Gary "Hard Cap" Payton

[SharpesTriumph]

Personally, I think they're going to let Dame rebuild his trade value and them ship him after this season.

If everything pops, ie. Nas pops, and Ant pops more, and Watford pops etc. and we smash our ceiling. That's the only way I see us pivot into full go-for-it mode with Dame. But that's unlikely imo.

The other long shot is if Sharpe shows all star potential his rookie year. That could change the window for Dame contending.

I don't think Nas/Ant/Watford have the potential to pop in a way that can get us to a contending level one day. Even if they all have great seasons at once. However Sharpe has that potential.

But still either of those things happening is a real long shot; so I'd say odds are you are right. If the Blazers want to keep the most long term talent on the roster they should explore a Dame trade this season or next summer.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

It obviously helps that Draymond who plays PF is such a good facilitator. Luckily, for Portland, between Dame, Ant, Winslow and a little bit of Watford and Nurk, they have multiple offensive facilitators in multiple positions

Is this a joke?

 

[SharpesTriumph]

We haven't had a point of attack defender since Wes Mathews and GPII is a way better ball handler than Wes ever was with his chest high dribble...Wes couldn't finish a layup in the open court many times either but he could shut down James Harden....GPII can shut down anybody and finish a layup

I was a much better shooter than GPII.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

But they don't. GP2 is not a guard on offense. He is a PF on offense. The Blazers always tried to hide Dame / CJ on defense - they will continue to do so, only now they have a much better tool to throw against quick guards.

So we hide Lillard on the opponents PF?

 

[riverman]

I was a much better shooter than GPII.

not in the paint or off the dribble...he was a 3 pt shooter pretty much..couldn't create his own shot or dunk the ball...Payton gets a ton of put back points...Payton also rebounds at a level Wes never sniffed.....the point of attack defense is the point though. We have 3 pt shooters...we now have 3 pt defenders

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Thinking about everything that's been said since Cronin got the job, he's mentioned before this is not a 1 year turn around. I think all the moves we've made so far are aiming toward next summer. We've added two defensive pieces that fit what Chauncey wants to do for THIS season. GP2 is at a decent price, Nurk's contract is at a good salary number to include in trades, Ant as well. I think the moves made so far were to 1) appease Dame for this season and 2) set us up financially to be able to consolidate pieces NEXT offseason in a trade for a big star.

This season is about getting a few guys Dame wanted, competing, and truly seeing how the team looks with a new coach, new system and Dame fully healthy. If we make playoffs, we give the pick to CHI and are clear to trade, Nurk, Ant, Sharpe, etc with no restrictions AND with a clear runway of 3 years to be in the LT with no repeater tax. It also allows us a year to see what Sharpe can potentially be.

Was this an A+ offseason and completely turn the roster around? Absolutely not. I'd give it a solid B, with a lot of hope for the future and potential to either completely reset or make the big move. Look at TOR, they took Barnes #4 last year and now he is THE piece in a potential KD trade. Obviously I don't expect Sharpe to have that kind of immediate impact, but I think it goes to show a lot can change in one year.

Blazers will be over the cap next summer, have to give Hart a raise or lose him, and a similar position with Little as Ant was this summer.

What tools will the Blazers have to add talent as you suggest they will be able to do? All I see is the tax MLE.

The time to do major improvements to the roster and bring in talent was at the trade deadline and this summer. Cronin failed in that regard; and didn't leave himself any assets or tools to get this completed in the future. Writing was on the wall at the deadline. Now were having people say "wait it'll happen NEXT summer'.

When next summer comes we'll hear how Cronin again couldn't get it all done, and we just have to wait until the NEXT summer to see his grand plan come to fruition.

Tomorrow will always be there.

 

[MickZagger]

If this team wins 45 games and makes the play in I will be ecstatic!

As Lillard gets another year older and his trade value sinks..

 

[andalusian]

So we hide Lillard on the opponents PF?

Would you prefer GP2 on Curry and Lillard on Draymond or the other way around?

You always have to hide your bad defenders somewhere. The only difference is that now we have someone that can take on the quick, explosive guards and we did not before.

 

[andalusian]

Is this a joke?

You do not think Dame and Ant can facilitate the offense? The 2 main facilitators in GSW are Curry and Draymond. That's why you can play GP2 next to them - he is a guard on defense, does not need to be on offense. Same as Portland.

If GP2 plays next to only one of Ant or Dame, someone like Winslow (which was used in Miami as their point forward) is useful.

 

[Pinwheel1]

As Lillard gets another year older and his trade value sinks..

What is his trade value now? Another high-priced vet that does not match the other young player's timeline nor win us a championship? or a team that elected to start over and accumulated a bunch of young talent/picks that doesn't really want/need Dame. I would trade Dame for a young superstar but why would a team give up a young superstar? So are we talking draft picks? Are they unprotected?

 

[Natebishop3]

Blazers will be over the cap next summer, have to give Hart a raise or lose him, and a similar position with Little as Ant was this summer.

What tools will the Blazers have to add talent as you suggest they will be able to do? All I see is the tax MLE.

The time to do major improvements to the roster and bring in talent was at the trade deadline and this summer. Cronin failed in that regard; and didn't leave himself any assets or tools to get this completed in the future. Writing was on the wall at the deadline. Now were having people say "wait it'll happen NEXT summer'.

When next summer comes we'll hear how Cronin again couldn't get it all done, and we just have to wait until the NEXT summer to see his grand plan come to fruition.

Tomorrow will always be there.

This team is terrified to take a big swing. We haven’t done it since the years of Trader Bob.

 

[andalusian]

What is his trade value now? Another high-priced vet that does not match the other young player's timeline nor win us a championship? or a team that elected to start over and accumulated a bunch of young talent/picks that doesn't really want/need Dame. I would trade Dame for a young superstar but why would a team give up a young superstar? So are we talking draft picks? Are they unprotected?

He can probably be a part of the Durant trade. (barf).

 

[Pinwheel1]

He can probably be a part of the Durant trade. (barf).

I know you were just joking. But of course, a superstar will not come to Portland without Dame being here. (or maybe not even then)

 

[Fairly-Hard]

As Lillard gets another year older and his trade value sinks..

You’ll get no argument from me on that. Wish they were contenders but they aren’t.
A bunch feel it’s time to trade him.
I honestly love watching him play here. I want to continue to have himhere but yes eventually his value will decrease and his earnings will continue to rise. $50 million is a bunch of money on one player.

 

[Ed O]

I don't think anyone is unhappy with Gary. I think a lot of fans are frustrated that we have such a short team and no depth in our frontcourt.

I am. He's almost 30 and he's played 2055 regular season minutes in his career. He relies on his athleticism but can't stay healthy and, as we all know, few guys get more durable as they start their fourth decade on this planet.

He was helpful with Golden State as their 8th- or 9th-best player, but Portland adding him to our roster is just a waste of money and a missed opportunity.

 

[Ed O]

there was realistically no one out there in FA for us that would have drastically raised our ceiling, but i don't see how GP2 does that either. I would have gone after other targets that at least made sense for our roster as constructed.

And/or were younger.

And/or were cheaper.

Payton ticked all of the "makes no sense" boxes other than he shares an agent with Dame.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Would you prefer GP2 on Curry and Lillard on Draymond or the other way around?

You always have to hide your bad defenders somewhere. The only difference is that now we have someone that can take on the quick, explosive guards and we did not before.

I think Nate's or whoever post you originally responded to was saying a problem with GP2 is we have to choose between one of Dame or Simons being on the court.

Wouldn't it have made more positional sense to have a lead point of attach defender at a forward position that could play along side both Dame and Simons? If we slide Dame or Simons over to forward; we are stuck with an odd lineup that gives up length and defense at multiple positions.

If we only have one of Dame or Simons on the court with Gary it defeats the purpose of having the two highest paid players on one roster.

 

[Blazer Freak]

Blazers will be over the cap next summer, have to give Hart a raise or lose him, and a similar position with Little as Ant was this summer.

What tools will the Blazers have to add talent as you suggest they will be able to do? All I see is the tax MLE.

The time to do major improvements to the roster and bring in talent was at the trade deadline and this summer. Cronin failed in that regard; and didn't leave himself any assets or tools to get this completed in the future. Writing was on the wall at the deadline. Now were having people say "wait it'll happen NEXT summer'.

When next summer comes we'll hear how Cronin again couldn't get it all done, and we just have to wait until the NEXT summer to see his grand plan come to fruition.

Tomorrow will always be there.

Of course they will be over the cap...the only thing that affects is FA, and we aren't clearing a max slot anytime soon. I am talking about having a 3 year window where the luxury tax does not matter and pieces on the roster that make it much easier to construct a trade for a co-star for Dame. Cronin hasn't had even a year on the job yet, I don't see how we can blame him for not building a contender when the roster he was given was both talent and financially-flawed.

I'm not sure Cronin is the savior that everyone is hoping for, but I think he has a vision for how he is wanting this to play out. The dude has been behind the scenes for 15 years, this is his one opportunity and I'm sure he doesn't want to blow it. I'm disappointed we didn't make a bigger move, but again there are so many angles behind the scenes that we fans on S2 have no idea about.

I think this roster is going to be a lot of fun to watch. If we play a fun brand of basketball, Dame shows he is better than ever, Ant continues to ascend, Nas shows he is a starter, etc we have the necessary pieces both salary and talent wise to net a true star next to Dame and a window where we aren't facing a huge luxury tax due to the repeater tax.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

You do not think Dame and Ant can facilitate the offense? The 2 main facilitators in GSW are Curry and Draymond. That's why you can play GP2 next to them - he is a guard on defense, does not need to be on offense. Same as Portland.

If GP2 plays next to only one of Ant or Dame, someone like Winslow (which was used in Miami as their point forward) is useful.

None of Winslow, Watford, or Nurk should be in the discussion of Draymond level playmaking.

GPII won't have those opportunities here he got in Golden State. It's a joke to compare the level of playmaking on the Blazers he will get from basically scrubs in Winslow and Watford.

 

[andalusian]

Wouldn't it have made more positional sense to have a lead point of attach defender at a forward position that could play along side both Dame and Simons?

Sure. Can you point at an elite one that will cost only $8m/year? It is not enough to discuss ideal options, you need to give specifics. But I do not think there is any option of getting anyone as good, as a lead guard defender for that price. We have seen that per/36 GP2 and Marcus Smart have pretty much the same offensive output and both are elite defenders. Seen how much Smart makes? Have you seen how much Dort got?

If we only have one of Dame or Simons on the court with Gary it defeats the purpose of having the two highest paid players on one roster.

It certainly does not, because the Blazers can play Dame + Anf next Nas, Hart or GP2 for 24 minutes a game and each one of them plays an extra 12 MPG as the lead guard next either GP2 / Hart and NAS / winslow - we just need to stagger Ant / Dame more than what we did with Dame / CJ

Again, GP2 is a PF on offense. He is an elite backcourt defender which is exactly what the Blazers need next to Ant + Dame.

 

[Natebishop3]

I think Nate's or whoever post you originally responded to was saying a problem with GP2 is we have to choose between one of Dame or Simons being on the court.

Wouldn't it have made more positional sense to have a lead point of attach defender at a forward position that could play along side both Dame and Simons? If we slide Dame or Simons over to forward; we are stuck with an odd lineup that gives up length and defense at multiple positions.

If we only have one of Dame or Simons on the court with Gary it defeats the purpose of having the two highest paid players on one roster.

Ding ding ding!

 

[andalusian]

None of Winslow, Watford, or Nurk should be in the discussion of Draymond level playmaking.

Agree. But you have to remember that in GSW, Draymond is the primary facilitator and Curry is the secondary. The one you would compare Draymond to in Portland, as a facilitator is Dame (which is as good as a facilitator as Draymond). Their secondary facilitator (Curry) is certainly better than either Ant or in the small amount of time someone like Winslow is, but he is not going to be playing in a system you expect your guard on offense to be a facilitator.

GPII won't have those opportunities here he got in Golden State. It's a joke to compare the level of playmaking on the Blazers he will get from basically scrubs in Winslow and Watford.

On offense, for sure. On defense, his value to Portland is bigger than it is for GSW because they are so lacking. Wiggins + Draymond next to him are much better defensively than Nurk + Hart.

I suspect you will see him play close to the same 18 MPG he saw in GSW in Portland.

 

[B-Roy]

It's official. He's wearing Melo's 00.

 

[julius]

It's official. He's wearing Melo's 00.

No, he's wearing Duckworth's 00.

 

[RonBrewer]

how is it a spin? we have no starting small forwards

At this rate, i am hoping Sharpe is good enough to play that spot for us this year. Not ideal but we need a 3 that can score. He's probably more of a two, traditionally but unless we find one we are gonna have to get crafty

 

[Idog1976]

how is it a spin? we have no starting small forwards, six shooting guards (ant, gary, shaedon, hart, keon, didi), and no capable backup power forwards or centers.

What are you talking about Jerami Grant and Little can both start at SF. Little is a totally fine starter at SF for crying out loud. He just has injury concerns, that's it. Also, hear me now, you will see Sharpe at the SF, possibly even starting by the end of the year. So we have at least one SF who is a legit starter and another guy we want to get minutes at the SF. Also, Hart is totally fine off the bench at SF. Little covers the starting position so really it's not nearly as unbalanced and doomsaying as you say.

 

[riverman]

At this rate, i am hoping Sharpe is good enough to play that spot for us this year. Not ideal but we need a 3 that can score. He's probably more of a two, traditionally but unless we find one we are gonna have to get crafty

With Grant, Ant and Dame and Nurk we have plenty of scoring ..Sharpe will take Ants old role as the spark plug off the bench if he's that good. We'll see if he can hang on defense against NBA talent.

 

[riverman]

No, he's wearing Duckworth's 00.

No he's wearing Enes Kanter's 00!

 

[HailBlazers]

Would you prefer GP2 on Curry and Lillard on Draymond or the other way around?

You always have to hide your bad defenders somewhere. The only difference is that now we have someone that can take on the quick, explosive guards and we did not before.

Funny you say that, I feel like Dame's best defense is against PFs.

 

[riverman]

Both Nas and Dame have had the same core surgery which means hopefully they will both have career years!