OT Healthcare

[Orion Bailey]

OB it's more than just obesity or smoking...tobacco taxes are really high for smokers as it is but taxes pay for wheelchair accessibility and toilet stalls...where do you stop contributing to things that help disabled with your tax dollars regarless of how they got that way...or mental illness which leads to obesity in some cases..I don't think it's humane to exclude anyone from public health and I think it's no big deal for those with the ways and means to contribute to do so...tax dollars are spent on many less important things that you nor I benefit from as it is...America is one of the few countries in the world where you can eat yourself to death...those you pay for almost inevitably have shorter life spans than non smoking or healthier citizens..it works out anyway for the collective benefit of humanity

oh i get it. Its wayyy. More than obesity or tobacco.
Id say lets start dollar for dollar and whats left can be spread out being the direct effect of the cost.

 

[Chris Craig]

@noknobs chill

OB you too bro

 

[crandc]

I subsidize billionaires who pay little or no taxes. Tax breaks for huge corporations. Endless wars. Religious institutions, some of which own millions in property, tax free. Politicians who want to take away my civil rights. So, how about I stop subsidizing them and subsidize national health instead.

 

[Orion Bailey]

@noknobs chill

OB you too bro

All good. I cleaned some stuff up.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Is it waiting? or transitioning the focus on healthy lifestyle first health care second instead of the opposite?

Waiting to enact positive public policy is waiting... There is no benefit. Nothing gained. So what's the point? just as well start getting healthier now.

 

[Lanny]

your opinion.

people who take partial data and use it as a foundation to say it 100% works and anyoen ooposed is wrong… is wrong on every level


See how this works? We've been through this. Your numbers don’t include tangibles that WILL happen.
Just agree to disagree instead of trying to tell me im wrong based on incomplete data.

I had the same problem as you in seeing people's opinions as assertions. Try to filter them and recognize which ones are opinions such as Phatguysrule as an assertion.
Maybe I'm missing something because I can't readily find the post you were responding to in order to understand the full context.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Waiting to enact positive public policy is waiting... There is no benefit. Nothing gained. So what's the point? just as well start getting healthier now.

is not making a push for a healthier lifestyle not a positive?

Ive stated my opinion and like ive said im all for universal health care as long as those who choose to do risky things, pay in more than those that dont.
Same reason why i believe in a gas tax over an automobile tax. I shouldn't be taxed the same for not driving my car, as the next guy who drives 200 per day.

institute a universal healthcare system like that and ill be all for it.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I had the same problem as you in seeing people's opinions as assertions. Try to filter them and recognize which ones are opinions such as Phatguysrule as an assertion.
Maybe I'm missing something because I can't readily find the post you were responding to in order to understand the full context.

Good luck lol. This has been an ongoing convo between @Phatguysrule and i for a while now even in private.
Mad respect for his patience and persistence and i really like talking politics with him. but to follow what we have been discussing? Lol.

Sorry.

 

[Phatguysrule]

There ya go. See? So the people who choose to take risks pay more. Thats all ive been saying….

I've already said to get rid of the junk food subsidies, which is a taxpayer incentive to buy junk food. This would raise the price of junk food and remove the incentive for corporations to produce it. Therefore drastically increasing the price and eliminating the financial incentive for the poor to buy it.

I'm also fine with a junk food tax.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I've already said to get rid of the food subsidies, which is a taxpayer incentive to buy junk food. This would raise the price of junk food and remove the incentive for corporations to produce it. Therefore drastically increasing the price and eliminating the financial incentive for the poor to buy it.

I'm also fine with a junk food tax.

i must have missed it. My apologies. Lots of posts to read from people. I should have taken our convo back to the DM.

also i know better than engaging in serious convo on my phone. Its too easy to scroll and miss things. sorry.
Thanks for not being an ass about it.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Republicans

PEOPEL ARE 2 FAT, THEY NEED TO EAT HEALTHIER

Michelle Obama:

let’s feed kids healthier lunches

REPUBLICANS:
OMG WTF IS SHE DOING


Same with restaurants having to show calories, and the whole labels in grocery store thing that happened during Obama’s years.

i voted for Obama.

 

[Phatguysrule]

is not making a push for a healthier lifestyle not a positive?

Ive stated my opinion and like ive said im all for universal health care as long as those who choose to do risky things, pay in more than those that dont.
Same reason why i believe in a gas tax over an automobile tax. I shouldn't be taxed the same for not driving my car, as the next guy who drives 200 per day.

institute a universal healthcare system like that and ill be all for it.

If you aren't changing the public policy you aren't making a push for a healthier lifestyle. Changing public policy is how you make that push.

 

[Phatguysrule]

i must have missed it. My apologies. Lots of posts to read from people. I should have taken our convo back to the DM.

also i know better than engaging in serious convo on my phone. Its too easy to scroll and miss things. sorry.
Thanks for not being an ass about it.

I'd prefer to keep it public so others can chime in with their suggestions (and fact check). That's the great thing about public forums. You can really flesh things out with enough people involved.

Yes, I miss things on my phone all the time as well.

 

[Orion Bailey]

If you aren't changing the public policy you aren't making a push for a healthier lifestyle. Changing public policy is how you make that push.

Fair enough. Im fine with both. Just not policy before lifestyle. Simultaneous? Okay.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I'd prefer to keep it public so others can chime in with their suggestions. That's the great thing about public forums. You can really flesh things out with enough people involved.

Yes, I miss things on my phone all the time as well.

also fair enough. Sometimes i tire not of others suggestions but snarky hypocritical behavior. Lol. But all good.
Just keep in mind i may skip some posts and look to come back to them later as to not add to confusion by being hasty and mixing things up like our universal health care vs homeless issue.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Fair enough. Im fine with both. Just not policy before lifestyle. Simultaneous? Okay.

Yeah, I mean that's the whole point of public policy, IMO. To encourage the public to behave in ways beneficial to society.

 

[Phatguysrule]

also fair enough. Sometimes i tire not of others suggestions but snarky hypocritical behavior. Lol. But all good.
Just keep in mind i may skip some posts and look to come back to them later as to not add to confusion by being hasty and mixing things up like our universal health care vs homeless issue.

I get that as well. I actually feel like this board does a pretty good job of staying in line.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Yeah, I mean that's the whole point of public policy, IMO. To encourage the public to behave in ways beneficial to society.

well forgive me if my faith in government pushed health policies haven't exactly seemed substantiated over the last decade or two. Lol.

 

[RR7]

Im not for paying into a system that doesn't hold people accountable for the chosen risks they take without there being some sort of sliding scale or risk tax that only goes towards those choosing that risk. this has nothing to do with born illnesses, etc.

It just seems really difficult to build a tax structure that you're asking for.

Ok, we all pay a 2% health tax. Then fill out a gigantic form of risk factors to determine where that number shifts up to? How often do we fill out the form? What if I fill out the form at the beginning of the year, but then I become a smoker after, am I obligated to re-file? How many chips are too many chips? Do we regularly get weighed, BMI indexed, etc.? I'm a runner, but I'm often a fair weather runner, so I can say I run, but I get around the holidays, and I become a lazy bum drinking whiskey and over snacking. Tax go up at different intervals?
On top of that, what sort of things are we including. It's easy to just say smoking and chips as a lazy catch all. But we then need to determine which studies to believe on different levels of anything. Some studies show sitting all day at your job is bad, so those people that choose those jobs get dinged a little bit because of a desk job. Being poor is shown to be a huge factor in stress, stress causes major health issues. Now, you might not choose to be poor, but you made other choices in your life that I guess eventually got you down to being poor. So the stress from being poor actually causes you MORE stress now, because you have to pay even more. Because of your stress. Because you're poor. And now more poor.
So sitting at a desk is bad, but, being on your feet all day could also lead to back and knee pain. Expensive surgeries later on down the line! I don't want to have to pay for someone else's knees because they chose to have a job where they tried to be healthier by not being at a desk sitting all day, but instead ruined their knees. If you work in an office, you're far more likely to catch a cold there and need to go to the doctor than someone who works from home. SO bonus points for at home workers. Not so much the office workers. Buuuut, there is a health benefit to being socially active. So it's kind of a +1, -1 sort of thing of seeing co-workers each day.
Damnit, as a runner, I'm trying to be healthy, but also putting that wear on my knees that someone that, say, bikes, does not. -1 for bad running knees.
I have a friend who is a very active person, white water kayaking and what not. So the activity and exercise, good, but the chosen activities, and the injuries that they lead to...bad.
I had a sever concussion playing softball a few years back. Do we put playing rec sports on the risk factor? And how do we quantify the risk factors when some people are happy to not run out ground balls, and others like myself are diving in the outfield? Do we fill out on our tax form the different sports we play, and our wiollingness to over exert ourselves playing them? The activity is a health bonus, but I'd say you surely have a much bigger risk of twisting ankles and breaking bones and having sprains playing baseball, basketball, etc. than you do playing video games and eating chips in your basement.
Andround and round it can go

 

[barfo]

Since all of us are concerned about our health and healthcare let me give you a GIANT PRO TIP that I discovered on my own due to my own obsessiveness.

Before you go in for your annual physical call your doctor and ask for him to send in the request for lab work.

Then go in and get your lab work down a few weeks BEFORE you see your doctor.

All too often you see your doctor and during that visit he orders labs.

He gets the results but doesn't really discuss them with you unless there is something bad.

By having the results available to your doctor BEFORE you see him you can have better discussions about the results. How diet and/or exercise can make small improvements. How adjustments to medications or supplements like vitamins can help or prevent future problems.

It means 2 trips to your doctor but the knowledge about your health will be more complete during the short amount of time you are seeing your doctor.

Lab work, what a joke.

We aren't dogs like you. We don't have 'lab work' or 'poodle work', or any of that.

Besides, what is fetching a stick or slobbering on everyone going to tell a doctor?

barfo

 

[crandc]

If there is anyone here with NO bad habits, raise your paw.

 

[RR7]

If there is anyone here with NO bad habits, raise your paw.

Gimme a second to set down my whiskey, don't want to risk spilling

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

If there is anyone here with NO bad habits, raise your paw.

Anyone here is on S2, so that means we all have at least one shit habit.

 

[calvin natt]

Unreal. Truly amazing to me still even after all these years if Trump and QAnon etc. Tucker- one of the most watched “news” personalities is calling out the bravery of…Niki Minaj, rapper, who’s cousins balls blew up from the Covid vaccine. And he’s saying it with a straight face. And millions of Ken’s and Karen’s are at home nodding in agreement.

 

[Phatguysrule]

well forgive me if my faith in government pushed health policies haven't exactly seemed substantiated over the last decade or two. Lol.

It's not government pushed... It's just taxpayer funded. Your doctor and you decide what treatments to get.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Ill say it again.
Im not for paying into a system that doesn't hold people accountable for the chosen risks they take without there being some sort of sliding scale or risk tax that only goes towards those choosing that risk. this has nothing to do with born illnesses, etc.

hopecully that is clear enough for some of you

So you want government or a private business to know every risky thing a person does and charge them for it?

Like a toll to live your life? This sounds incredibly distopian... I'd much prefer we just fund the care people need since every other country who does that has better health outcomes than we do at a fraction of the price.

You must really love government if you want to give somebody that much control over your life...

 

[Orion Bailey]

It just seems really difficult to build a tax structure that you're asking for.

Ok, we all pay a 2% health tax. Then fill out a gigantic form of risk factors to determine where that number shifts up to? How often do we fill out the form? What if I fill out the form at the beginning of the year, but then I become a smoker after, am I obligated to re-file? How many chips are too many chips? Do we regularly get weighed, BMI indexed, etc.? I'm a runner, but I'm often a fair weather runner, so I can say I run, but I get around the holidays, and I become a lazy bum drinking whiskey and over snacking. Tax go up at different intervals?
On top of that, what sort of things are we including. It's easy to just say smoking and chips as a lazy catch all. But we then need to determine which studies to believe on different levels of anything. Some studies show sitting all day at your job is bad, so those people that choose those jobs get dinged a little bit because of a desk job. Being poor is shown to be a huge factor in stress, stress causes major health issues. Now, you might not choose to be poor, but you made other choices in your life that I guess eventually got you down to being poor. So the stress from being poor actually causes you MORE stress now, because you have to pay even more. Because of your stress. Because you're poor. And now more poor.
So sitting at a desk is bad, but, being on your feet all day could also lead to back and knee pain. Expensive surgeries later on down the line! I don't want to have to pay for someone else's knees because they chose to have a job where they tried to be healthier by not being at a desk sitting all day, but instead ruined their knees. If you work in an office, you're far more likely to catch a cold there and need to go to the doctor than someone who works from home. SO bonus points for at home workers. Not so much the office workers. Buuuut, there is a health benefit to being socially active. So it's kind of a +1, -1 sort of thing of seeing co-workers each day.
Damnit, as a runner, I'm trying to be healthy, but also putting that wear on my knees that someone that, say, bikes, does not. -1 for bad running knees.
I have a friend who is a very active person, white water kayaking and what not. So the activity and exercise, good, but the chosen activities, and the injuries that they lead to...bad.
I had a sever concussion playing softball a few years back. Do we put playing rec sports on the risk factor? And how do we quantify the risk factors when some people are happy to not run out ground balls, and others like myself are diving in the outfield? Do we fill out on our tax form the different sports we play, and our wiollingness to over exert ourselves playing them? The activity is a health bonus, but I'd say you surely have a much bigger risk of twisting ankles and breaking bones and having sprains playing baseball, basketball, etc. than you do playing video games and eating chips in your basement.
Andround and round it can go

So you want government or a private business to know every risky thing a person does and charge them for it?

Like a toll to live your life? This sounds incredibly distplopian... I'd much prefer we just fund the care people need since every other country who does that has better health outcomes than we do at a fraction of the price.

You must really love government if you want to give somebody that much control over your life...

It is extremely rare to have something truly good, also be easy to accomplish.

and no monitoring is needed. We need to start itemizing our taxation based on nutritional value. We can put extra taxes on some things and reduce taxes on other things. Instead of blanket taxation, we can put added taxes onto skydiving and all that goes along with it. Etc. etc. etc.

It can be done though.

 

[Orion Bailey]

It's not government pushed... It's just taxpayer funded. Your doctor and you decide what treatments to get.

But those spending the funds on the ads and what not would likely let thier personal ideals interfere. If its tax payer funded that just means the politicians have those funds to push their narrative?

 

[RR7]

It is extremely rare to have something truly good, also be easy to accomplish.

and no monitoring is needed. We need to start itemizing our taxation based on nutritional value. We can put extra taxes on some things and reduce taxes on other things. Instead of blanket taxation, we can put added taxes onto skydiving and all that goes along with it. Etc. etc. etc.

It can be done though.

But extra taxes on different things is a completely different discussion. Or, rather, a side discussion. The discussion is universal health care. There's again, pretend a generic added tax of 2% of income for healthcare. For everyone.
Then, you start taxing vices, if so desired. Trying to assess people's risk factors on UHC is futile, IMO, and ultimately is going to penalize the poor.

 

[Phatguysrule]

But those spending the funds on the ads and what not would likely let thier personal ideals interfere. If its tax payer funded that just means the politicians have those funds to push their narrative?

No ads. Just healthcare. Your doctor says you need this procedure. You get the procedure. Universal Healthcare pays the doctor and the procedure.

Done. No ads. Nothing to advertise.