few months to see where its at. Also I'm interested to see how the 3 guard lineup works. Yes the plus minus numbers are impressive. Norm has a 6'11" winspan. The league has an emphasis on shooting and guard play like never before. There was players such as Kendall Gill that excelled as a starting SF in the 90's. The league is much smaller today. We have some flexibility with Nance off the bench.

But if we get well into the season and the team is close to play in territory Neil needs to look at a major change. Maybe that is a CJ trade. Maybe its trading picks to upgrade a starter to an allstar.

Maybe if none of those can happen, it may be time to start the process of exploring Dame trades. If all those criteria are hit I will be fine with that. But I do agree that now Dame is 31 and we don't have multiple years to plug along with minor changes. Either the team is a few moves away from building a contender or it needs to be torn apart. We will see!

 

[Natebishop3]

This might just be echoing what you just said and I'm surely belaboring a point I've made far too many times but if Stotts was the problem, why in the fuck does Neil get a pass for keeping him for 9 seasons? I just don't get that. Obviously I've wanted CJ traded for a long long time now and never thought a Dame/CJ back court made sense but I know I differ with @BonesJones on that one.

The good news for some in here is that it's looking more and more like you'll get to see if it was just Terry Stotts holding this roster back or if the roster had a lot to do with the mediocrity as well. The thing that will never make any sense is that when Neil said that Stotts was the problem that Neil wasn't fired on the spot for supporting the problem for 9 fucking years.

Just one strike in a long line of mistakes for him that should have led to his firing along with Stotts.

 

[Tince]

This might just be echoing what you just said and I'm surely belaboring a point I've made far too many times but if Stotts was the problem, why in the fuck does Neil get a pass for keeping him for 9 seasons? I just don't get that. Obviously I've wanted CJ traded for a long long time now and never thought a Dame/CJ back court made sense but I know I differ with @BonesJones on that one.

The good news for some in here is that it's looking more and more like you'll get to see if it was just Terry Stotts holding this roster back or if the roster had a lot to do with the mediocrity as well. The thing that will never make any sense is that when Neil said that Stotts was the problem that Neil wasn't fired on the spot for supporting the problem for 9 fucking years.

Incredibly well put.

I've never understood how someone could claim coaching is such a critical issue, that Stotts sucked, yet are willing to excuse Olshey for allowing such a bad coach to stay for 9 years.

 

[Natebishop3]

Incredibly well put.

I've never understood how someone could claim coaching is such a critical issue, that Stotts sucked, yet are willing to excuse Olshey for allowing such a bad coach to stay for 9 years.

The only excuse that would make sense is if Dame was tied to Stotts. If the organization felt that they couldn't fire him because of Dame. If the rumors were true that Dame went to bat for Stotts after the Pels series, they might have felt that they couldn't fire him.

 

[wizenheimer]

The only excuse that would make sense is if Dame was tied to Stotts. If the organization felt that they couldn't fire him because of Dame. If the rumors were true that Dame went to bat for Stotts after the Pels series, they might have felt that they couldn't fire him.

LOL...obviously management has the #1 priority as keeping Dame happy. That's why the starting unit and roster is so drastically different this year after Dame said it wasn't good enough

first it was Paul Allen forcing all the bad decisions on Olshey. Now it's Dame forcing all the bad decisions on Olshey. Olshey just can't catch a break

 

[Buffalo Custard]

This may sound horribly cynical, but there is no doubt in my mind that Olshey wanted a rookie head coach because it gave him a built in excuse to sit on his hands and natter on about patience. And if things get too hot? Dame won't have had the time to get too attached to this coach.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

This may sound horribly cynical, but there is no doubt in my mind that Olshey wanted a rookie head coach because it gave him a built in excuse to sit on his hands and natter on about patience. And if things get too hot? Dame won't have had the time to get too attached to this coach.

A rookie head coach who, apparently, didn't know even the first thing about coaching 18 months ago, and routinely got whooped in pickup games because he didn't understand the concepts of roster fit and chemistry.

 

[BonesJones]

As I've stated before, I have zero issues with you personally. I take you at your word that you gave Stotts a chance, but you must admit you belabored his short-comings for years (some of which I agreed with you on), which is what prompted my response when you suggested people except the shortcomings of Olshey (or CJ).

While I think Olshey has much more control of the teams shortcomings than any coach does, I have ZERO issue with you being ok with rolling back the same starting 5 we ended last season with. I'm not ok with it, which I've explained already, but that's what makes this community better than most: It's not one big echo chamber.

I probably won't stop pointing out if I notice you contradict a previous stance you had and I'm 100% ok if you or anyone else does the same to me. I will also continue to try and not make it personal because like you, I want to be able to agree/disagree about hoops and nothing else

So you want to have a whole ass argument about how what I said a year ago. I don't think you're right but I'm not gonna type a bunch of paragraphs arguing about what was said a year ago, that's a waste of time.

 

[Tince]

So you want to have a whole ass argument about how what I said a year ago. I don't think you're right but I'm not gonna type a bunch of paragraphs arguing about what was said a year ago, that's a waste of time.

I certainly don't want you to waste your time, productive is key! Again, I'm sorry this upset you, that was not my intention.

 

[Tince]

The only excuse that would make sense is if Dame was tied to Stotts. If the organization felt that they couldn't fire him because of Dame. If the rumors were true that Dame went to bat for Stotts after the Pels series, they might have felt that they couldn't fire him.

LOL...obviously management has the #1 priority as keeping Dame happy. That's why the starting unit and roster is so drastically different this year after Dame said it wasn't good enough

first it was Paul Allen forcing all the bad decisions on Olshey. Now it's Dame forcing all the bad decisions on Olshey. Olshey just can't catch a break

My response was going to be very similar to Wiz's. Poor Olshey hasn't had a real chance in 9 years to acquire enough capital to obtain a legit all-star... though he was able to lose one very quickly, so there's that.

 

[Idog1976]

I certainly don't want you to waste your time, productive is key! Again, I'm sorry this upset you, that was not my intention.

Ive discovered there is zero point interacting with certain posters as they become highly aggressive if you question any aspect of what they say. They also are aggressive when they disagree. It seems some folks can dish it out and use a bully pulpit, but are thin skinned in response. You're one of the most reasonable voices on here. Don’t let others bully you and then take advantage of your better nature. Just don’t bother interacting with them, because reason, nuance and humility just isn’t in the DNA of some folks.

 

[Fairly-Hard]

My response was going to be very similar to Wiz's. Poor Olshey hasn't had a real chance in 9 years to acquire enough capital to obtain a legit all-star... though he was able to lose one very quickly, so there's that.

I wonder if Olshey had traded Aldridge in his last year what the response would have been. Remember up until Wes got injured LMA was all about breaking all of Drexler's records.
As I remember a whole lotta people were on board with trading him. I got in many conversations about the issue. I was against trading him but 20/20 has me saying i was very wrong obviously.

 

[BonesJones]

Ive discovered there is zero point interacting with certain posters as they become highly aggressive if you question any aspect of what they say. They also are aggressive when they disagree. It seems some folks can dish it out and use a bully pulpit, but are thin skinned in response. You're one of the most reasonable voices on here. Don’t let others bully you and then take advantage of your better nature. Just don’t bother interacting with them, because reason, nuance and humility just isn’t in the DNA of some folks.

I'm pretty sure Tince can handle himself and doesn't need your grandiosity to help him out.

 

[BonesJones]

Ive discovered there is zero point interacting with certain posters as they become highly aggressive if you question any aspect of what they say. They also are aggressive when they disagree. It seems some folks can dish it out and use a bully pulpit, but are thin skinned in response. You're one of the most reasonable voices on here. Don’t let others bully you and then take advantage of your better nature. Just don’t bother interacting with them, because reason, nuance and humility just isn’t in the DNA of some folks.

You're the same guy who said if Dame wants someone on the team and if anyone questions it then they think they know more than him and are basically crazy, and now you're sitting here grandstanding.

Hah.

 

[Fairly-Hard]

You're the same guy who said if Dame wants someone on the team and if anyone questions it then they think they know more than him and are basically crazy, and now you're sitting here grandstanding.

Hah.

Your responses were measured and well though out as well as @Tince 's responses.
No need to fuel this?
Only reason i'm butting in is because i was reading your conversation and was enjoying it.
Apologize for sticking my nose in here.

 

[Tince]

I wonder if Olshey had traded Aldridge in his last year what the response would have been. Remember up until Wes got injured LMA was all about breaking all of Drexler's records.
As I remember a whole lotta people were on board with trading him. I got in many conversations about the issue. I was against trading him but 20/20 has me saying i was very wrong obviously.

This is a great point. In defense of Olshey (I will do this at times), he probably would've taken crap for trading LMA for a lesser player.

I'm not well connected in the NBA, I only have two sources that are any good (one current player, one front office- neither are in Portland). However, I was told in March of 2015 by one of these sources who had direct contact with LMA that he was going to the Spurs that off-season. Yes there was talk of staying or going to Phoenix, but I do not believe any of this to be legit; more of a smoke screen to cover up that this was arranged ahead of time.

Having said all that... if I knew with high confidence that LMA was going to the Spurs, Olshey certainly should've had a source or two to telling him the same thing. In that situation, you have to get something for him, even if it makes the fans mad. You tell Paul Allen the LMA is out and it's the smart long-term play.

 

[Tince]

Your responses were measured and well though out as well as @Tince 's responses.
No need to fuel this?
Only reason i'm butting in is because i was reading your conversation and was enjoying it.
Apologize for sticking my nose in here.

The beauty of a message board is that not only can anyone jump into a conversation, but that's exactly what this medium is designed for. While I don't need anyone to come to my defense, I welcome the opinions of others, no matter if they're in line with my point-of-view or not.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

This is a great point. In defense of Olshey (I will do this at times), he probably would've taken crap for trading LMA for a lesser player.

I'm not well connected in the NBA, I only have two sources that are any good (one current player, one front office- neither are in Portland). However, I was told in March of 2015 by one of these sources who had direct contact with LMA that he was going to the Spurs that off-season. Yes there was talk of staying or going to Phoenix, but I do not believe any of this to be legit; more of a smoke screen to cover up that this was arranged ahead of time.

Having said all that... if I knew with high confidence that LMA was going to the Spurs, Olshey certainly should've had a source or two to telling him the same thing. In that situation, you have to get something for him, even if it makes the fans mad. You tell Paul Allen the LMA is out and it's the smart long-term play.

March 2015 was after the final trade deadline LMA was a Blazer.... Neil couldn't trade LaMarcus then.

Yes everything with that 2015 team destructed when I tore my Achilles, but that was after the trade deadline.

That Blazer team was more complete than the recent WCF team so I don't see how anyone can fault Neil for keeping that group together. It's one of the only times (along with the last two summers) Neil traded away a draft pick for a win now player.

 

[Tince]

March 2015 was after the final trade deadline LMA was a Blazer.... Neil couldn't trade LaMarcus then.

Yes everything with that 2015 team destructed when I tore my Achilles, but that was after the trade deadline.

That Blazer team was more complete than the recent WCF team so I don't see how anyone can fault Neil for keeping that group together. It's one of the only times (along with the last two summers) Neil traded away a draft pick for a win now player.

You're correct that I heard this after the deadline. However, the odds that LMA made the choice, told my guy, and my guy called me right away to tell me (he didn't) is basically zero. By the time it got to me, that info certainly had been out there for a while. It's hard for me to think Olshey had no clue about this.

To your point, maybe Olshey thought adding Affalo to a good team was going to be enough to make us an elite contender and it would convince LMA to stay. Kinda sounds exactly like his strategy with Dame right now doesn't it?

 

[Hoopguru]

You're correct that I heard this after the deadline. However, the odds that LMA made the choice, told my guy, and my guy called me right away to tell me (he didn't) is basically zero. By the time it got to me, that info certainly had been out there for a while. It's hard for me to think Olshey had no clue about this.

To your point, maybe Olshey thought adding Affalo to a good team was going to be enough to make us an elite contender and it would convince LMA to stay. Kinda sounds exactly like his strategy with Dame right now doesn't it?

Aldridge was heel bent on going back to Texas, imo. His mother I believe had cancer and he had a son down there too. After none years he deserved to go where he wanted too, its just his leading Neil, Paul & Fans on about how he wanted to really stay here?

 

[sheed30]

Incredibly well put.

I've never understood how someone could claim coaching is such a critical issue, that Stotts sucked, yet are willing to excuse Olshey for allowing such a bad coach to stay for 9 years.

Wait wait, wasn’t Stotts gonna get canned after the Pelicans series and it was Dame who went to bat to keep him and supported him and wanted to run it back?

and the following season we went to the Western Conference finals so Stotts job was safe after that and then the covid season after that where we have tons of injuries.

I’m just saying, you guys like to put all the fault on Neil and I don’t think that should be the case here.

 

[wizenheimer]

To your point, maybe Olshey thought adding Affalo to a good team was going to be enough to make us an elite contender and it would convince LMA to stay. Kinda sounds exactly like his strategy with Dame right now doesn't it?

I hadn't though about that but I suppose there some similarities. Nance = Afflalo? Different timing of the trades but both gave up "undesired" asset(s) plus a 1st round pick. Both trades bring back average level 6th men that kind of look better than they are because the Blazers were so weak on the bench

the 1st round pick Portland gave up was the 19th pick in the 2016 draft:

19 Malik Beasley
20 Caris LeVert
27 Pascal Siakam
29 Dejounte Murray
36 Malcolm Brogdon

that was one of the rare times that Olshey was under enormous pressure to upgrade the roster because of the the Aldridge situation. I'd think Paul Allen was pushing him too. Paul isn't around anymore, and I'd think it's pretty obvious that Jody Allen isn't pushing for anything except for maybe minimal luxury tax

 

[blazerkor]

Wait wait, wasn’t Stotts gonna get canned after the Pelicans series and it was Dame who went to bat to keep him and supported him and wanted to run it back?

and the following season we went to the Western Conference finals so Stotts job was safe after that and then the covid season after that where we have tons of injuries.

I’m just saying, you guys like to put all the fault on Neil and I don’t think that should be the case here.

Yeah, then there was the weakest WCF run possible and then injuries but I'm pretty sure barely making the playoffs only to get gentlemens swept out by the Lakers should have been a final straw for Stotts... if Neil thought he was doing his own job well. The fact is that the playoff record that the Stotts/Olshey regime has put together is unacceptable and both should have been fired but Neil threw Stotts under the bus, said his roster wasn't the problem and as far as the starting lineup, it looks like he's ready to run it back. So even if I think giving a guy an entire decade as a GM with one questionably good playoff run is fucking stupid... here we are. I think his lack of major changes will result in another mediocre season and might even result in us missing the playoffs but I hope I'm wrong. If I'm not, it better be Neil gone at the end of this season and hopefully the city and Chauncey can keep Dame here with a new GM unafraid to take big swings.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Aldridge was heel bent on going back to Texas, imo. His mother I believe had cancer and he had a son down there too. After none years he deserved to go where he wanted too, its just his leading Neil, Paul & Fans on about how he wanted to really stay here?

Aldridge changes what he wants on a whim. Last year he abruptly retired for good. Now he unretired and is playing again. He said one summer as a Blazer he wanted to be in the all time record books. Then months later he wanted to go to a new team close to home.

He is just a fickle guy that, ya know, changes what he wants every few months. Maybe Neil should have expected that could happen and trade him. But it sure seemed likely to me and others back then Aldridge would continue to feel like the double 40 point playoff games hero in Portland, and set team records, and would've signed long term. He was a free agent right after the team fell apart and then the Spurs had a more enticing offer.

If Aldridge always wanted to go to a Texas team why wouldn't he have just requested a trade months or years earlier and Neil accommodate? He would've gone back home immediately.

Aldridge changes what he wants on a whim and it changed to leaving the Blazers when he's a free agent. It was a gamble Neil took, and he lost. Other teams like the Thunder gambled with Paul George and won. The Raptors gambled with Kawhi and won and lost. I'm fine with that gamble based off what we knew at the time. I believe that was a gamble that could have got the team closer to a title. Its funny some of the same people criticizing Neil for not taking risks now then go and criticize him for when he took a risk.

 

[blazerkor]

Aldridge changes what he wants on a whim. Last year he abruptly retired for good. Now he unretired and is playing again. He said one summer as a Blazer he wanted to be in the all time record books. Then months later he wanted to go to a new team close to home.

He is just a fickle guy that, ya know, changes what he wants every few months. Maybe Neil should have expected that could happen and trade him. But it sure seemed likely to me and others back then Aldridge would continue to feel like the double 40 point playoff games hero in Portland, and set team records, and would've signed long term. He was a free agent right after the team fell apart and then the Spurs had a more enticing offer.

If Aldridge always wanted to go to the Spurs why wouldn't he have just requested a trade months or years earlier and Neil accommodate? He would've gone back home immediately.

Aldridge changes what he wants on a whim and it changed to leaving the Blazers when he's a free agent. It was a gamble Neil took, and he lost. I'm fine with that gamble based off what we knew at the time. I believe that was a gamble that could have got the team closer to a title. Its funny some of the same people criticizing Neil for not taking risks now then go and criticize him for when he took a risk.

It was definitely Neil's job to know LaMarcus and if he was so prone to making unpredictable decisions (not your job or any fan's, Neil's). So, Olshey should have mitigated our risk and traded him at the deadline. The fact is in a market like this you can not afford to let an all star walk for nothing and that is what Olshey did and he should have been fired for that. Then he followed it up with a spending spree on a bunch of nobodies. The fact that the dude isn't fired is absolutely crazy.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

It was definitely Neil's job to know LaMarcus and if he was so prone to making unpredictable decisions (not your job or any fan's, Neil's). So, Olshey should have mitigated our risk and traded him at the deadline. The fact is in a market like this you can not afford to let an all star walk for nothing and that is what Olshey did and he should have been fired for that. Then he followed it up with a spending spree on a bunch of nobodies. The fact that the dude isn't fired is absolutely crazy.

I disagree that Neil had to trade LaMarcus if he thought he might walk. If LaMarcus might walk, its a risk, and Neil's job was to evaluate the cost and benefit of such a risk. Neil shouldn't avoid all risks. Maybe your opinion and preference is to avoid all risks, others opinion can correctly differ greatly on that.

The 2016 offseason I look at as a separate issue, I do think he should've been fired for the Meyers and Turner contracts, those were indefensible at the time and even worse as the years went on.

 

[wizenheimer]

The 2016 offseason I look at as a separate issue, I do think he should've been fired for the Meyers and Turner contracts, those were indefensible at the time and even worse as the years went on.

the Crabbe contract was even worse. Not only did Portland pay Crabbe 36 million for one season of basketball with a PER under 12.0 and a BPM of -1.3, they also assumed a 2.45M stain on their salary cap for 7 years. They'd be under the tax line right now if they hadn't matched that idiot contract

 

[tester551]

the Crabbe contract was even worse. Not only did Portland pay Crabbe 36 million for one season of basketball with a PER under 12.0 and a BPM of -1.3, they also assumed a 2.45M stain on their salary cap for 7 years. They'd be under the tax line right now if they hadn't matched that idiot contract

But PA 'made' him to it....

 

[blazerkor]

I disagree that Neil had to trade LaMarcus if he thought he might walk. If LaMarcus might walk, its a risk, and Neil's job was to evaluate the cost and benefit of such a risk. Neil shouldn't avoid all risks. Maybe your opinion and preference is to avoid all risks, others opinion can correctly differ greatly on that.

The 2016 offseason I look at as a separate issue, I do think he should've been fired for the Meyers and Turner contracts, those were indefensible at the time and even worse as the years went on.

Neil fucked up that risk reward evaluation and it was a huge failure that should have gotten him fired. If you're the Lakers GM, you can afford that risk but not here. Sorry. I'm about taking risks that have mitigated downsides. Like I would take the Simmons risk because once he's on a team that he isn't actively trying to leave, he'll recoup some of his value so even if we have to eventually flip him, it will be at a gain. The idea that you give Neil a pass on all of this shit is really weird to me but to each their own I guess.

 

[TBpup]

You're correct that I heard this after the deadline. However, the odds that LMA made the choice, told my guy, and my guy called me right away to tell me (he didn't) is basically zero. By the time it got to me, that info certainly had been out there for a while. It's hard for me to think Olshey had no clue about this.

To your point, maybe Olshey thought adding Affalo to a good team was going to be enough to make us an elite contender and it would convince LMA to stay. Kinda sounds exactly like his strategy with Dame right now doesn't it?

There was plenty out there. I was told by someone the season before (and before the trade deadline) that they were 95% sure he was gone based on some things they knew about him and his family situation. There just seems no way that the Blazer FO wasn't aware of this.