How's everyone feel about Smokin' Joe Cronin now?

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Natebishop3 said:
That's all fair.

The main point of contention is going young. The Blazers got the third pick, which was a twist of fate. Whether you believe the reports that the Blazers actually did try to trade the pick, or if you fall into the group who do not believe that Joe really gave it his all, the mere fact that we got the third pick is what drastically changed things. Joe was presented with an impossible decision.

Trade Scoot for bad value.

or

Piss off Dame.

And with that decision, I'm sure Joe had to sit down and think about the future of the team. Dame is 33. Our team is not good. We're being handed a stud point guard on a silver platter. So if you're presented with an option of either taking bad value on a 19 year old stud point guard who might end up being really special OR taking not great value on a Damian Lillard trade, which one do you choose? I can't imagine that was a fun decision.
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100%

Joe hasn't acted incredulous about Dame's actions, I think he knew he was going to push Dame to a point that infuriated him but if that's what was best for the team, that's what Joe had to do. I just don't get why people are so surprised by Dame's actions. Even the parting shot of the Haynes article. Dame has good reasons to be pissed at Joe but that doesn't mean Joe is at fault.

I think this was a challenging situation, I think for Dame the emotional reactions were compounded by other challenging situations in his life. I don't blame anyone in this situation and I'm excited for our team's future and to see if Dame can get a championship or two in Milwaukee.
 
Phatguysrule said:
What Dame did shouldn't work for othe stars. Certainly not within the GM's first year.

Dame cratered the value of Portland's assets at critical junctures.
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Somehow Giannis putting the same public pressure on the Bucks front office didn't do that. You have to ask yourself why that is.
 
blazerkor said:
100%

Joe hasn't acted incredulous about Dame's actions, I think he knew he was going to push Dame to a point that infuriated him but if that's what was best for the team, that's what Joe had to do. I just don't get why people are so surprised by Dame's actions. Even the parting shot of the Haynes article. Dame has good reasons to be pissed at Joe but that doesn't mean Joe is at fault.

I think this was a challenging situation, I think for Dame the emotional reactions were compounded by other challenging situations in his life. I don't blame anyone in this situation and I'm excited for our team's future and to see if Dame can get a championship or two in Milwaukee.
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Joe's mistake was that he either foolishly thought that he could draft Scoot and still build around Dame, OR he was stringing Dame along. Some people believe the first thing is true, the other group believes that the second is true.

Personally, I think Joe is still a rookie GM. I think he makes rookie mistakes. I think he says things that a seasoned GM would not say. I think Dame and Joe have different personality types and they did not mesh. Neil was amazing at spinning bullshit.
 
Natebishop3 said:
Joe's mistake was that he either foolishly thought that he could draft Scoot and still build around Dame, OR he was stringing Dame along. Some people believe the first thing is true, the other group believes that the second is true.

Personally, I think Joe is still a rookie GM. I think he makes rookie mistakes. I think he says things that a seasoned GM would not say. I think Dame and Joe have different personality types and they did not mesh. Neil was amazing at spinning bullshit.
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I honestly do no believe Joe initially had Scoot on his mind. Everyone was saying Scoot should go two or Charlotte should trade the pick. Joe thought he was building around Dame and at worst the kid Charlotte selected.
 
blazerkor said:
Somehow Giannis putting the same public pressure on the Bucks front office didn't do that. You have to ask yourself why that is.
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Giannis and his agent didn't do what Dame and his agent did.

Giannis has given his front office far more time than Dame gave Cronin. It's not even a comparison. Giannis didn't give anything that could be taken as a direct ultimatum like Dame did.

I'm not saying the separation is all Dame's fault. But by pretty much all reports there was nothing else Cronin could have done.
 
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Phatguysrule said:
Giannis and his agent didn't do what Dame and his agent did.

Giannis has given his front office far more time than Dame gave Cronin. It's not even a comparison. Giannis didn't give anything that could be taken as a direct ultimatum loke Dame did.

I'm not saying the separation is all Dame's fault. But bypretty much all reports there was nothing else Cronin could have done.
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I didn't realize that you were talking about the Miami only scorched earth shit (which I'm not cool with) but didn't seem to undercut anything since we got a pretty fucking good deal from another team in the long run.

I thought you were talking about publicly stating that if the team went young he'd want out before the draft. I don't think that undercut value of our assets anymore than Giannis basically saying, "get this already contending team better or I'm out" and before that, "get this playoff team to a contending level or I'm out". Giannis didn't give them more time than Dame did either because Dame had been talking this same talk since before the 2020 Olympics.

Again, I don't blame Joe, if the moves toward youth were the best on the table then it is what it is. I just also don't blame Dame for being furious about it because it's obvious to me that he was very serious about being here his whole career and what he wanted was a team around him who could contend... the fact that he was being paid like every all nba player in the league (supermax money) doesn't factor into what the team did for him, in my opinion.
 
Natebishop3 said:
Joe's mistake was that he either foolishly thought that he could draft Scoot and still build around Dame, OR he was stringing Dame along. Some people believe the first thing is true, the other group believes that the second is true.

Personally, I think Joe is still a rookie GM. I think he makes rookie mistakes. I think he says things that a seasoned GM would not say. I think Dame and Joe have different personality types and they did not mesh. Neil was amazing at spinning bullshit.
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I think Cronin knew Dame was going to have to be moved once Scoot was left on the board.

But he wasn't going to rush it. He was going to publicly say he was still planning on building around Dame in an effort to get Dame to a good situation while maximizing the return to the team.

So he'd be making calls trying to make deals to build around Dame and likely gauging interest in Dame as well.

To me this seemed obvious. And something would have happened. And if Dame were working with Cronin there wouldn't have had to be all of these feelings.

Dame made it as difficult on Cronin as it possibly could be.
 
blazerkor said:
I didn't realize that you were talking about the Miami only scorched earth shit (which I'm not cool with) but didn't seem to undercut anything since we got a pretty fucking good deal from another team in the long run.

I thought you were talking about publicly stating that if the team went young he'd want out before the draft. I don't think that undercut value of our assets anymore than Giannis basically saying, "get this already contending team better or I'm out" and before that, "get this playoff team to a contending level or I'm out". Giannis didn't give them more time than Dame did either because Dame had been talking this same talk since before the 2020 Olympics.

Again, I don't blame Joe, if the moves toward youth were the best on the table then it is what it is. I just also don't blame Dame for being furious about it because it's obvious to me that he was very serious about being here his whole career and what he wanted was a team around him who could contend... the fact that he was being paid like every all nba player in the league (supermax money) doesn't factor into what the team did for him, in my opinion.
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I agree, Dame was serious about wanting to be here. But Olshey fucked him. Milwaukee had far better assets to meet Giannis's demands than Cronin had to meet Dame's.

These are completely different situations.
 
In Vegas during Joes PC he said Shae and Scoot are win now players pretty quick. Scoot is not your typical rookie. His point was to build around them.
What does that mean?
 
Hoopguru said:
In Vegas during Joes PC he said Shae and Scoot are win now players pretty quick. Scoot is not your typical rookie. His point was to build around them.
What does that mean?
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Means he sees them as players who can contribute on a winning team.

I tend to agree with him. Dame, Scoot, and Sharpe would have been a fine rotation. If you could trade Simons/Nurk for Ayton and a solid PF it could have been a competitive team.
 
Phatguysrule said:
Means he sees them as players who can contribute on a winning team.

I tend to agree with him. Dame, Scoot, and Sharpe would have been a fine rotation. If you could trade Simons/Nurk for Ayton and a solid PF it could have been a competitive team.
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Im thinking if he’s offered a seasoned three under 28 and a pick/s for Holiday he will. No more tanking.
 
Natebishop3 said:
The fact that Joe had to keep his thoughts and ideas in a personal diary says it all. He felt that Dame and Goodwin were working against him and he had to be careful about who he brought in on trade negotiations.
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actually...that's a major stretch of imagination and I don't believe that's what the issue is

I think it says that Cronin doesn't trust all the people in his front office. it's not like Dame or Goodwin had the keys to Cronin's office
 
wizenheimer said:
actually...that's a major stretch of imagination and I don't believe that's what the issue is

I think it says that Cronin doesn't trust all the people in his front office. it's not like Dame or Goodwin had the keys to Cronin's office
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But the question is….. why? Does he think there are leaks? People loyal to Dame?
 
blazerkor said:
Holy shit this conversation is so fucking tired. Dame did what he felt was right for him after this team's front office didn't do what they said they sat out to do many many times between Olshey and Joe. When Dame said don't go young or else and Joe called his bluff I think that put Dame in a bad mindset (obviously compounded by personal stuff). Dame obviously felt betrayed by Joe. Joe obviously wasn't going to give into Dame's demands because they were stupid. Dame got to a good team, better team than the one he wanted but is still pissed at Joe.

I think Dame has every right to be angry at Joe mostly for not getting the job done that Joe had been telling Dame he'd get done for a year and a half, that would have kept Dame where he wanted to be and that's here.

I think Joe made the best moves for the franchise and when weighing out what to do didn't put too much weight in Dame's legacy with the franchise which is shrewd but you kind of want someone who is shrewd making these decisions.

Both guys actions are completely understandable to me. Most important Joe seems to be kicking ass with this trade and it's going to set us up for a very very bright future.

I'll root for Dame to win a title in Milwaukee but above all else GO BLAZERS!!!
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And Joe did help Hart and others get to teams they had listed. Joe trading Dame to Milwaukee both helped Dame and the Blazers.
I still think Joe once he got #3 knew he was probably going to have to trade Dame.
 
You knowI have to remind myself just how young Dame is, I remember when I was 32 trying to raise a family and pursue a career.
The fact that Damian Lillard conducted himself so well over his time here and gave back to the community big time, I cut him some slack in his role with all this, Im more pissed at his agent for not giving him sound advice. I also went through a divorce around his age with a career and kids and it was a difficult time to stay focused. I had good sound advice that helped me navigate a new beginning.
Im a huge fan of Damian Lillard and hope he comes back here after 2-3 years and retires a blazer.
 
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STOMP said:
So what? I doubt many here (let along everyone) is forgetting Dame's pre-draft pissy public demands, but those being aired is 100% on him not Joe. A GM's job is to do whats best for the franchise and Dame's public ultimatums didn't change that. It takes at least two teams to make a trade and I fail to see the magic bunny in the hat deal that would have appeased Dame which Joe let pass by.

STOMP
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My comment is a response to another poster about the timeline.
 
Hoopguru said:
You knoll I have to remind myself just how young Dame is, I remember when I was 32 trying to raise a family and pursue a career.
The fact that Damian Lillard conducted himself so well over his time here and gave back to the community big time. I cut him some slack in his role with all this, Im more pissed at his agent for not giving him sound advice. I also went through a divorce around his age with a career and kids and it was a difficult time to stay focused. I had good sound advice that helped me navigate a new beginning.
Im a huge fan of Damian Lillard and hope he comes back here after 2-3 years and retires here.
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Agree 100%
Dame is just trusting a shitty agent. It doesn't excuse him from responsibility, but it certainly makes it more understandable.
 
This was the situation whittled down to the basics to me:

In two seasons Joe Cronin has probably added two players (Scoot Henderson & Shaedon Sharpe) that are better than anyone Neil Olshey added in 8 1/2 seasons. Possibly way way better for at least one of them. Like All-Star level someday.

Maybe someone could also make the argument that Jerami Grant is better than anyone Neil Olshey added. (I really liked Aminu in his last years for all he did, so I won't do that. I also like Nurkic when the offense isn't stagnated.)

Jusuf Nurkic was re-signed to the team between Cronin's first and second seasons. Cronin also signed Anfernee Simons to a 4-years extension.

Damian Lillard was playing at all-time high level in his career as a Blazer.

The downside to getting lucky (extremely lucky in my opinion) in the 2022 and 2023 drafts was that several players were asked to sit 10-12 or so games at the end of both seasons.
However, the outlook for the rest of the season in 2022 and 2023 would have been mediocre even if those players had played.
The last trip to the playoffs (2021) ended in a 2-4 series loss in the first round and I think most people would have expected that to be the best-case scenario for the 2022 and 2023 teams.

Anyway, here we are in summer 2023.

We have Shaedon Sharpe. We have Scoot Henderson.
Jerami Grant has just been re-signed.

Drew Eubanks is gone, and Cronin is clearly looking to add more size, the quality is unknown , but he's not looking at 6'9" centers. Several 7-footers in summer league. A 6' 9" power forward and 6'7' small forward with a 7-foot wingspan were drafted.

AFTER TWO SEASONS WITH JOE CRONIN, DAMIAN LILLARD ASKS FOR A TRADE. WHAT THE FUCK.

I'm not mad or sad. Just bewildered.
 
blazerfan11 said:
This was the situation whittled down to the basics to me:

In two seasons Joe Cronin has probably added two players (Scoot Henderson & Shaedon Sharpe) that are better than anyone Neil Olshey added in 8 1/2 seasons. Possibly way way better for at least one of them. Like All-Star level someday.

Maybe someone could also make the argument that Jerami Grant is better than anyone Neil Olshey added. (I really liked Aminu in his last years for all he did, so I won't do that. I also like Nurkic when the offense isn't stagnated.)

Jusuf Nurkic was re-signed to the team between Cronin's first and second seasons. Cronin also signed Anfernee Simons to a 4-years extension.

Damian Lillard was playing at all-time high level in his career as a Blazer.

The downside to getting lucky (extremely lucky in my opinion) in the 2022 and 2023 drafts was that several players were asked to sit 10-12 or so games at the end of both seasons.
However, the outlook for the rest of the season in 2022 and 2023 would have been mediocre even if those players had played.
The last trip to the playoffs (2021) ended in a 2-4 series loss in the first round and I think most people would have expected that to be the best-case scenario for the 2022 and 2023 teams.

Anyway, here we are in summer 2023.

We have Shaedon Sharpe. We have Scoot Henderson.
Jerami Grant has just been re-signed.

Drew Eubanks is gone, and Cronin is clearly looking to add more size, the quality is unknown , but he's not looking at 6'9" centers. Several 7-footers in summer league. A 6' 9" power forward and 6'7' small forward with a 7-foot wingspan were drafted.

AFTER TWO SEASONS WITH JOE CRONIN, DAMIAN LILLARD ASKS FOR A TRADE. WHAT THE FUCK.

I'm not mad or sad. Just bewildered.
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Yeah but honestly this shit started two years ago when Neil was still here. This has been a long time coming. Dame and Goodwin started this two summers ago.
 
I have been thinking about it and I believe the issue with Joe and Dame is that Joe strikes me as a numbers guy. He was a cap guy. Possibly similar to the way that Billy Beane was portrayed in Moneyball. In that movie they mentioned several times that Beane wouldn’t mingle with the players so that it would be easier to cut or trade them. Neil was a salesman. He was a talker. Joe is more analytical.

People process information differently. I tend to talk my way through problems and use a stream of thought to come to a conclusion. My wife is not at all like that and takes time to review data and come to a conclusion. I drive her nuts when I want to quickly talk through a decision.

One of Neil’s biggest flaws was that he was unwilling to trade “his guys.” He wouldn’t admit mistakes. So far Joe doesn’t seem to have that flaw. He dumped GP2 real fast. If I’m right and Joe looks at players as assets/numbers, that could definitely rub some of them the wrong way.

After reading the Haynes article and the Woj article it just seems like bad communication and failure to understand the other side. I don’t think Joe was intentionally misleading and I don’t think Dame was intentionally trying to hurt the team. They were both doing what they thought they had to do. It’s just sad that it ended this way.
 
So on one hand Cronin is so secretive as to abide by Milwaukee GM in not letting negotiations get out to the point even the Suns GM doesn't know who they are getting for their last piece.

Then on the other hand things are loosy goosy with Ayton/ Nurkic trade as that has been out there for about a week prior to the trade?
 
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