Notice From My Cold Dead Hands...... (2 Viewers)

[Phatguysrule]

Maybe we should just change the name of this thread to "Thoughts and prayers"?

Since that's all anybody seems intersted in...

 

[Fairly-Hard]

I know it's expensive. The kids are worth it. Probably an additional option we should consider.

https://americanmilitarynews.com/20...t-school-in-america-with-these-tech-features/

In the wake of the mass shooting at an elementary school in Uvalde, Texas, a 2018 video resurfaced this week showcasing an advanced security system at an Indiana High School dubbed “Safest School in America,” that’s designed to make it harder for armed gunmen to attack.

In 2018, NBC News highlighted Southwestern High School in Indiana, which had implemented a $400,000 security system that includes bullet-resistant classroom doors, and live-streamed security cameras that can provide local emergency responders with a by-the-minute look inside a shooting.

The system includes more advanced features, like a push-button fob that can be worn around each teacher’s neck, which they can use to trigger the security alarms for the entire school if they see a potential security risk. Each classroom is also paired with a box affixed with a switch that allows the classroom to indicate whether they are in immediate danger, or whether they are safe and secure.

The security system also makes use of a comprehensive array of security cameras that allow both school staff and emergency services to monitor a security situation in real-time. Southwestern High School’s security system is accessible to their local sheriff’s office, located about 10 miles away.

In addition to tracking where a potential gunman might be inside a school, those monitoring the security cameras can also trigger a blinding and disorienting smokescreen, called a “hot zone,” around a suspect.

The security system, known as the Integrated School Defense System (ISDS), was developed by NETTALON, a Fredericksburg, Virginia-based company. In a 2018 interview with CNBC, NETTALON President Don Jones said

 

[Mediocre Man]

So no interest in actually discussing solving the problem then, huh?

That's too bad...

There is a simple way to solve the problem, LIKE EVERY OTHER COUNTRY HAS. No debates!!

 

[crandc]

Assault weapons are being explicitly tied to manhood and more subtly to whiteness.

Republicans are variously blaming:
Teaching biology in school
Single parents
Covid restrictions
No longer forcing students to pray in school
Critical race theory
Wind power
"Emasculation" of men
Gay people getting married
Legal abortion and birth control

Anything missing???
Oh yeah

 

[Fairly-Hard]

I decided i am going "Wild Boar" hunting. Figured I'd get all the info i can get and the first thing I'm looking at is which of my trusty guns i should use?
Well I went to Google first. Sure i know that is usually "Fake News" but i figured I'd give it a shot.
Here's your Top 5

• Winchester Model 94 in . 30-30.
• Winchester Model 70 in . 30-06.
• Marlin Classic Model 1895 . 45-70.
• Marlin Model 444
• AAC Micro 7 in 300 AAC Blackout.

Interesting???

I figure that can't be all so i keep looking.
https://www.realtree.com/big-game-hunting/articles/top-10-hog-guns

Realtree mentions the Browning as #1 but still has the old "Bolt Action" Marlin and Savage as 3 and 4 respectively.
Decided to do some looking at Bill Jordan. Owner of "Realtree". Yep he has a large holding in Browning and is a member of the NRA.

Now here's Outdoor Life. They put the 30-30 as number #1 but they had an interesting view of the AR type weapons. Said they were real good for hunting from a helicopter. Interesting.

https://www.outdoorlife.com/great-hog-hunting-rifles-handguns-tactics/


I sure hope this has made you more comfortable with the fact that children have been slaughtered again. We wouldn't want to get sidetracked on that fact right?

 

[Phatguysrule]

There is a simple way to solve the problem, LIKE EVERY OTHER COUNTRY HAS. No debates!!

If it's so simple why hasn't it been done?

 

[Phatguysrule]

I decided i am going "Wild Boar" hunting. Figured I'd get all the info i can get and the first thing I'm looking at is which of my trusty guns i should use?
Well I went to Google first. Sure i know that is usually "Fake News" but i figured I'd give it a shot.
Here's your Top 5

• Winchester Model 94 in . 30-30.
• Winchester Model 70 in . 30-06.
• Marlin Classic Model 1895 . 45-70.
• Marlin Model 444
• AAC Micro 7 in 300 AAC Blackout.

Interesting???

I figure that can't be all so i keep looking.
https://www.realtree.com/big-game-hunting/articles/top-10-hog-guns

Realtree mentions the Browning as #1 but still has the old "Bolt Action" Marlin and Savage as 3 and 4 respectively.
Decided to do some looking at Bill Jordan. Owner of "Realtree". Yep he has a large holding in Browning and is a member of the NRA.

Now here's Outdoor Life. They put the 30-30 as number #1 but they had an interesting view of the AR type weapons. Said they were real good for hunting from a helicopter. Interesting.

https://www.outdoorlife.com/great-hog-hunting-rifles-handguns-tactics/


I sure hope this has made you more comfortable with the fact that children have been slaughtered again. We wouldn't want to get sidetracked on that fact right?

Excellent post! Now, what prevents those guns from being used in mass shootings?

Or do you only care about it when AR models are used?

 

[Fairly-Hard]

It's interesting that you have to keep misrepresenting my position in order to engage. Doesn't that make you question how strong your case is?

First- You engaged me. Not the other way around. I happen to agree wholeheartedly with your mental awareness and health issues stance as well as the protection and greater security stance. We are not far apart at all.
Second- I didn't misrepresent you because i didn't quote you. I discussed the first 20 pages of the thread.
Third- Seems you are the only and loudest poster on this thread who seems to be against bringing forth common sense gun laws. Doesn't that make you question how strong your case is?

 

[Fairly-Hard]

Or do you only care about it when AR models are used?

That is not and has never been the debate. As much as you continue to want to go there. Common Sense Gun laws and the reduction of military type weapons is what the conversation is about.
Again. Discussing what caliber, look, Model or even name is not the point here.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Assault weapons are being explicitly tied to manhood and more subtly to whiteness.

Republicans are variously blaming:
Teaching biology in school
Single parents
Covid restrictions
No longer forcing students to pray in school
Critical race theory
Wind power
"Emasculation" of men
Gay people getting married
Legal abortion and birth control

Anything missing???
Oh yeah

That's true, that the "guns=man = warrior" culture that the NRA has been pushing is toxic, and violent crime problem in this country. When it was about responsibility and safety it was a legitimately good thing.

Luckily it's illegal to actually buy assault weapons in the US without being subjected to a very strict and expensive permitting process which allows the ATF to randomly search your home and property at any time without cause.

 

[Phatguysrule]

That is not and has never been the debate. As much as you continue to want to go there. Common Sense Gun laws and the reduction of military type weapons is what the conversation is about.
Again. Discussing what caliber, look, Model or even name is not the point here.

So the debate isn't about actually reducing the lethality available to kill kids, just changing the look of the weapons that can be used to kill them?

 

[Phatguysrule]

First- You engaged me. Not the other way around. I happen to agree wholeheartedly with your mental awareness and health issues stance as well as the protection and greater security stance. We are not far apart at all.
Second- I didn't misrepresent you because i didn't quote you. I discussed the first 20 pages of the thread.
Third- Seems you are the only and loudest poster on this thread who seems to be against bringing forth common sense gun laws. Doesn't that make you question how strong your case is?

Lol, OK. I'll just stop quoting you so I can make whatever claims I want about your stances... Then it's ok to just switch it up and make false claims that have nothing to do with anything anybody in the thread has said... As well as factually inaccurate info.

Awesome debate tactic. That'll make for a more productive conversation...

Good thing we care about making progress to save children!

 

[Mediocre Man]

If it's so simple why hasn't it been done?

Because republicans

 

[Fairly-Hard]

Here ya go. You post this.

So the debate isn't about actually reducing the lethality available to kill kids, just changing the look of the weapons that can be used to kill them?

Then post this

I'll just stop quoting you so I can make whatever claims I want about your stances... Then it's ok to just switch it up and make false claims that have nothing to do with anything anybody in the thread has said... As well as factually inaccurate info.

Do you see why this is a problem?

Now on this post i quoted you. I would say "I engaged you" on this post.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Here ya go. You post this.


Then post this


Do you see why this is a problem?

Now on this post i quoted you. I would say "I engaged you" on this post.

Right, in response to you using those exact debate tactics. Every time you're proven wrong or don't have an answer you resort to childish and passive aggressive responses.

Yep, I'm happy to throw it right back in your face. I can play that game as well.

If you'll commit to stopping it I will as well.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Because republicans

And that response is why so little progress has been made. Just as bad as the Republicans on this issue, IMO.

And being so illogical convinces people who would otherwise support Democrats to vote for Republicans. It makes Dem candidates seem illogical and untrustworthy.

So they vote to support individual rights.

 

[Mediocre Man]

And that response is why so little progress has been made. Just as bad as the Republicans on this issue, IMO.

And being so illogical convinces people who would otherwise support Democrats to vote for Republicans. It makes Dem candidates seem illogical and untrustworthy.

So they vote to support individual rights.

They literally ARE the reason though.

Less doors? Are you fucking kidding me?

 

[calvin natt]

Guns are the leading cause of death for kids now. Used to be cars. Nobody says remove all guns. Just like nobody said remove all cars. But we made cars safer, said hey don’t drive drunk, etc. We tried to make things better by behavior and the actual car itself. Nobody said “it’s not the cars fault”. Anyway, now guns have taken the reigns as the #1 killer, but the answer is more, bigger, deadlier guns and just keep doing what we’re doing?

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Back to Uvalde, I don't see how that community can ever begin to heal until they disband the current police force and rebuild it from the ground up. New logo, uniforms, officers. Everything. How can you even look at those officers and department without thinking of their inaction on that day?

 

[riverman]

So no interest in actually discussing solving the problem then, huh?

That's too bad...

you keep asking questions that folks have already answered about solving the problem....you just are adamant that it's not possible so what's to discuss? Many people in here have discussed solivng the problem but you've basically taken the NRA stance of not being able to see the advantages of real gun control measures and limitations on ammo...and you keep saying guns are keeping us safe from our own government or the boogie man....here we disagree....it's ok to disagree but people have engaged you repeatedly about it...I sure have at least. It's not personal...it's a topic of controversy..the country hasn't been able to provide an adequate solution...people here are just hoping and suggesting measures..to which your response has been pretty much....it's not possible to enact gun controls and nobody wants it.

 

[Fairly-Hard]

Right, in response to you using those exact debate tactics. Every time you're proven wrong or don't have an answer you resort to childish and passive aggressive responses.

Yep, I'm happy to throw it right back in your face. I can play that game as well.

If you'll commit to stopping it I will as well.

I've told you many times. This conversation simply muddy's the water on the real issue. You know where i stand. If you want to make it about guns "looking Scary" or "caliber of ammunition" or what they are called then you are welcome to do that.
It's not "Throwing it back in my face". It's throwing it in the faces of the families of dead children.

I want common sense gun laws with more extensive background checks and i want to enforce proper storage of those weapons as well as the ammunition they fire. I want all weapons registered and i want a limit to the amount of ammunition that any one person should be able to have as well as a limit to the amount of guns any one person should own. I do not feel there is a need to own rifles with a pistol grip. I want people who own guns to have to pass not only a written test but also a hands on test that shows competency like we had in the military and like they do in places like Sweden that you have used in your examples.

These are not all i want. I also want better access to healthcare and behavioral/mental assistance. I want greater security at schools. I want better law enforcement practices. I want better surveillance systems in place.

It's got nothing to do with what guns are used for Pig hunting but if you want to make it about that then by all means keep posting it. That is your prerogative.

 

[riverman]

Right, in response to you using those exact debate tactics. Every time you're proven wrong or don't have an answer you resort to childish and passive aggressive responses.

Yep, I'm happy to throw it right back in your face. I can play that game as well.

If you'll commit to stopping it I will as well.

you haven't proven anyone wrong here my friend....maybe you should contemplate that...you have proven to yourself that you are justified in your opinion about it...it's ok to disagree but we're not in a court of law with "proof" ...to prove taking the guns away makes us safer we have to live for a while without guns .....until then it's not demonstrable....I'm ready to give that a try because arming the nation in my view isn't making us safer at all. It's really that simple

 

[Fairly-Hard]

you haven't proven anyone wrong here my friend....maybe you should contemplate that...you have proven to yourself that you are justified in your opinion about it..

Exactly.

 

[Phatguysrule]

you haven't proven anyone wrong here my friend....maybe you should contemplate that...you have proven to yourself that you are justified in your opinion about it...it's ok to disagree but we're not in a court of law with "proof" ...to prove taking the guns away makes us safer we have to live for a while without guns .....until then it's not demonstrable....I'm ready to give that a try because arming the nation in my view isn't making us safer at all. It's really that simple

Except I have. Regarding caliber comparison, fire risks of exit only doors, and more.

And then I get childish responses. To which I return, and then it's a problem.

I don't care about proof except when it's needed to further a conversation or debate. But when the response to that evidence is childish, misinformation filled, or even outright false replies it needs to be called out.

Gun rights will be expanded this year and the rallying cry that is going on in here has been failing and losing ground for decades.

As much as you are ready for it to happen, all evidence points to it not happening in this country.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Exactly.

Lol. Right, you know a lot about guns and 30-06 is not considered an equivalent caliber to 7.62, right?

And the same number of doors that only open from the inside increases fire hazards and a multitude of other problems, right?

I guess you were right on the money this whole time...

 

[riverman]

Except I have. Regarding caliber comparison, fire risks of exit only doors, and more.

And then I get childish responses. To which I return, and then it's a problem.

I don't care about proof except when it's needed to further a conversation or debate. But when the response to that evidence is childish, misinformation filled, or even outright false replies it needs to be called out.

Gun rights will be expanded this year and the rallying cry that is going on in here has been failing and losing ground for decades.

As much as you are ready for it to happen, all evidence points to it not happening in this country.

not to me you haven't....a 22 short can kill a person...doesn't matter how big your bullets are....what is the real issue is how many you can discharge in rapid succession. If you think I'm rude and childish well....that's where our conversation ends. Also if you talk to any rescue professionals or firemen they'll tell you a one doored public building is a disaster waiting to happen...if you want to check people at the point of entry you have a gated station entering the grounds with security...it's what you find on any military base but it's not fail safe by any stretch...neither is a locked door....those are pretty easy to breach

 

[Phatguysrule]

I've told you many times. This conversation simply muddy's the water on the real issue. You know where i stand. If you want to make it about guns "looking Scary" or "caliber of ammunition" or what they are called then you are welcome to do that.

It doesn't muddy the water. If you aren't willing to discuss the details you will never make any progress.

It's not "Throwing it back in my face". It's throwing it in the faces of the families of dead children.

Bullshit. Don't try to hide your childish behavior behind those poor children. It's not going to fly with me.

I want common sense gun laws with more extensive background checks and i want to enforce proper storage of those weapons as well as the ammunition they fire.

Yeah, but 30 states in the country don't want that, and the states who have it still have incredibly high rates of gun crime.

So you'll be waiting decades for that, at minimum.

I want all weapons registered

This will never happen. Certainly not in our lifetimes. All signs point things moving thw other direction.

and i want a limit to the amount of ammunition that any one person should be able to have as well as a limit to the amount of guns any one person should own.

This will require a constitutional amendment.

An amendment may be proposed by a two-thirds vote of both Houses of Congress, or, if two-thirds of the States request one, by a convention called for that purpose. The amendment must then be ratified by three-fourths of the State legislatures, or three-fourths of conventions called in each State for ratification.

Let's talk about the likelihood of this happening...

I do not feel there is a need to own rifles with a pistol grip.

How would removing the pistol grip have helped in any of these mass murders?

I want people who own guns to have to pass not only a written test but also a hands on test that shows competency like we had in the military and like they do in places like Sweden that you have used in your examples.

Also would require a constitutional amendment, or at least the Supreme Court to limit the protections of the 2nd. Let's discuss the likelihood of this happening. And what time frame...

These are not all i want. I also want better access to healthcare and behavioral/mental assistance. I want greater security at schools. I want better law enforcement practices. I want better surveillance systems in place.

All reasonable, and I encourage further discussion on these...

It's got nothing to do with what guns are used for Pig hunting but if you want to make it about that then by all means keep posting it. That is your prerogative.

Here we go with more of your childish bullshit. You are the one focusing on that, not me. I brought it up with a link proving that it was 1 of several types of hunting that people use thw AR platform for.

If you are afraid to learn that is your prerogative. I don't hold grudges, but if you keep coming at me with your childish and disrespectful bullshit you're going to get it right back.

 

[Phatguysrule]

not to me you haven't....a 22 short can kill a person...doesn't matter how big your bullets are....what is the real issue is how many you can discharge in rapid succession.

Great, let's discuss this.

If you think I'm rude and childish well....that's where our conversation ends.

I don't think that of you. You haven't displayed that behavior, and I didn't direct that at you.

If it seemed I did then I sincerely apologize.

Also if you talk to any rescue professionals or firemen they'll tell you a one doored public building is a disaster waiting to happen...

Nobody at any time suggested a one doored building in this thread, yet I've had to try and dispel that claim at least 3 times.

This is not conducive to productive conversation.

if you want to check people at the point of entry you have a gated station entering the grounds with security...it's what you find on any military base but it's not fail safe by any stretch...

The details of the security is an interesting conversation and one I'd be interested in having.

My kids school was built in the last 2 years with bullet proof glass, security cameras, and all doors remain locked from the outside at all times. The only way in is with a teachers key cars, or getting buzzed in by thw front desk.

neither is a locked door....those are pretty easy to breach

There is no access to the locking mechanism from outside the door. You'd have to grind your way through the steel doors which would be incredibly loud and take an incredibly long time.

Like 15 minutes... More than enough time to allow police to arrive and to mobilize an armed defense on the inside of that door. Which the attacker would have to enter through a choke point leaving them totally exposed.

Is there another way to breach and outward swinging steel door that your aware of? Explosives?

And again, the school is beautiful. My kids love it. It's nothing like a prison and there are many exits all over the school.

 

[riverman]

My kids school was built in the last 2 years with bullet proof glass, security cameras, and all doors remain locked from the outside at all times. The only way in is with a teachers key cars, or getting buzzed in by thw front desk.

That's great about your kid's school but.....keys can be copied, stolen and obviously teachers can be killed as well as security guard all whom probably carry keys. Also if you time it right and kids are entering or exiting the school in mass....anyone could slip into a building...or if teachers, janitors etc are opening those doors...they are vulnerable to being overpowered and having their keys taken by force....most of these murderers plan things out when they do this. Who is guarding the people with keys? Also who says the janitor isn't the guy with the Soldier of Fortune fantasies about shooting up the workplace? He has keys.....now if he didn't have access to guns...different story

 

[Phatguysrule]

That's great about your kid's school but.....keys can be copied, stolen and obviously teachers can be killed as well as security guard all whom probably carry keys.

True, but you'd still have to enter through the front entrance (the only one with the key sensor), and the front desk can see if you are a person who should have a key.

If prepared for this scenario, especially with some armed staff, I'm comfortable that none of these weak psychos who need to attack children to feel strong would be brazen enough to try and breach it.

And if they did, they would meet sufficient resistance to end the attack.

Also if you time it right and kids are entering or exiting the school in mass....anyone could slip into a building...or if teachers, janitors etc are opening those doors...they are vulnerable to being overpowered and having their keys taken by force....

Sure, it's possible. But there is a significant staff presence outside when school starts. And they notice people who are out of place. Even when I enter with my kids they make sure to address me.

Nobody is sneaking in there with an AR unobserved. The only feasible way would be with a hand gun on your person or in a backpack...