I guess I'm out of touch.

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I'm glad you found the fact that bringing up my rich black friends was a dumb argument--it was meant as a counterpoint to all the silly outliers presented to me as an example as to why racism is rampant in our country. And I didn't ask for outliers, I asked for systemic and structural racism. The only one that came close to passing muster was cops pulling over people for DWB. However, getting pulled over a few times isn't an excuse as to why you can't succeed.



I didn't sucker anybody. I asked why identity was important and I have yet to see a satisfactory answer. In my opinion, it's a veneer. It's window dressing. In the end, you rise and fall on your merits. The vast majority of people don't give a shit what color you are, whether you're male or female, who you go to bed with or to which God you pray (or whether you even do). The vast majority of people care whether or not you can do your job or whether or not you're a good person.


Do you think having a role model is important to young people?

And if looking at the wealth distribution among the top American in the country is not a good example of racism and how far this country still has to go (opposed to DWB) . . . I don't know what to say . . . really DWB is the only example you give credit to (to me what a simplistic and relatively inconsequential example of racism v. other meaningful examples)
 
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What was his message?

Change.

What represented change?

the way he looked.

obama_shep_print_final2.jpg


they judged him from his outward appearance. He was an iconic figure, and voted him in.
 
If achievment and merit is important to you and nothing else matters, you should be the one who is upset with the fact black people are getting the short end of the stick. Why isn't there a black american who is one of the richest people in America.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/54/biz_06rich400_Robert-L-Johnson_VYCO.html

I didn't search; that one came off the top of my head. Perhaps there are more.

You think white people work that much harder and achieve that much more than blacks to the point that no Blakc people (not one) make the top 25(or whatever it is)? Really maxie, don't you think that is naive thinking . . .

I wouldn't be able to explain to you the reason. If I could, I'd be in the top 25. Did Sam Walton start off wealthy? Warren Buffett? Mike Bloomberg? Michael Dell? Sergey Brin? Larry Page? Sheldon Adelson? Nope. They worked hard, took a chance and made it happen themselves. You don't have to be born rich to make it in this country, and you sure as hell don't have to be white or male or straight or Protestant.
 
You don't have to be born rich to make it in this country, and you sure as hell don't have to be white or male or straight or Protestant.

Well, I think that's about to CHANGE. Class and social mobility will be more difficult as the rewards for success are to be lowered.
 
The big deal is that a great majority of the population judged him by his message, and didn't dismiss him solely due to his skin color. That the population at large could evaluate him on content signifies that, as a nation, we are starting to get away from the racism that has engulfed the nation for 150 years.

Don't give him that much credit . . . he was the opposing canidate in a time period where the economy is reaching historic lows and running against a McCain/Palin ticket.

Shooting fish in a barrel.
 
Why do role models have to be the same color as you?

Well if you don't understand this, I can't explain it to you. I hope you don't have to be a minority to understand this principle, but maybe that is what it takes.

I agree with your title of the thread, you are out of touch.

Peace and good night
 
The big deal is that a great majority of the population judged him by his message, and didn't dismiss him solely due to his skin color. That the population at large could evaluate him on content signifies that, as a nation, we are starting to get away from the racism that has engulfed the nation for 150 years.
and wouldn't that be the case even if he lost? just by being the democratic nominee or being a legitimate contender to be the democratic nominee didn't already do that?
 
In the end, you rise and fall on your merits. The vast majority of people don't give a shit what color you are, whether you're male or female, who you go to bed with or to which God you pray (or whether you even do). The vast majority of people care whether or not you can do your job or whether or not you're a good person.

With the single exception of Barack Obama, who you insist rose based on his skin color. Puzzling.

barfo
 
That's like saying it's time for quadriplegics to toss their wheelchairs and walk like men.

Sure, a few weak people work the system and play on sympathies, but racism is rampant among the less-educated, and among the less-travelled, and among our most well-intentioned politicians in particular.

I would offer to anyone who still feels discriminated against that perhaps they are.

I would suggest maxiep take a solo stroll through Watts, or Harlem, and strike up a conversation with whomever he comes across. Discuss the economy, or your families, or share your hopes and dreams with each other.

When I worked for the USACE in the old Multnomah Building in Portland (now it's an Embassy Suite Hotel) I would occasionally corral a street beggar and take him or her to lunch. You just cannot believe the amazing people that are buried under those rags and stench. To hear a tiny episode from their lives will change you forever. I'm not talking about excuses, because they rarely offered any. Just a story about their youth, their loved ones, the places they've been, the things they've done. Real people like yourself, but who faced adversities they could not overcome. It can bring you to tears. It can make you feel lucky. It can make you feel humble.

Wow, you mean you know all about racism from Portland? Sweet. Funny, I never managed to ever talk to one of those people while living in minority neighborhoods in DC, Chicago and NY. I never managed to meet or talk with a person of lower circumstance while spending at least a weekend a month and countless nights and vacations for the past 18 years working for Habitat for Humanity. And if you're picking up on the sarcasm, you should be, because I'm laying it on pretty thick.
 
What is the racism or sexism you've experienced? How were you not treated equally? Please be specific and show how it was endemic and not happenstance.

Personally, I think the real divides in this country are cultural and economic, not racial. Say what you will, but living in SE DC, the South Side of Chicago and the Lower East Side in NY is not living life as a member of the majority. I see a lot of excuse making as to why people feel they can't make it, why they're being held down, but I've always believed it's a cop-out.

If for some reason this election is important to black people, can we drop the act that we're a racist country? If we were, he wouldn't have been elected.

I'm half Japanese and have been teased and made fun of. I looked different from a lot of the "normal" kids in school. Did it stop me from becoming the person I am today? No. Did it make a difference on how I view the white majority? Yes.

Racism should not be an excuse to why you can't make it in this country but the fact is people treat other people differently around the country. To sit there and pretend it doesn't happen is truly naive and you are out of touch. There's not much more I can say about that.

White people experience racism on other levels as well. When was the last time you saw a white running back or white corner back in the NFL? It doesn't happen very often. It's because coaches automatically stick them at other positions because they have the stigma that white guys aren't as athletic.

The fact that we just elected a black president shows how far this country has come. But we still have a long ways to go.
 
White people experience racism on other levels as well. When was the last time you saw a white running back or white corner back in the NFL? It doesn't happen very often. It's because coaches automatically stick them at other positions because they have the stigma that white guys aren't as athletic.

That analogy absolutely ridiculous and untrue on so many levels that I won't even waste my time explaining them.
 
That analogy absolutely ridiculous and untrue on so many levels that I won't even waste my time explaining them.

Oh yeah. It happens. Players talk about it, they've experienced it first hand. White guys get moved to linebacker and safety, or tight end. If they are wide receivers, they get labeled as possession guys. It's hard for white players in football to stick at certain positions.

Edit: I wanna add this starts in high school when kids are getting groomed to be recruited by colleges. Many of them shift to positions where they will get a better look from bigger schools. The shift from corner to safety is a huge one. Also the kids that play RB at a high level usually have to show that they can make a big impact on defense at the linebacker position.

If you wanna pretend that this doesn't happen then that's your problem. I know a couple of guys in high school that made the switch to try to land a scholarship.
 
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Nope. I was responding to idea that there should be proportional racial representation in the Forbes 400. Eric, how many minority neighborhoods have you lived in? For how long?

The fact that there are "minority neighborhoods", and "white neighborhoods", and "Chinatown" means there is racism. Both ways, as it usually is.

MY LITTLE STORY

I was born and raised in Lake Oswego, which you, maxiep, are familiar with.

It was the size of Wasilla when I was young, and completely white.

As a child I loved summer as I would fish the lake down on the tracks by the Dairy Maid, because "Old Negroes" would ride the bus from Portland to fish there. It was like hanging out with visitors from another country, and
they talked with a kind of accent I'd never heard, talked about places I'd never been, talked about things I didn't understand. They sort of adapted me as a mascot or something, I think.

No matter how much I pleaded with my buddies to join us they never did. They were too frightened of the strange people. Too frightened of what their parents would say or do. Too frightened, plain and simple.

The other time I always looked forward to was shopping for school clothes each August. My mother would take me to downtown Portland on the bus (she still doesn't have a driver's license to this day). There would be us and a couple of people from OC, then we'd pick up some black maids or gardners as we passed by Dunthorpe, and then we'd be downtown where suddenly they were everywhere! And there were Asians, and Hispanics. For me, it was more fun than the circus! I'd be chatting up a storm with strangers on the bus, on the street, in M&F...It cracked my Mom up because my nickname at the Fire Hall was Silent (insert my first name here).

And then schooltime would come, and everyone I saw each day was white for the next 9 months. Very dull.

When I was in 5th or 6th grade Lake Oswego welcomed their very first 'Black Family". The Greens (ironic name) were thought to be non-threatening because they were financially comfortable enough to buy a nice home, had polite kids, and took an immediate interest in the community. None of the kids were near my age, and the family seemed too much like me to be all that interesting, so we were just neighbors and nothing more. But gradually, after years had passed and no white girls were raped by them and burglaries stayed sporadic, they were accepted as equals, if "special" equals maybe.

They remained the exception in color for 4-5 years at least.

Now LO is the preferred home of most Blazers, and despite being ridiculously overpriced has a pretty thorough cultural mix of successful people. The old men don't come to fish anymore, as they were run out long ago by racist business owners.

I now reside in Beautiful Central Oregon. I moved here 7 years ago. There are many Hispanics, nearly all are illegal aliens. Nearly all seem to be decent people, but they are very cliquish and don't mingle. Few speak English well, or willingly. I saw no blacks for 2 years here. Now there are probably 20 families or so. Their uneasiness is apparent when you see them around town. They seem very guarded, and probably with good reason. I am seeing the same transition here that I saw LO go through, and it's sad to see the same resistance to "new" people that I saw as a child. This community is 45 years behind LO in terms of racial acceptance.

The reason is you can't teach it. It only comes from personally getting to know people.

Get out and meet someone different. It's fun, and enlightening, and you might make a new friend.
 
Hey Maris I have multiple illegal immigrant friends as I live in Las Vegas.

I tell them often that they would be the last ones I would deport if I were given the authority.
 
Well if you don't understand this, I can't explain it to you. I hope you don't have to be a minority to understand this principle, but maybe that is what it takes.

I agree with your title of the thread, you are out of touch.

Peace and good night

Then you can't explain it to me. When I played hoops, by your measure, I should have been Bobby Gross. Instead I wanted to be Mo Lucas. When I played baseball, I wanted to be Jim Rice, not Freddy Lynn. When I played football, I wanted to be OJ Simpson...okay that one turned out to be a big mistake:crazy:

However, my point is that my entire life I've looked to merit or to admirable characteristics, not skin color, and I'm puzzled why its so important to people. No one has explained it to me in a satisfactory way.
 
Why do role models have to be the same color as you?

They don't.

After my parents, my other role models were selected for their independence of character, their refusal to be molded and assimilated. Their insistence on controlling their own destiny. Their recognition of the basic difference between right and wrong. Their appreciation of beauty in the world.

Mohammed Ali and Roger Maris were my only sports heroes.

Eisenhower and Kennedy were my political heroes.

Jimi Hendrix and Robin Trower were my guitar heroes. :drumroll:
 
With the single exception of Barack Obama, who you insist rose based on his skin color. Puzzling.

barfo

You shouldn't be puzzled; it's pretty clear. As for his rise and why people believe identity politics are so important, it's two different concepts. One is how he got to run for the Presidency, and the other is why people think his election is so important.

And did I say being black was his only quality? If it were, than Dave Chappelle doing his Rick James impression could conceivably be in the White House. I'm pretty sure I've complimented him on his intellect (although I think it's less than Bill Clinton's) and his speaking ability. I've also remarked on his discipline on sounding much more moderate than his voting record would indicate.

A nice try, though.
 
Hey Maris I have multiple illegal immigrant friends as I live in Las Vegas.

I tell them often that they would be the last ones I would deport if I were given the authority.

I would deport them all, as they are here ILLEGALLY.

There are a multitude of good reasons that we have procedures for them to go through to become legal citizens and it's really quite simple to do.

If they can't show my country that small amount of respect, they are bad for my country in the bigger picture.
 
I'm half Japanese and have been teased and made fun of. I looked different from a lot of the "normal" kids in school. Did it stop me from becoming the person I am today? No. Did it make a difference on how I view the white majority? Yes.

Sticks and stones, man. Grow a pair.

Racism should not be an excuse to why you can't make it in this country but the fact is people treat other people differently around the country. To sit there and pretend it doesn't happen is truly naive and you are out of touch. There's not much more I can say about that.

Okay, how do you treat different races differently? How is it systemic?

White people experience racism on other levels as well. When was the last time you saw a white running back or white corner back in the NFL? It doesn't happen very often. It's because coaches automatically stick them at other positions because they have the stigma that white guys aren't as athletic.

That's complete crap. Sports is a meritocracy. If you don't win as a coach, you're fired. As a general rule, West Africans have more fast twitch muscle than do Europeans. That's why they end up at running back or cornerback.

The fact that we just elected a black president shows how far this country has come. But we still have a long ways to go.

My point is this country is a lot less racist and sexist than the media has portrayed it. Numbers are coming out that Obama being half-black actually was a net benefit. That more white people voted for Obama because he was black than those who stated they voted for another candidate because Obama was black. In other words, we're racist in a positive, not negative way. My question is why is it important at all? I just want the best person running our country. I don't think Obama was close to the most qualified candidate or had the best ideas, he just ran the best campaign. Give me Bill Richardson any day of the week on the Democratic side.
 
I would deport them all, as they are here ILLEGALLY.

There are a multitude of good reasons that we have procedures for them to go through to become legal citizens and it's really quite simple to do.

If they can't show my country that small amount of respect, they are bad for my country in the bigger picture.

The sad part is that they actually help your economy by doing jobs noone wants to. And the process to become a legal citizen is expensive and long FYI.
Next time, don't talk out of your ass.
 
Oh yeah. It happens. Players talk about it, they've experienced it first hand. White guys get moved to linebacker and safety, or tight end. If they are wide receivers, they get labeled as possession guys. It's hard for white players in football to stick at certain positions.

Edit: I wanna add this starts in high school when kids are getting groomed to be recruited by colleges. Many of them shift to positions where they will get a better look from bigger schools. The shift from corner to safety is a huge one. Also the kids that play RB at a high level usually have to show that they can make a big impact on defense at the linebacker position.

If you wanna pretend that this doesn't happen then that's your problem. I know a couple of guys in high school that made the switch to try to land a scholarship.

Okay, and I actually played college football. I can assure you we played Kenny Gamble at RB not because he was black, but because no one could tackle him. Oh, and two of our linebackers were black while all of our wide receivers were white.
 
I would deport them all, as they are here ILLEGALLY.

There are a multitude of good reasons that we have procedures for them to go through to become legal citizens and it's really quite simple to do.

If they can't show my country that small amount of respect, they are bad for my country in the bigger picture.

I would too, I just tell the ones I know that they will be the last ones to go.

I wouldn't count on that ever happening though. I guess I am out of touch with the rest of this country myself.
 
And did I say being black was his only quality?

No, but you did say it was his primary advantage. Which is at odds with

maxiep said:
In the end, you rise and fall on your merits. The vast majority of people don't give a shit what color you are, whether you're male or female, who you go to bed with or to which God you pray (or whether you even do). The vast majority of people care whether or not you can do your job or whether or not you're a good person.

barfo
 
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