Harkless resolves after Crabbe decision?

[Denny Crane]

If you can now take somebody to court over lack of playing time, I need to find my HS hoop coach!

How big was your contract? Did he hurt your future contract?

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Looking at http://www.spotrac.com/nba/cap/ (sorting by total salary so as to not be affected by cap holds), it seems that the team with cap space which would make the most sense for Harkless would be OKC. They rescinded Waiters' QO 2 days ago, so they now have $12M or so in cap space. Would anyone be surprised if they tried to punish us for the Kanter deal by submitting a large offer to Moe?

 

[TBpup]

Looking at http://www.spotrac.com/nba/cap/ (sorting by total salary so as to not be affected by cap holds), it seems that the team with cap space which would make the most sense for Harkless would be OKC. They rescinded Waiters' QO 2 days ago, so they now have $12M or so in cap space. Would anyone be surprised if they tried to punish us for the Kanter deal by submitting a large offer to Moe?

I can see them doing that as well. $12M/year wouldn't be that much of a contract in today's Salary Cap world but it would push Portland into the Luxury Tax if they were to match as Portland can only give Harkless $9.1 million before breaching the Lux Tax threshold. That would preclude there being a trade which I could also see them doing. That would allow them to keep assets and perform a consolidation trade later before the season was over thereby avoiding the Tax.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

I was saying the whole time, Meyers hasn't proven much. Mo has proven he can be so many different things in a season with us. I don't get the organizations obsession with Meyers unless we signed him knowing we are gonna trade him eventually. I amnot one to hate on Meyers, just talking what I have seen. He stretches the floor sure, shoots great from three and plays good defense on bigs SOMETIMES. Decent rebounder. Can run the floor. That's it. Harkless is so much more valuable in this small NBA. Can play SF and PF, goes straight up with the ball. Athletic. Can develop a three. Defense, etc. Dude hustles. Only 23. Come on, easy decision, should of gave Hark the contract and let Meyers figure his shit out. Instead we are kinda treating this dude like garbage. Like oh yeah take the qualifying offer and we might match if it's something not that crazy but you aren't that important so go sit over there.

How do we know that Portland hasn't offered Harkless as much or more than they offered Leonard?

 

[illmatic99]

Meh. Big's have been and always will be overvalued.

Harkless should take a page out of Nards book and bet on himself. Take what Neil's offering and prove he deserves more.

I don't think we should be too worried about satisfying and pandering to Harkless. He's what our 7th man? His agent Happy Walters' biggest clients are Jimmy Butler and Shumpert. No need to worry here.

 

[KeepOnRollin]

Looking at http://www.spotrac.com/nba/cap/ (sorting by total salary so as to not be affected by cap holds), it seems that the team with cap space which would make the most sense for Harkless would be OKC. They rescinded Waiters' QO 2 days ago, so they now have $12M or so in cap space. Would anyone be surprised if they tried to punish us for the Kanter deal by submitting a large offer to Moe?

From everything I have read, the reason OKC did that was to have cap space now for a hopeful RW extension this summer. We can say they are crazy because it isn't going to happen but that was their thinking. So I don't see them spending the 12 MIL this summer.

 

[e_blazer]

Looking at http://www.spotrac.com/nba/cap/ (sorting by total salary so as to not be affected by cap holds), it seems that the team with cap space which would make the most sense for Harkless would be OKC. They rescinded Waiters' QO 2 days ago, so they now have $12M or so in cap space. Would anyone be surprised if they tried to punish us for the Kanter deal by submitting a large offer to Moe?

Per Woj, the Thunder want that cap space to entice Westbrook to sign an extension this summer and then plan to pursue Griffin next summer:

"The move protects salary cap space for the Thunder’s primary offseason objective, league sources said: persuading five-time All-Star guard Russell Westbrook to renegotiate his contract, which would eliminate his 2017 free agency."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ya...lifying-offer-to-dion-waiters-040352448.html#

Of course, if Westbrook tells them to pound sand, all bets are off.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

From everything I have read, the reason OKC did that was to have cap space now for a hopeful RW extension this summer. We can say they are crazy because it isn't going to happen but that was their thinking. So I don't see them spending the 12 MIL this summer.

Per Woj, the Thunder want that cap space to entice Westbrook to sign an extension this summer and then plan to pursue Griffin next summer:

"The move protects salary cap space for the Thunder’s primary offseason objective, league sources said: persuading five-time All-Star guard Russell Westbrook to renegotiate his contract, which would eliminate his 2017 free agency."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ya...lifying-offer-to-dion-waiters-040352448.html#

Of course, if Westbrook tells them to pound sand, all bets are off.

If the assumption is that the Blazers match any offer for Harkless, then signing him to a $50M deal wouldn't impact the RW extension talks at all.

However, everything I've read regarding the possibility of a Westbrook extension indicates that there is almost zero possibility of him agreeing to one.

 

[KeepOnRollin]

If the assumption is that the Blazers match any offer for Harkless, then signing him to a $50M deal wouldn't impact the RW extension talks at all.

That would be a bad assumption for them to take. 12 MIL could easily be passed on by Olshey.

 

[e_blazer]

That would be a bad assumption for them to take. 12 MIL could easily be passed on by Olshey.

I agree. I don't see any way that Olshey would match that price tag given the Blazers' cap situation going forward and the fact that we already have a bunch of guys who can play the 3 spot.

 

[KeepOnRollin]

I agree. I don't see any way that Olshey would match that price tag given the Blazers' cap situation going forward and the fact that we already have a bunch of guys who can play the 3 spot.

I hope I am wrong (in the event it happens) because I really like Harkess a lot but I agree with your thinking. Personally I would have signed him before Leonard but what is done is done.

 

[Trackjack]

Man if it wasn't for Neil, Harkless wouldn't be at this crossroads to begin with. That's gotta count for something right?

Yes of course it count but Neil must seen something he likes too. But i believe about 3 years ago Paul said he not going deal with luxury tax any more. So really it about how much they got until they reach the luxury tax. If they had more they properly would offer more. But I guess will see would will bend first.

 

[Natebishop3]

The Thunder are playing a dangerous game.

I would have traded RW.

 

[HolyBackboard]

You gotta offer Moe more than Meyers ... Moe know it, his agent knows it, and, if they want to keep him, the Blazers know it.

 

[Denny Crane]

I don't think it's a good idea to pay the LT this season. So the max that Mo is going to be offered is whatever we have remaining under the LT.

NO can make more space by trading or releasing players, but he may not want to do that. Or he's waiting until he's convinced it's the best move (to cut others).

 

[Boob-No-More]

I gotta say it's weird that the Meyers situation was resolved before the Harkless situation.
Nard stank up the court last season while Hark gave us starter numbers when he got consistent minutes.

I would let ML go and give that money to Mo' if that what it takes.

Here's their basic comparative per-36 minute numbers:

Mo: 12.3 pts/36, 6.9 reb/36 1.7 ast/36
Meyers: 13.8 pts/36, 8.5 reb/36, 2.5 ast/36

So, one stunk up the court and the other is starter quality?

Sure, there are some things Mo does better than Meyers and some things Meyers does better than Mo. They are obviously very different players with different roles, different strengths and different weaknesses, but I think there is one very unique, very important advantage Meyers provides. He's the only player on our roster taller than 6'6" with a reliable jump shot. And., I think that's very important in Stotts' system. He's the only big man on our roster that can create spacing by drawing an opposing big out from under the rim.

Meyers started last season in a horrible shooting slump, but after he came back from his first injury, he was an elite level 3-point shooter. His 3-point shooting improved every month of the season (until his injury ended his season in March). From Christmas - March 14 (the date of his season ending injury) he shot .457 from 3-point range - that's elite by any measure and the 37 game sample size is significant. Only one player in the entire league, J.J. Redick, shot better than that from 3-point range for the season.

That's a valuable skill in Stotts' system. In a big man, like Meyers, that creates spacing that allows others to penetrate and score in the paint. Dame and C.J. especially benefit from Meyers spreading the floor. Turner will to, as one of his strengths is penetrating and finishing in the paint. I don't think it's just a coincidence that the team played their best ball of the season (24-13) during that 37 game stretch. When Meyers was hitting the 3, we were an elite team (24-13 = .649). The rest of the year, not so much (20-25 = .444). He's not perfect, but the team plays better when Meyers poses a legitimate 3-point threat.

But, I really don't think there was ever any Meyers vs. Mo debate when it came to who they would re-sign. The Turner signing effectively made Mo redundant. Mo's two biggest strengths are as a slasher/finisher and a perimeter defender. Turner gives up both those skills, plus he gives us a third distributor/ballhander. Something Mo doesn't give us. Turner can create for others, but he can also create his own shot. Something Mo can't do. In terms of finishing in the paint, Turner shoots nearly the same percentage from 0-3 feet as Mo (.641 vs .660), which is pretty good considering a much larger percentage of Mo's finishes are dunks (62 vs. 8). But, here's the significant difference - almost twice as many of Mo's finishes in the paint are assisted. He doesn't have the handle to create for himself. Turner does.

In terms of position, this notion that Mo can play three positions is nonsense. On offense, he is strictly a SF. He doesn't have the handle, or outside shot to play SG. Terry tried briefly experimenting with him as a small ball 4, but he's a weak rebounder and interior defender. Aminu is 1000% better suited to that role. You can put Mo on the other team's SG on defense, especially if they have a big SG (like Klay Thompson), but then you're stuck putting your SG (C.J. or Crabbe) on the other team's even bigger SF. That worked against GSW last season in the playoffs because Harrison Barnes disappears in the playoffs. Kevin Durant won't.

Turner can, and does, effectively play both the SG and SF positions on both ends of the court. And finally, because neither one has a reliable 3-point shot, you can't really play Turner (at SG) and Mo (at SF) on the floor at the same time - at least not in Terry's system.

So, that leaves Mo as the odd man out. Turner gives you his same strengths (finishing in the paint and perimeter defense), plus he gives you infinitely better ball handling and distribution and can truly play two positions at both ends of the court. Mo's lack of an outside shot really hurts him in Terry's system. That's why guys like Meyers and Crabbe got precedence over Mo. Even Aminu is a much better 3-point shooter. It's unfortunate that Turner's biggest weakness, lack of 3-point shooting, is also Mo's. If you try to play Mo and Turner together, you only have two legitimate 3-point threats on the court and that simply doesn't work well in Terry's system.

Sure, sign him to the QO, or a reasonable contract, as insurance and depth, but the addition of Turner pushes him out of the rotation (or at least further down it). At this point, he would be our 10th man. With Plumlee, Ezeli, Davis, Leonard and Aminu, he won't see minutes in the front court (he shouldn't anyway), and with Dame, C.J., Turner, Crabbe and Aminu, his minutes on the wing will also be very limited - barring injury.

BNM

 

[Denny Crane]

Neil may have told him to go find a deal for a S&T.

The Blazers could get a draft pick or traded player exception for him. Or a player that fits our needs and makes little enough to not put us over the LT.

I'm not sure that Mo is anywhere near his ceiling. Last year was arguably his best out of 4. He's roughly the same age that CJ was as a rookie. How much better is Aminu going to get?

 

[Boob-No-More]

Neil may have told him to go find a deal for a S&T.

The Blazers could get a draft pick or traded player exception for him. Or a player that fits our needs and makes little enough to not put us over the LT.

I'm not sure that Mo is anywhere near his ceiling. Last year was arguably his best out of 4. He's roughly the same age that CJ was as a rookie. How much better is Aminu going to get?

Aminu greatly improved his 3-point shooting last year. He acquired a new skill that is valuable in Stotts' system. Harkless didn't. He's also just flat out better than Mo and a true two-position player.

That's not to say Harkless can't improve, but there really isn't a spot for him in our current rotation. Again, sign him if he's cheap, but going over the LT threshold for your 10th man doesn't make a lot of sense.

BNM

 

[Mediocre Man]

Aminu greatly improved his 3-point shooting last year. He acquired a new skill that is valuable in Stotts' system. Harkless didn't. He's also just flat out better than Mo and a true two-position player.

That's not to say Harkless can't improve, but there really isn't a spot for him in our current rotation. Again, sign him if he's cheap, but going over the LT threshold for your 10th man doesn't make a lot of sense.

BNM

Aminu has always been crappy and increased a ton. Almost 100 points .274-.361
Harkless, on the other hand, increased from .274-.383 from his first to second year. (better than Aminu) Then got a shitty coach and regressed. When Stotts got him he went back up from .179-.279. Next year he should improve a ton

Aminu did shoot way more this season than Harkless ever has though

Harkless can help guard smaller lineups. I think there is more of a spot for him than others

 

[HolyBackboard]

Here's their basic comparative per-36 minute numbers:

Mo: 12.3 pts/36, 6.9 reb/36 1.7 ast/36
Meyers: 13.8 pts/36, 8.5 reb/36, 2.5 ast/36

So, one stunk up the court and the other is starter quality?

Sure, there are some things Mo does better than Meyers and some things Meyers does better than Mo. They are obviously very different players with different roles, different strengths and different weaknesses, but I think there is one very unique, very important advantage Meyers provides. He's the only player on our roster taller than 6'6" with a reliable jump shot. And., I think that's very important in Stotts' system. He's the only big man on our roster that can create spacing by drawing an opposing big out from under the rim.

Meyers started last season in a horrible shooting slump, but after he came back from his first injury, he was an elite level 3-point shooter. His 3-point shooting improved every month of the season (until his injury ended his season in March). From Christmas - March 14 (the date of his season ending injury) he shot .457 from 3-point range - that's elite by any measure and the 37 game sample size is significant. Only one player in the entire league, J.J. Redick, shot better than that from 3-point range for the season.

That's a valuable skill in Stotts' system. In a big man, like Meyers, that creates spacing that allows others to penetrate and score in the paint. Dame and C.J. especially benefit from Meyers spreading the floor. Turner will to, as one of his strengths is penetrating and finishing in the paint. I don't think it's just a coincidence that the team played their best ball of the season (24-13) during that 37 game stretch. When Meyers was hitting the 3, we were an elite team (24-13 = .649). The rest of the year, not so much (20-25 = .444). He's not perfect, but the team plays better when Meyers poses a legitimate 3-point threat.

Meyers just didn't pass my eye test last year. I know he shoots a great percentage from the field and is great at defending traditional centers, but what I saw against the Grizzlies in the playoffs was not there at all last year. I hope he can regain his confidence but despite those PER 36 numbers, he was extremely underwhelming last year. A lot of that had to do with, in my opinion, "betting on himself" and placing necessary internal pressure on himself as well as both shoulder injuries. If he can just stop thinking so much and just hoop, we'll be a much better team this year than last. We've seen flashes of what he can be (Memphis series) but those flashes, to date, have been far outnumbered by countless shot fakes, uncertainties on the court, and inabilities to guard anyone other than low-post centers.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Meyers just didn't pass my eye test last year. I know he shoots a great percentage from the field and is great at defending traditional centers, but what I saw against the Grizzlies in the playoffs was not there at all last year. I hope he can regain his confidence but despite those PER 36 numbers, he was extremely underwhelming last year. A lot of that had to do with, in my opinion, "betting on himself" and placing necessary internal pressure on himself as well as both shoulder injuries. If he can just stop thinking so much and just hoop, we'll be a much better team this year than last. We've seen flashes of what he can be (Memphis series) but those flashes, to date, have been far outnumbered by countless shot fakes, uncertainties on the court, and inabilities to guard anyone other than low-post centers.

Agree with everything you wrote. He does overthink things and seems to focus too much on one thing at a time, rather than just playing ball. He did play much better after he returned from the first injury, but he has yet to put it all together on a consistent basis. Now that he's locked up for anther 4 years, hopefully he will relax and play with confidence, or at least with less hesitation.

Again, I don't think it was ever really a choice between Meyers and Mo, as their roles and strengths are so different.

BNM

 

[jlprk]

He does overthink things and seems to focus too much on one thing at a time, rather than just playing ball.

"Overthinking" is the antonym of "instinctual." He has to overthink, because he has no athletic instincts.

One more year, and he's finally gone. Just as some of us could easily see in the Summer League after his rookie year. I don't know of any other team that gets stuck on these 5-year Webster/Outlaw/Leonard waits.

 

[Chris Craig]

How do we know that Portland hasn't offered Harkless as much or more than they offered Leonard?

He would have signed...the longer he waits, the more I begin to dislike him

 

[Blazers Roy]

Here's their basic comparative per-36 minute numbers:

Mo: 12.3 pts/36, 6.9 reb/36 1.7 ast/36
Meyers: 13.8 pts/36, 8.5 reb/36, 2.5 ast/36

So, one stunk up the court and the other is starter quality?

Sure, there are some things Mo does better than Meyers and some things Meyers does better than Mo. They are obviously very different players with different roles, different strengths and different weaknesses, but I think there is one very unique, very important advantage Meyers provides. He's the only player on our roster taller than 6'6" with a reliable jump shot. And., I think that's very important in Stotts' system. He's the only big man on our roster that can create spacing by drawing an opposing big out from under the rim.

Meyers started last season in a horrible shooting slump, but after he came back from his first injury, he was an elite level 3-point shooter. His 3-point shooting improved every month of the season (until his injury ended his season in March). From Christmas - March 14 (the date of his season ending injury) he shot .457 from 3-point range - that's elite by any measure and the 37 game sample size is significant. Only one player in the entire league, J.J. Redick, shot better than that from 3-point range for the season.

That's a valuable skill in Stotts' system. In a big man, like Meyers, that creates spacing that allows others to penetrate and score in the paint. Dame and C.J. especially benefit from Meyers spreading the floor. Turner will to, as one of his strengths is penetrating and finishing in the paint. I don't think it's just a coincidence that the team played their best ball of the season (24-13) during that 37 game stretch. When Meyers was hitting the 3, we were an elite team (24-13 = .649). The rest of the year, not so much (20-25 = .444). He's not perfect, but the team plays better when Meyers poses a legitimate 3-point threat.

But, I really don't think there was ever any Meyers vs. Mo debate when it came to who they would re-sign. The Turner signing effectively made Mo redundant. Mo's two biggest strengths are as a slasher/finisher and a perimeter defender. Turner gives up both those skills, plus he gives us a third distributor/ballhander. Something Mo doesn't give us. Turner can create for others, but he can also create his own shot. Something Mo can't do. In terms of finishing in the paint, Turner shoots nearly the same percentage from 0-3 feet as Mo (.641 vs .660), which is pretty good considering a much larger percentage of Mo's finishes are dunks (62 vs. 8). But, here's the significant difference - almost twice as many of Mo's finishes in the paint are assisted. He doesn't have the handle to create for himself. Turner does.

In terms of position, this notion that Mo can play three positions is nonsense. On offense, he is strictly a SF. He doesn't have the handle, or outside shot to play SG. Terry tried briefly experimenting with him as a small ball 4, but he's a weak rebounder and interior defender. Aminu is 1000% better suited to that role. You can put Mo on the other team's SG on defense, especially if they have a big SG (like Klay Thompson), but then you're stuck putting your SG (C.J. or Crabbe) on the other team's even bigger SF. That worked against GSW last season in the playoffs because Harrison Barnes disappears in the playoffs. Kevin Durant won't.

Turner can, and does, effectively play both the SG and SF positions on both ends of the court. And finally, because neither one has a reliable 3-point shot, you can't really play Turner (at SG) and Mo (at SF) on the floor at the same time - at least not in Terry's system.

So, that leaves Mo as the odd man out. Turner gives you his same strengths (finishing in the paint and perimeter defense), plus he gives you infinitely better ball handling and distribution and can truly play two positions at both ends of the court. Mo's lack of an outside shot really hurts him in Terry's system. That's why guys like Meyers and Crabbe got precedence over Mo. Even Aminu is a much better 3-point shooter. It's unfortunate that Turner's biggest weakness, lack of 3-point shooting, is also Mo's. If you try to play Mo and Turner together, you only have two legitimate 3-point threats on the court and that simply doesn't work well in Terry's system.

Sure, sign him to the QO, or a reasonable contract, as insurance and depth, but the addition of Turner pushes him out of the rotation (or at least further down it). At this point, he would be our 10th man. With Plumlee, Ezeli, Davis, Leonard and Aminu, he won't see minutes in the front court (he shouldn't anyway), and with Dame, C.J., Turner, Crabbe and Aminu, his minutes on the wing will also be very limited - barring injury.

BNM

Ahhh ,the magical "per 36 minutes" numbers.
Cliff Alexander is 10 PPG,6 rpg,2 bpg per 36 minutes, the guy is a beast!

Meyers lacks confidence and his mental slump and injuries will repeat again (and again).

Right now we have 3 Centers with no shooting range in Ezeli,Plumlee,Davis. That leaves Meyers to be the perimeter big (the PF).

After watching Leonard and Harkless play at the 4 last season, my conclusion is that i much rather have Hark than Leonard at that role,even if he's far from perfect.

Aminu should start with Ezeli, Harkless should come off the bench with Davis. We can't afford Plumlee.

 

[Denny Crane]

Looking at the salaries here:

http://www.spotrac.com/nba/portland-trail-blazers/cap/

It looks like we have ~$10M in LT space after renouncing Kaman (we didn't do that yet?).

There are at least 3 possibilities:

1. Neil hasn't offered all that's left, minus any possible bonuses that could add to our cap space situation after the trade deadline. This includes the possibility that he doesn't want to offer that much.

2. Mo wants more.

3. They're both in no hurry.

Mo hasn't signed an offer sheet elsewhere.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Ahhh ,the magical "per 36 minutes" numbers.
Cliff Alexander is 10 PPG,6 rpg,2 bpg per 36 minutes, the guy is a beast!

That's disingenuous and you know it. I compared two guys who played similar minutes: 1457 minutes for Harkless in 72 games (14 as a starter) = 18.7 MPG; 1333 minutes for Leonard in 61 games (10 as a starter) = 21.9 MPG. Those are relevant and comparable sample sizes. Cliff Alexander played exactly 36 minutes of garbage time all season. That is not a statistically relevant sample size. Your attempt at a red herring fails and adds nothing to your case for Harkless.

Ironically, even with the ridiculously small sample size, other than BLKs, Alexander's per 36 numbers are inferior to Leonard's. So, if 10/6 makes Alexander a "beast", Leonard at 13.8/8.5 must be a total stud - by your "logic".

BNM

 

[jlprk]

Olshey very publicly announced that Turner will start. At that moment, Harkless lost his starting job. So Harkless and agent have made a list of teams where he has a higher chance of starting than here (for example 25%, since Olshey brilliantly announced that here, the chance is 0%). He and his agent are now having those teams compete to get the highest offer, where he will sign even if it's for less money (but more minutes, and a chance to start) than here.

He is gone. Thanks, O...O...Olshey.

 

[Denny Crane]

Harkless and Aminu look very similar statistically.

Per 36, per 100 possessions, advanced stats.

Aminu is a bit better at rebounding (+1 per 100 possessions), and a lot better at 3pt shots. Mo has the higher TS%, and ORtg. The DRtg are within 1.

Aminu got more minutes, showing Stotts is more comfortable with him. At least last season. I'm not seeing that would change, unless Mo outplays him.

The data are confounded by Mo moving into the starting lineup for the stretch run, and Aminu moving to the 4.

Both started all 11 playoff games.

 

[BlazerWookee]

That's disingenuous and you know it. I compared two guys who played similar minutes: 1457 minutes for Harkless in 72 games (14 as a starter) = 18.7 MPG; 1333 minutes for Leonard in 61 games (10 as a starter) = 21.9 MPG. Those are relevant and comparable sample sizes. Cliff Alexander played exactly 36 minutes of garbage time all season. That is not a statistically relevant sample size. Your attempt at a red herring fails and adds nothing to your case for Harkless.

Ironically, even with the ridiculously small sample size, other than BLKs, Alexander's per 36 numbers are inferior to Leonard's. So, if 10/6 makes Alexander a "beast", Leonard at 13.8/8.5 must be a total stud - by your "logic".

BNM

HIT'M IN THE MUSCLE! HIT'M IN THE MUSCLE!

 

[Blazers Roy]

That's disingenuous and you know it. I compared two guys who played similar minutes: 1457 minutes for Harkless in 72 games (14 as a starter) = 18.7 MPG; 1333 minutes for Leonard in 61 games (10 as a starter) = 21.9 MPG. Those are relevant and comparable sample sizes. Cliff Alexander played exactly 36 minutes of garbage time all season. That is not a statistically relevant sample size. Your attempt at a red herring fails and adds nothing to your case for Harkless.

Ironically, even with the ridiculously small sample size, other than BLKs, Alexander's per 36 numbers are inferior to Leonard's. So, if 10/6 makes Alexander a "beast", Leonard at 13.8/8.5 must be a total stud - by your "logic".

BNM

I just don't like "per 36 minutes" numbers comparisons in general, i deliberately choose an extreme example like Cliff just to show how silly those stats can be.

I'm not denying their numbers are similar, but i'm not even sure we should rely solely on stats in this debate, we have to factor in stuff like their mental game,talent,potential ceiling,ability to shine in playoffs games,toughness,physical durability,mobility in a league trending more towards stretch 4s .