Game Thread GAME# 26: BLAZERS @ NUGGETS - DECEMBER 12, 2019 - THURSDAY, 7:30 PM, TNT

[blazerkor]

Dame drove and got himself caught in the air and tried a desperation pass to Herzonja, who wouldn't have done anything positive even if he got it. Then they hit a 3. Then Dame took a really deep 3 and Ant missed a hot and our defense didn't pick us up and we were toast.

IMO, these are the situations where Dame or CJ really need to work on drawing contact and getting to the line. And I don't want Herzonja ever touching the ball near the bucket after that unnecessary wide-open reverse layup he tried against OKC -- talk about a low-IQ play that really killed our vibe.

Look above your post and see that Dame does draw fouls, CJ really does need to improve on that, you're right.

 

[PCmor7]

What constitutes breaking up this team? Because we lost 7 rotation players this year and in most cases that would constitute a major "rehaul".

To my way of thinking, breaking up a team is when you are jettisoning corps guys and using the resources you acquire to get young, cheap talent.

Who exactly did we let go that we didn't replace with someone as good or better? And who did we let go that we weren't forced to let go because of cap constraints -- that's another part of that equation.

 

[PCmor7]

I'm not saying he's immune to criticism, but that specific criticism was nonsense

In your opinion. You are just going by stats that support you and ignoring stats you don't like while also leaving out any context. THAT'S nonsense.

Have a nice night.

 

[BlazerRx]

To me, Skal's biggest asset is his shooting touch. Did he take one shot tonight?

As much as he is playing, he should be scoring at least 5 points every game.

Totally agree. I seen numerous times they were playing way off of him at the 3 pt line when the ball was in his hands and he never once looked at the basket. I feel like he has a decent shooting touch and could be running a pick and pop to try and help the non-existent bench scoring.

 

[PCmor7]

Whiteside and Bazemore won't be back next year. I doubt Hezonja or Tolliver will be either.

Not sure what your point is ... will Herzonja or Tolliver be missed? Is Whiteside being counted upon once Nurk is back healthy? Is Bazemore irreplaceable?

If those are the only changes ... I mean, how many teams in the NBA do you think will have four or fewer roster changes next year? I bet almost every team will have at least that. And two rotation guys? I bet almost every other team in the league will have more than that.

I'm sorry, but a post like this just seems like "OK, I am PO'd at the Blazers so I am going to take frustrations out on other posters even though I know exactly what he was saying."

 

[wizenheimer]

In your opinion. You are just going by stats that support you and ignoring stats you don't like while also leaving out any context. THAT'S nonsense.

ok...then you show me some numbers, any numbers, that support your argument. Where are they?

And since you made an accusation, please point out the stats I'm "ignoring", and what relevant "context" I'm leaving out.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

What constitutes breaking up this team? Because we lost 7 rotation players this year and in most cases that would constitute a major "rehaul".

My thought was that Barkley had to mean trading CJ. (In before @hoopsjock telling me we can't until January 31st)

But with how stupid I think Barkley is, he might not even remember that we lost 7 players.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

To my way of thinking, breaking up a team is when you are jettisoning corps guys and using the resources you acquire to get young, cheap talent.

Who exactly did we let go that we didn't replace with someone as good or better? And who did we let go that we weren't forced to let go because of cap constraints -- that's another part of that equation.

So theres been a lot of conversations about this @bobf and @wizenheimer have said most of the summer that they thought who we brought in was worse for the most part then the guys leaving. I kind of jokingly say that Bobf loves Harkless / Aminu. The injuries to Hood and Zach are unfortunate in a lot of ways but in this argument its makes it even harder to judge how right they are. To me the Blazers summer put a ton of pressure on Zach and Simons, Simons appears not ready and Zach got hurt.

 

[PCmor7]

I disagree. I think the changes have to be on the court. You have to have some sort of threat off the bench. If your bench doesn't score you are not going to win many games. I think to much pressure is being put on Ant. He can't be the only threat to score off the bench.

I don't think we need a superstar trade, we need to do a trade like last year's Swanigan for Skal.

So, what change do you think this team can make this year that's going to make us better than the Lakers, Clippers, Rockets, or Nuggets?

You are talking about upgrading the bench when -- if a couple of guys hadn't gotten hurt -- our bench would look great. So what, now we're going to trade somebody to shore up our bench for a run to the first round of the playoffs and then stunt our potential for next year? Doesn't make sense to me to do that.

The caveat being that who knows ... if you get a real sweetheart deal that makes sense for now and next year, then, by all means, you do it. But if you are just trading looking at something for this season, I think that's kind of foolish.

 

[PCmor7]

So theres been a lot of conversations about this @bobf and @wizenheimer have said most of the summer that they thought who we brought in was worse for the most part then the guys leaving. I kind of jokingly say that Bobf loves Harkless / Aminu. The injuries to Hood and Zach are unfortunate in a lot of ways but in this argument its makes it even harder to judge how right they are. To me the Blazers summer put a ton of pressure on Zach and Simons, Simons appears not ready and Zach got hurt.

The injuries had so much to do with this that I don't think you really can judge it.

I don't think Harkless or Aminu playing on this team makes it any better this season. To be honest, Aminu really wasn't our choice; he was a free agent, and we were a little strapped there.

So here's what you have: You either keep Harkless and don't have Whiteside, or you trade for Hassan and give up Mo. To me, that's a no-brainer, especially when you don't have precognition to know that Zach's shoulder is going to be dislocated and that Rodney's going to tear his Achilles.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

So, what change do you think this team can make this year that's going to make us better than the Lakers, Clippers, Rockets, or Nuggets?

You are talking about upgrading the bench when -- if a couple of guys hadn't gotten hurt -- our bench would look great. So what, now we're going to trade somebody to shore up our bench for a run to the first round of the playoffs and then stunt our potential for next year? Doesn't make sense to me to do that.

The caveat being that who knows ... if you get a real sweetheart deal that makes sense for now and next year, then, by all means, you do it. But if you are just trading looking at something for this season, I think that's kind of foolish.

I think it would be a huge mistake to make a short sighted trade for this year. I think if they dont trade Baze/WS or both for someone who has years on their contract they’re in a lot of trouble, if those guys leave they have almost no somethjng like 10-12M in space, and they historically dont get much in FA.

 

[PCmor7]

Look above your post and see that Dame does draw fouls, CJ really does need to improve on that, you're right.

I addressed this. Dame draws fouls, but Dame also plays more minutes than almost anyone in the league, has the ball in his hands almost all the time, and goes through a lot of stretches where he doesn't draw fouls when he could.

I literally addressed the post you are talking about and quoted it. Good lord, guys.

But, yes, Dame all good, CJ all bad. I get the narrative.

Look, when I coached, I had a kid who scored nearly 2,000 points in his HS career. That's really good. Except he probably scored seven-eighths of those points in the first three quarters of his games. The numbers looks terrific until you put them into context.

Saying, "Hey, he did this, it's really good" but missing that he could be maximizing his talent and opportunities ... I mean, if a guy scores 8 in a quarter, it's good ... until you look at things and realize he should have scored 12-15.

 

[PCmor7]

I agree but part of the problems isnt just injuries its that the bench sucks. Skal, Simons have been pretty dissapointing. Little’s probably my favorite of the bunch but he’s got a lot of growing up to do.

Yes, but the injuries impacted the bench and the roles guys are playing. Two of the three guys you mentioned have been in an NBA rotations for 25 games and the third has never played for a team with meaningful aspirations. And they aren't playing for a coach who really trusts young players.

If Zach and Rodney are healthy, Bazemore's coming off the bench, and that also gives us another vet playing with those guys. I think that changes things a lot.

 

[wizenheimer]

So theres been a lot of conversations about this @bobf and @wizenheimer have said most of the summer that they thought who we brought in was worse for the most part then the guys leaving. I kind of jokingly say that Bobf loves Harkless / Aminu. The injuries to Hood and Zach are unfortunate in a lot of ways but in this argument its makes it even harder to judge how right they are. To me the Blazers summer put a ton of pressure on Zach and Simons, Simons appears not ready and Zach got hurt.

even before the injuries to Zach and Hood, it was glaringly obvious the Blazers downgraded their perimeter defense, and the reality is that a team needs at least decent perimeter defense to be successful.

* Start with the PF position: last year the rotation was Aminu and Zach. This season, the rotation at the beginning was Zach and Tolliver/Hezonja. That's a major downgrade. Making it worse, is that while Zach is fine at defense in the paint and at help defense, he's not nearly as good on the perimeter as Aminu

* then you are replacing Harkless, Turner, & Curry with Hood, Bazemore, and Simons. Harkless was much better than Hood at defense, and more versatile. Turner/Bazemore is probably a push; and Curry is quite a bit better than Simons

obviously, the Blazers were gambling that an upgrade in offense would offset the downgrade of defense. It was a bad bet though, because the offense isn't better, and may be worse; but the defense has been atrocious.

to be clear, I wasn't really upset at any of the departures even though I thought there were too many. What pissed me off, and this was in July, were the replacements and the obvious holes in the roster....along with the transparent decisions Olshey was making in order to force Stotts into playing 'his' guys. This roster was driven out onto thin ice and the ice broke

 

[tester551]

Whiteside is not the greatest defender, but faults and all, I still think he's been the second or third best player on this team.

We needed Zach badly.

He's easily been the second best player on this team

 

[wizenheimer]

I addressed this. Dame draws fouls, but Dame also plays more minutes than almost anyone in the league, has the ball in his hands almost all the time, and goes through a lot of stretches where he doesn't draw fouls when he could.

I literally addressed the post you are talking about and quoted it. Good lord, guys.

But, yes, Dame all good, CJ all bad. I get the narrative.

stop with the Dame-good/CJ-bad narrative junk. That's just deflection. You're the one that lumped them together in FT prowess and the FACTS are that they couldn't be more different in that area. Dame is one of the NBA's best while CJ is one of the NBA's worst...again, we're talking drawing fouls and getting to the FT line

as to your other criticisms: you need to prove that Dame is the only player in the league with a high usage rate that goes stretches when he doesn't draw fouls. I don't have a clue what you mean when you imply he could do better

now here are the top 7 players in the NBA in made FT's, with their average AND their usage rates:

James Harden HOU - 12.3 FT's - 38.2%
Jimmy Butler MIA - 12.3 FT's - 25.1%
Luka Doncic DAL - 7.6 - 36.7%
Anthony Davis LAL - 7.1 - 30.8%
Damian Lillard POR - 6.9 - 28.3%
Joel Embiid PHI - 6.9 - 31.7%
Giannis Antetokounmpo MIL - 6.4 - 37.6%

notice how Lillard has the 2nd lowest usage rate there? In other words, he's not the only player that has the ball a lot. All of the volume FT shooters have the ball a lot so that seems like a meaningless criticism

yes, he plays a lot of minutes, but there really isn't that significant minutes difference in those top players, except for maybe Embiid at 30.4. But look at it from another angle, an important angle IMO: Harden is 6'5 and 220. Butler and Doncic are in the 6'7 and 230 range. The other three guys are are in the 6'10-7'0 and 240-250 range. Lillard is 6'2 and 195. That he's in that group of 7 is impressive because he doesn't have the physical advantages they do, and thinking he should be even better is wildly unrealistic

now, after those 7 guys you start seeing more guards show up, but Dame is at the top of that pyramid

 

[BonesJones]

No man, i'm complaining that our two stars are playing like shit, we get dominanted all the time by good teams, why can't our stars not dominate good teams ??

Its not the stars fault, theyre the last reason why were losing on a regular basis. Watch a postgame stream and get educated.

 

[BonesJones]

I would say that this team isn’t talented, is not underperforming, and injuries are masking our horrific offseason. Sure we’ll be much better when Nurk & Collins return. But nothing like a 53+ win team. Unless all our young players develop. Clock is ticking on Dame’s prime and we are wasting time playing has beens and known garbage players just to save face.

Itd make sense tonight if our starting C didnt go for 33pts, 11reb, and 4 blks on 15-21 shooting and our starting PF went for 20pts and 9reb on 8-16 shooting.

We have a great starting backcourt, a spacing PF that can drop an efficient 20, and a really good starting C.

Were not doing fundamental things, like box out, move the ball, cut. Were struggling with fandemental defensive concepts like having proper defensive positioning or proper defensive rotations.

Thats the problem right there. Take care of those things and we win by 10 instead of losing by 10.

 

[THE HCP]

Guys played a lot better than I thought they would.

 

[GhostOfPGA]

Guys, we just suck and we need to accept it. There’s not one damn thing this collection of guys can do to right the ship. This season is a lost cause, and 80% of it is due to injury. Shit happens.

I’m not even mad anymore, I expect nothing other than for the FO to appease Dame, make him as comfortable as possible.

 

[Labinot41]

Its not the stars fault, theyre the last reason why were losing on a regular basis. Watch a postgame stream and get educated.

Excuses excuses, they are supposed to be an elite backcourt, but they cant beat good teams, hell they couldn't even beat a G-League Warriors team. I'm starting to think that our "Elite" backcourt isn't really that elite. I want our backcourt to dominate, not getting dominate. Thats reasonable expectations imo. If they cant we should stop to put them in the elite category

 

[bobf]

Itd make sense tonight if our starting C didnt go for 33pts, 11reb, and 4 blks on 15-21 shooting and our starting PF went for 20pts and 9reb on 8-16 shooting.

We have a great starting backcourt, a spacing PF that can drop an efficient 20, and a really good starting C.

Were not doing fundamental things, like box out, move the ball, cut. Were struggling with fandemental defensive concepts like having proper defensive positioning or proper defensive rotations.

Thats the problem right there. Take care of those things and we win by 10 instead of losing by 10.

No doubt we’re not playing correctly, not paying attention to fundamentals and that’s a problem. I just don’t think it’s the problem. Our starting C and backcourt are great. That’s where it ends.

Melo is a volume scorer who had been horribly inefficient the last 3,000 minutes he’s played and a poor defender to boot. He wasn’t especially efficient the three seasons prior to that either. Like anyone, he will have an occasional efficient game. The stronger your team gets, the more you don’t want inefficient-scorer bad-defenders in your lineup. The sooner we lose Melo the better.

Whiteside has been fantastic but does not make up for what we lost and when Nurk returns it will eventually get messy having two legit starting centers and not enough minutes for both of them.

We need to recoup our depth. Even undoing all the injuries we are only six deep then a big drop off. Right now our hope for accomplishing that lies with Skal, Nas, Ant, Trent - that’s where I think we should be investing.

 

[kjironman1]

I have no clue why you chose to include Dame in that criticism...?

Dame is 7th in the NBA in FTA, and he's 5th in made FT's because he's 4th in the league in FT%. He's great at this

CJ is the Blazer dead zone of FTA and drawing fouls...he's really bad at it, especially considering how much time he spends with the ball in his hand

look at the FT rates on the team:

Damian Lillard .408
Hassan Whiteside .351
Zach Collins .316
Nassir Little .289
Mario Hezonja .278
Kent Bazemore .243
Carmelo Anthony .219
Skal Labissière .198
Anfernee Simons .186
Anthony Tolliver .180
Rodney Hood .157
CJ McCollum .109

this is a big reason why CJ should not be going one-on-one as much as he does. He's a clever ball-handler, but all that clever ball-handling results in below average efficiency, and his inability to take contact and get to the foul line is the main reason. His assisted FG rate should be above 65% instead of below 35%

This is so true. Funny thing i see is CJ works so hard at getting by or around his defender that he actually sacrifices the shot to not get hit. It's almost like if he worked a little less he would get more foul calls? He is indeed a clever ball handler. But he could be a more clever player and draw more foul shots.

 

[BonesJones]

Excuses excuses, they are supposed to be an elite backcourt, but they cant beat good teams, hell they couldn't even beat a G-League Warriors team. I'm starting to think that our "Elite" backcourt isn't really that elite. I want our backcourt to dominate, not getting dominate. Thats reasonable expectations imo. If they cant we should stop to put them in the elite category

Cringe. You're so misinformed.

 

[BonesJones]

No doubt we’re not playing correctly, not paying attention to fundamentals and that’s a problem. I just don’t think it’s the problem. Our starting C and backcourt are great. That’s where it ends.

Melo is a volume scorer who had been horribly inefficient the last 3,000 minutes he’s played and a poor defender to boot. He wasn’t especially efficient the three seasons prior to that either. Like anyone, he will have an occasional efficient game. The stronger your team gets, the more you don’t want inefficient-scorer bad-defenders in your lineup. The sooner we lose Melo the better.

Whiteside has been fantastic but does not make up for what we lost and when Nurk returns it will eventually get messy having two legit starting centers and not enough minutes for both of them.

We need to recoup our depth. Even undoing all the injuries we are only six deep then a big drop off. Right now our hope for accomplishing that lies with Skal, Nas, Ant, Trent - that’s where I think we should be investing.

I dont see what scoring inefficiency has to do with any of the fundamentals I talked about. Our inefficient PF had 20 points on 50% shooting tonight. Instead of saying "we suck" game in and game out, ask yourself: did we defend the 3pt line well? Did we rotate well? Were we in the right position defensively. Did we move the ball? Did we box out?

None of those things take talent. Theyre fundamentals.

 

[kjironman1]

It was pretty obvious to me that the Blazers starters played well enough to keep this team in the game. Lack of depth and again just overall familiarity seems to be what is killing them. Blazers need to make a move and add some depth if at all possible. Then they will need some time to put it together.

 

[kjironman1]

I dont see what scoring inefficiency has to do with any of the fundamentals I talked about. Our inefficient PF had 20 points on 50% shooting tonight. Instead of saying "we suck" game in and game out, ask yourself: did we defend the 3pt line well? Did we rotate well? Were we in the right position defensively. Did we move the ball? Did we box out?

None of those things take talent. Theyre fundamentals.

They are fundamentals for sure. Seems like Melo boxes out well but Skal is still learning this. Whiteside should be better? I wonder if Gasol coming in and coaching will address this? Maybe?
Again defense is the team chemistry type part of the game. Defending the three and rotating to be in the right position is definitely a problem on multiple possessions over the course of the game. The thing is they get it right just as many times so i know they can do it. I sit there and end up thinking "What happened on that possession?" right after saying "Good Defense!" the possession before.
Blazers could sure use a solid 3 and D SF that also can handle the ball a bit right now.

 

[illmatic99]

Tired of getting embarrassed on national TV.

 

[James lamphear]

To my way of thinking, breaking up a team is when you are jettisoning corps guys and using the resources you acquire to get young, cheap talent.

Who exactly did we let go that we didn't replace with someone as good or better? And who did we let go that we weren't forced to let go because of cap constraints -- that's another part of that equation.

The ones that left all play decent defense and was better rebounder then the ones that brought in. Now melo grabs about as many as Aminu but Aminu better defender. We also was longer in the front court then we are this year. Our bench was better last year then this year. With all that Olshey was trying to bring in shooters for the offense but that has fail and by doing that he lost on the defense of side ball. I hate to say it we probably right where we should be in our record due to our injuries and the step down on defense.

 

[tlongII]

Our defense would be a lot better with a healthy Zach. We will be an elite team when all our guys are healthy. I just don't know when that will be or if it will ever be.