Trade Hart/Winslow/Didi/Keon/pick or CJ/Norm/Nance/Roco?

Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Register Log in

What would you rather have?

  • CJ, Norm, Nance, Roco (bird rights)

    Votes: 24 40.0%

  • Hart, Winslow, Didi, Keon, MIL pick

    Votes: 36 60.0%
  • Total voters
    60
blazerkor said:
What's funny to me is that the guys defending Cronin act like they know he did as good as a GM could with those trades, they act like they know for sure that better trades weren't available and that every possible deal that would have been better was explored. None of us know shit, the only thing we know is that we gave up a lot more production than we got back and we didn't get the draft capitol back to justify the discrepancy. The reason why is fairly inconsequential to me especially when the guy who made the move is in the middle of an interview. How in the world is he not failing his interview?
Click to expand...

Instead of building straw men, you should identify posters who are saying the things you say they are saying, and acting the way you say they are acting. Using such a broad fucking brush to paint everybody who isn't going ballistic about Cronin, like you are, is horse shit. I don't know why your rhetoric keeps getting so personal. That surprises me because it's really the first time I've noticed you doing that

I don't know what the offers were, but I do know what Jake Fisher said about a couple for CJ..and so do you at this point. I'll certainly revise my opinion if just one of you guys screaming so loudly and so often would give a link for a better trade that Cronin turned down. Your assumption that there had to be better deals out there aren't persuasive to a lot of us. It would certainly be informative what instructions for the deadline Cronin was given by the Vulcans. You have to be aware there is a possibility there were offers for those traded Blazers that didn't fit the parameters set by Seattle which was obviously cutting current & future payroll as the #1 priority
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: RR7
wizenheimer said:
like them, he's the best player in franchise history. And like them, he's shown amazing loyalty to the team that drafted him
Click to expand...
Unlike them, he hasn't won a title.

If Dame won a title for us I wouldn't give a shit if he kept us in mediocrity for another 5+ years.
 
wizenheimer said:
Instead of building straw men, you should identify posters who are saying the things you say they are saying, and acting the way you say they are acting. Using such a broad fucking brush to paint everybody who isn't going ballistic about Cronin, like you are, is horse shit. I don't know why your rhetoric keeps getting so personal. That surprises me because it's really the first time I've noticed you doing that

I don't know what the offers were, but I do know what Jake Fisher said about a couple for CJ..and so do you at this point. I'll certainly revise my opinion if just one of you guys screaming so loudly and so often would give a link for a better trade that Cronin turned down. Your assumption that there had to be better deals out there aren't persuasive to a lot of us. I would certainly be informative what instructions for the deadline Cronin was given by the Vulcans. You have to be aware there is a possibility there were offers for those traded Blazers that didn't fit the parameters set by Seattle which was obviously cutting current & future payroll as the #1 priority
Click to expand...
You're not who I'm addressing, you're pretty damn even on this and probably taking a lot more sensible position than I am. You don't love the deals and wish we would have secured better draft capital to offset the talent discrepancy. At the same time you don't pretend to know for sure that there were better deals than we got. It's a good place to be in, a little disappointed but not pissed.
 
wizenheimer said:
unlike them, he's had a stupid fucking GM for the entirety of his career
Click to expand...
While that is true, doesn't mean we should just hang onto Dame just because. The ultimate goal to win a title is more important. That could include Dame or it might not. I'm certainly squeamish about extending him with a max deal and paying him 50+ at age 35.
 
blazerkor said:
You're not who I'm addressing, you're pretty damn even on this and probably taking a lot more sensible position than I am. You don't love the deals and wish we would have secured better draft capital to offset the talent discrepancy. At the same time you don't pretend to know for sure that there were better deals than we got. It's a good place to be in, a little disappointed but not pissed.
Click to expand...

ok...it's just hard to know because I've certainly pushed back against the idea there had to be better deals out there

I think Cronin had instructions from the Vulcans that prioritized cutting current and future payroll. Which by the way is pretty common for a team up for sale. So, as I mentioned, it's possible there were other deals out there that offered better returning talent but didn't cut enough payroll.

again, my hunch is that A) Cronin probably did a good job meeting the requirements set by Seattle. And B) he did a mediocre job of asset for asset trading, but he may have been limited a lot by A). My issue is that Portland needs a good GM to run the draft and off-season, not a mediocre one. My worry is that the Vulcans will be really happy with the Blazers dropping guaranteed salary by 190M and reward Cronin with the job
 
Last edited:
SlyPokerCat said:
While that is true, doesn't mean we should just hang onto Dame just because. The ultimate goal to win a title is more important. That could include Dame or it might not. I'm certainly squeamish about extending him with a max deal and paying him 50+ at age 35.
Click to expand...

I'm not crazy about paying him 50M at age 35 either. Of course, if it is a 150M salary cap and a 185M tax line by then, that kind of salary won't be crippling at all

and I disagree....if Dame doesn't demand to be traded Portland should absolutely hang on to him because. If he doesn't want out, his trade value is irrelevant.

I've been a Blazer fan since the beginning. I went thru Bill Walton wanting out, getting out, and then suing the Blazers. And Clyde wanting out, getting out, and showing no loyalty to Portland at all. And Aldridge wanting out. Dame has pretty much been all in, and that means a lot to me
 
wizenheimer said:
I'm not crazy about paying him 50M at age 35 either. Of course, if it is a 150M salary cap and a 185M tax line by then, that kind of salary won't be crippling at all

and I disagree....if Dame doesn't demand to be traded Portland should absolutely hang on to him because. If he doesn't want out, his trade value is irrelevant.

I've been a Blazer fan since the beginning. I went thru Bill Walton wanting out, getting out, and then suing the Blazers. And Clyde wanting out, getting out, and showing no loyalty to Portland at all. And Aldridge wanting out. Dame has pretty much been all in, and that means a lot to me
Click to expand...
That makes sense if you got to witness a championship. I did not. And I would like to win one. If that means moving on from Dame, fine. I'd be happy as can be if we actually could put a contender around him. If we are going to trot out a team fighting for the play-in the next year or two, please trade him. I'd hope I can watch him on a contender and root for him elsewhere.
 
wizenheimer said:
ok...it's just hard to know because I've certainly pushed back against the idea there had to be better deals out there

I think Cronin had instructions from the Vulcans that prioritized cutting current and future payroll. Which by the way is pretty common for a team up for sale. So, as I mentioned, it's possible there were other deals out there that offered better returning talent but didn't cut enough payroll.

again, my hunch is that A) Cronin probably did a good job meeting the requirements set be Seattle. And B) he did a mediocre job of asset for asset trading, but he may have been limited a lot by A). My issue is that Portland needs a good GM to run the draft and off-season, not a mediocre one. My worry is that the Vulcans will be really happy with the Blazers dropping guaranteed salary by 190M and reward Cronin with the job
Click to expand...
All very legitimate takes and possibilities. I don't know if the Paul Allen trust would sell the team before the likely increase in value that will come with the new TV deal that should start in the fall of 2025. So yeah unloading Norm's contract and getting under the tax like they did in that first deal might have been a mandate and maybe all of the mediocre moves were made under pressures from Vulcan. You're definitely right that Joe handling this very crucial off season because he bent to the will of Vulcan and they could look to reward him for that is pretty worrisome.

In what has become rare from me lately. On the bright side, if you're right and everything Joe did was extremely affected in the negative by mandates from ownership, we may have no idea of the good things the guy is capable of. There are just a lot of unknowns and that's kinda shitty when the stated goal is to contend immediately with Dame leading the way.
 
SlyPokerCat said:
That makes sense if you got to witness a championship. I did not. And I would like to win one. If that means moving on from Dame, fine. I'd be happy as can be if we actually could put a contender around him. If we are going to trot out a team fighting for the play-in the next year or two, please trade him. I'd hope I can watch him on a contender and root for him elsewhere.
Click to expand...

I don't have a problem with that

what I do have a problem with is people convinced it's impossible to build a contender around Dame and saying Portland should just give up and trade him before they have even tried to build that team. Because for damn sure, Olshey never tried and he was only fired 4 months ago. I want to see the Blazers give an honest effort over a couple of drafts, off-seasons, and trade deadlines.
 
wizenheimer said:
I don't have a problem with that

what I do have a problem with is people convinced it's impossible to build a contender around Dame and saying Portland should just give up and trade him before they have even tried to build that team. Because for damn sure, Olshey never tried and he was only fired 4 months ago. I want to see the Blazers give an honest effort over a couple of drafts, off-seasons, and trade deadlines.
Click to expand...
I just have no faith in ownership and Cronin to put a contender around Dame. No bandaids like Jerami Grant to parade out there like we are now contenders.
 
blazerkor said:
All very legitimate takes and possibilities. I don't know if the Paul Allen trust would sell the team before the likely increase in value that will come with the new TV deal that should start in the fall of 2025. So yeah unloading Norm's contract and getting under the tax like they did in that first deal might have been a mandate and maybe all of the mediocre moves were made under pressures from Vulcan. You're definitely right that Joe handling this very crucial off season because he bent to the will of Vulcan and they could look to reward him for that is pretty worrisome.

In what has become rare from me lately. On the bright side, if you're right and everything Joe did was extremely affected in the negative by mandates from ownership, we may have no idea of the good things the guy is capable of. There are just a lot of unknowns and that's kinda shitty when the stated goal is to contend immediately with Dame leading the way.
Click to expand...

I'll say this...maybe my view on the deadline deals is colored by the fact I wanted Olshey fired for years, the Dame/CJ back court shit-canned, and a different roster built. It started with getting rid of Olshey. That made me extremely happy. And I'm convinced that the players traded by Portland, who accounted for half of the payroll, had a combined talent level that had Portland's trajectory flat-lined. A treadmill in purgatory. So I'm pretty happy that there will not be an 8th reboot olshey-vision

the new vision might not be any better, maybe worse, but at least there are finally some options for optimism. There weren't any when olshey was in charge
 
SlyPokerCat said:
I just have no faith in ownership and Cronin to put a contender around Dame. No bandaids like Jerami Grant to parade out there like we are now contenders.
Click to expand...

well, that wouldn't change if Dame was traded though. If that management team couldn't build a contender around Dame they sure as shit aren't going to build one around Simons. Besides that, it might be Cronin trading him
 
wizenheimer said:
I'll say this...maybe my view on the deadline deals is colored by the fact I wanted Olshey fired for years, the Dame/CJ back court shit-canned, and a different roster built. It started with getting rid of Olshey. That made me extremely happy. And I'm convinced that the players traded by Portland, who accounted for half of the payroll, had a combined talent level that had Portland's trajectory flat-lined. A treadmill in purgatory. So I'm pretty happy that there will not be an 8th reboot olshey-vision

the new vision might not be any better, maybe worse, but at least there are finally some options for optimism. There weren't any when olshey was in charge
Click to expand...
Regardless of if both Olshey and Cronin are shit or if Cronin is a lot better, I'll tell you I like Cronin a lot more. The guy definitely doesn't make me want to puke every time he talks.

I also wanted off of the Dame/CJ ride and had wanted off since after their first season together. I actually never understood the idea of pairing the two together. Even though I was sick of them and definitely wanted to keep Dame, I always thought CJ was a great offensive weapon who if surrounded by the right guys is very valuable and was disappointed in the return. I was pretty pissed that the disappointment robbed me of what should have been the fulfillment of something I'd been asking for, for a very long time.
 
calvin natt said:
I hear you but nobody manages NBA owners. Especially Joe freakin Cronin.
Click to expand...
This comment doesn't make sense. One of the most important skills of a GM is managing the owner, especially the worse the owner is. Say what you want about Neil, and he had plenty of faults, but he was pretty good at that with both Paul and Jody.
 
wizenheimer said:
well, that wouldn't change if Dame was traded though. If that management team couldn't build a contender around Dame they sure as shit aren't going to build one around Simons. Besides that, it might be Cronin trading him
Click to expand...

This is one of the reasons I'm fine with holding off on a Dame trade even though I believe there is no way for the Blazers to contend. I don't want to see current management trying to get value for Dame nor oversee a rebuild.
 
wizenheimer said:
well, that wouldn't change if Dame was traded though. If that management team couldn't build a contender around Dame they sure as shit aren't going to build one around Simons. Besides that, it might be Cronin trading him
Click to expand...
The question is what team is better:

Dame plus Simons haul

or

Simons plus Dame haul
 
Phatguysrule said:
I don't think these were options. Nobody wanted Norm on that contract for 5 years.

Far better off to just keep your first rounder and get a guy that good on a rookie deal.
Click to expand...
People just say this without backing it up. What gave you the notion that this was true? Who'd you hear this from?
 
Phatguysrule said:
I think the "initial expected trade" was Portland heavy given that other teams knew we were going to trade CJ and that our ownership gave every indication that they were not interested in paying the repeater tax.

Everybody knew CJ and Norm had to be moved. And nobody was excited about those contracts.
Click to expand...
So you're telling me that the Pelicans were willing to give up the 8th pick, and in the case where the trade worked out for them, weren't willing to give up the 8th pick?

That doesn't make any sense to me.
 
Nance with 13 points on 6/9 shooting and good defense taking down the #1 seed in a playoff game. He was key in the playin game too.

Both wins are bigger than any game Hart has played in his career.

Did the Blazers give up the two best players in the CJ trade?
 
WesleyMatthews said:
Nance with 13 points on 6/9 shooting and good defense taking down the #1 seed in a playoff game. He was key in the playin game too.

Both wins are bigger than any game Hart has played in his career.

Did the Blazers give up the two best players in the CJ trade?
Click to expand...

I would give a slight edge to Hart over Nance when both healthy. I do like Nance's game, but he misses 15-35 games a season and that has to be factored in.
 
WesleyMatthews said:
Nance with 13 points on 6/9 shooting and good defense taking down the #1 seed in a playoff game. He was key in the playin game too.

Both wins are bigger than any game Hart has played in his career.

Did the Blazers give up the two best players in the CJ trade?
Click to expand...

:biglaugh:
This is hilarious! He has a couple decent games and now he's a stud.
Go look at his game log and see how inconsistent he is. Or pretty consistently garbage when he played for us.
https://www.espn.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/2580365/larry-nance-jr
 
BoBoBREWSKI said:
:biglaugh:
This is hilarious! He has a couple decent games and now he's a stud.
Go look at his game log and see how inconsistent he is. Or pretty consistently garbage when he played for us.
https://www.espn.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/2580365/larry-nance-jr
Click to expand...

he's also only played in 13 of 32 games for the Pels. And he wouldn't have played any playoff games for the Pels if Paul George didn't get Covid

still, Nance made some sense for New Orleans as a bench player. He made no sense at all for Portland as a bench player after the dismantle. And including him turned an 11M TPE for the Blazers into a 21M TPE

whether or not they use the TPE is another matter
 
We can debate the merits of the trade and how much of the blame falls on the Vulcans, but it seems to me there is a more fundamental issue here.

Does Olshey strike you as the type of boss who would surround himself with people who are smarter than him, or with mediocre yes men?
 
oldmangrouch said:
We can debate the merits of the trade and how much of the blame falls on the Vulcans, but it seems to me there is a more fundamental issue here.

Does Olshey strike you as the type of boss who would surround himself with people who are smarter than him, or with mediocre yes men?
Click to expand...
Cronin was here before olshey was, I believe.
 
RR7 said:
Cronin was here before olshey was, I believe.
Click to expand...

I think that's correct, but that Olshey promoted him.

BTW, does it bother anybody that our cap situation has been a mess for years - and that Cronin was supposed to be our cap expert?
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 1 (members: 0, guests: 1)
Back
Top