I guess I'm out of touch.

[maxiep]

and how many McCain and Obama rallies did you attend? I personally didn't attend any, but I can go on youtube and find various hateful McCain supporters. Obama not so much, maybe partly because Obama didn't waste his time and resources plotting together ads attempting to attack McCain's character like the McCain campaign did. By bringing up the distant relationship between Obama and Ayers it opened up a can of worms and added fuel to the fire for the naive right wing nutjobs.

Being in Colorado helped, but I attended at least two Obama rallies, one Biden rally, one McCain rally and one Palin rally.

 

[Colonel Ronan]

But I really don't see the big deal about electing a black person for President, especially someone not brought here by slavery. Then again, I wouldn't see the big deal if Hillary Clinton would have been elected President. The same if Barney Frank, Bobby Jindal, Joe Lieberman or Keith Ellison had been elected.

What am I missing? Why is identity such an important issue? Aren't we all created equal? Why does race, sex, religion, sexual orientation or any other marker matter in the United States of America?

Because it's the first black President? I dunno, usually the first is a big deal. Like your first blow job, first car, first STD, etc, etc.

 

[maxiep]

Though I didn't vote for Obama, I'm happy in many ways that he won (and have said so all along). The biggest reason is exactly because of his race and what it means for race relations and hopefully another dagger to the heart of racism itself.

Maxie, you're a good guy and all that, but you are out of touch. I appreciate and respect the losses to your family going back thousands of years, but all that misses the point here.

When John Adams first moved into the White House (he was the first president to live there), it was still under construction. The construction workers were black slaves. He was served by black slave servants. And Adams was an abolitionist at the time!

The White House is symbolic of how white culture in the US has been built on the backs of blacks (and Chinese and others, but mostly blacks) and slavery. And later, institutionalized racism in the form of laws and rules meant to keep blacks as a source of cheap labor and without the full rights of citizenship or even guests of the nation that everyone else enjoyed. It was OK to work AT the White House as a maid or cook, but not aspire to live there as president. Until the last 20 years or so.

Run BJM's post couldn't begin to describe how institutionalized racism affects black people to this day. The most obvious forms of it are gone (black drinking fountains), it's true. But those racist assholes didn't go away by fiat or declaration by the Supreme Court, and found ways to stick it to black people in other ways. Like fucking up the schools in black neighborhoods, or putting toxic waste dumps in those neighborhoods, or the police patroling those areas making ridiculous traffic stops to effectively hassle people for the color of their skin, or even worse there are stories and lawsuits won by black people over police outright torturing black people after arrest. Roddney King wasn't that long ago. You do realize that until the 1960s (in my lifetime!), black people were systematically denied the right to vote with poll taxes and tests? How about Vietnam, where young men were drafted to serve in a 500,000 man force over there, and blacks served in ridiculous %'s/numbers because they didn't have the societal positions to get out of serving?

My experiences/stories are many on this subject. I'll make this post longer by adding a couple.

In the 1950s and 1960s, the govt. built housing for low income people. Nice shiney new buildings with grinning white guys (like DEMOCRAT mayor Richard J. Daley of Chicago) inviting black people to move in. Once the people did move in, they built freeways around those areas to keep the black people in. The economies of those areas outright sucked because the people were poor and nobody with money would build a business there. Then the govt. let those once fine buildings run down - to the point the paint peeled off the walls and the elevators didn't work so people had to climb 10 flights of stairs with their groceries. These places existed until the 1990s and even in this century - not so long ago indeed. Think Chicago (a northern city) is the only place? Think of South Central or East Palo Alto in California (or even Oakland with the bay as a natural barrier for separation) or Detroit or Cleveland or many other NORTHERN cities.

...

In the 1960s, there was a major migration of black people from the south to the northern cities. I was living on the South Side at the time, in Obama's neighborhood in fact. As black people moved into the neighborhoods, white people fled for the suburbs, taking their money and businesses with them. What was left was some of the most awesome architecture (Frank Lloyd Wright stuff) and people too poor to maintain it. Whtie people go to the banks and get loans to form businesses or buy homes. In my neighborhood, the banks red lined the place and refused to give (black people!) these kinds of loans. The homes declined to the point many were boarded up, dead cars on the lawns up on blocks, landscaping gone to ruin, and those sorts of things.

Things turned around for the people there when they stopped looking to govt. for help and took their own destinies in their own hands. They pooled their money and bought the corner/local banks. The banks gave out loans to the people and businesses formed. The boards came off the windows and the houses were restored. The cars on blocks were removed, the landscaping redone to its once fine look. AND THEN, white people started to move back!

...

If there's a downside to Obama's election, it's truly that it's not about race. He should be appointing black people to every prominent post in his administration, but he won't. He's a tool of the party, unfortunately, which is the biggest reason I could not vote for him. If he did appoint all black people to those positions, it wouldn't be affirmative action - he has the right to appoint who he wants. What it would do is create a new generation of Washington power brokers where there is no glass ceiling for black people.

My $.02.

Other than the Robert Taylor Homes--which was the worst housing project in America--we'll agree to disagree.

 

[maxiep]

Yeah 5-7 people trying to explain the same concept to you but we are all the ones who don't get it. I'm not saying that you're wrong because your in the minority(in fact, that's more of something that YOU would say , pun intended). But seriously, you blatantly contradict yourself and then you backpedal more than Bill O'reilly when he's painted himself into a corner.

First you say that Obama would not even be a senator if he was white. THEN you say that ultimately someone will succeed or fail based on their characteristics. Kind of contradictory as pointed out by others. Then you say "that's not what I meant, nice try though" and change the subject.

That would be a great tactic if we were all your children taking your words out of context so that we could eat candy for breakfast or something, but we are all adults here. So stop trying to patronize everyone and have the balls to admit when you are wrong (for lack of a better word, because one can't really be "wrong" in an opinion).

Try to keep up. It's two different concepts. One is how Obama himself rose to power. He was able to rise largely because of his color. If you've ever been to the South Side of Chicago, perhaps you'd understand. if you're white, you're nowhere politically. Would he have a keynote speech at the 2004 Democratic Covention as an Illinois State Senator if he were white? Likely not. He garnered 92% of the black vote. He was able to label Bill Clinton--arguably the most pro-black president in our history--as "racist". He rose because of his color. On that we can agree.

The other concept is why people feel that his color is important. One can acknowledge that he rose because of his color and yet wonder why his color matters to those that voted for him. Is he going to lead differently because he's black? Are his policies different because he's black? Are the lives of black people different today than they were yesterday because he was elected? Did white people take off the pillowcases with holes for the eyes and sheets we all reportedly wear? So, what makes his color important to people? I believe it's window-dressing and it doesn't matter a whit.

Call me Bill O'Reilly all you wish. but it doesn't make it true. And I have still asked a question that has yet to be answered. In fact you haven't even tried.

 

[maxiep]

Because it's the first black President? I dunno, usually the first is a big deal. Like your first blow job, first car, first STD, etc, etc.

Identity seems to matter to you. It doesn't matter a whit to me, and don't believe it should matter to anyone else.

 

[el_Diablo]

I'm trying really hard not to play the race card, but it saddens me that 92% of black voters voted for Obama

Year - Democrat - Black support -- - Republican - Black support
1984 Walter Mondale - 90% ------ - Ronald Reagan --- 9%
1988 Michael Dukakis - 90% ------ - George H.W. Bush 10%
1992 Bill Clinton ------ 83% ------ - George H.W. Bush 10%
1996 Bill Clinton ------ 84% ------ - Bob Dole -------- 12%
2000 Al Gore --------- 90% ------ - George W. Bush - 9%

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-10-19-kerry-black-vote_x.htm

 

[MARIS61]

Year - Democrat - Black support -- - Republican - Black support
1984 Walter Mondale - 90% ------ - Ronald Reagan --- 9%
1988 Michael Dukakis - 90% ------ - George H.W. Bush 10%
1992 Bill Clinton ------ 83% ------ - George H.W. Bush 10%
1996 Bill Clinton ------ 84% ------ - Bob Dole -------- 12%
2000 Al Gore --------- 90% ------ - George W. Bush - 9%

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-10-19-kerry-black-vote_x.htm

They voted AGAINST the Republican party, which they always have, because the Republican party is respecially against the average guy and those in need in it's views and it's platform.

Their vote is based on what can you do for me and my family and the Dems listen to them.

Your figures prove it has nothing to do with race, as they have always voted that way for white candidates also.

 

[Dumpy]

They voted AGAINST the Republican party, which they always have, because the Republican party is respecially against the average guy and those in need in it's views and it's platform.

Their vote is based on what can you do for me and my family and the Dems listen to them.

Your figures prove it has nothing to do with race, as they have always voted that way for white candidates also.

You also need to show the percent of eligible black voters that actually voted--if the percent of voters went up drastically this year, we could probably blame it on identity politics; if the percentage was roughly the same, then you are probably correct.

 

[el_Diablo]

Your figures prove it has nothing to do with race, as they have always voted that way for white candidates also.

which was, uh.. kind of my point.

 

[maxiep]

Year - Democrat - Black support -- - Republican - Black support
1984 Walter Mondale - 90% ------ - Ronald Reagan --- 9%
1988 Michael Dukakis - 90% ------ - George H.W. Bush 10%
1992 Bill Clinton ------ 83% ------ - George H.W. Bush 10%
1996 Bill Clinton ------ 84% ------ - Bob Dole -------- 12%
2000 Al Gore --------- 90% ------ - George W. Bush - 9%

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-10-19-kerry-black-vote_x.htm

How do you explain 96% of Democratic black voters voting for Obama over Hillary? That was the number after Super Tuesday. Was there that much difference in their policies?

 

[BrianFromWA]

Thanks for the post, Diablo and Maris. I stand corrected. It still seems odd to me, but it's not a new precedent. I also see that the black vote accounted for 13% of the vote...if it's even 70/30, then McCain wins the popular vote.

But it wasn't, and he didn't.

 

[Minstrel]

Identity seems to matter to you. It doesn't matter a whit to me, and don't believe it should matter to anyone else.

To me, that's the key. It shouldn't matter to people, but it has. The long history of racism, in this nation and in other nations, proves that identity and innate characteristics have mattered to people. The fact that a person of a colour that has held people back for more than two centuries in this nation was elected President (and in a landslide) is a sign than identity means less than it used to.

It's not a great thing that we have a black President, in and of itself. It's a great thing that being black didn't prevent him from becoming President. 20 years ago, it would have. That we elected a black President, in my opinion, means that racial identity is becoming less important.

 

[maxiep]

To me, that's the key. It shouldn't matter to people, but it has. The long history of racism, in this nation and in other nations, proves that identity and innate characteristics have mattered to people. The fact that a person of a colour that has held people back for more than two centuries in this nation was elected President (and in a landslide) is a sign than identity means less than it used to.

It's not a great thing that we have a black President, in and of itself. It's a great thing that being black didn't prevent him from becoming President. 20 years ago, it would have. That we elected a black President, in my opinion, means that racial identity is becoming less important.

But people voted for him precisely because of his identity. I'm really struggling with why people find identity important. I'm out of the mainstream on most issues, and I guess my emphasis on a meritocracy is yet another example.

 

[Minstrel]

But people voted for him precisely because of his identity.

Sure. People who have been the victim of identity politics and identity reality wanted to see one of their group succeed. That's an emotional thing.

And many people, I am certain, voted against him due to his identity.

I didn't vote for him due to his skin colour, but I am glad that someone of his skin colour has reached the highest office, because it means that no door is necessarily shut due to skin colour. For many years, many doors were shut purely due to skin colour. This is a sign that that isn't true anymore.

I guess my emphasis on a meritocracy is yet another example.

No, I'd say meritocracy is the mainstream desire. And I think the vast majority of Americans saw Obama as the best candidate in this cycle. That he was black isn't why he was elected, as far as I'm concerned. It's simply nice that his skin colour didn't prevent him, as the candidate most people judged the best, from being elected.

And before we re-start the earlier argument, by "best," I mean superior to all the other candidates...which factors in many people currently thinking Republicans are incompetent.

 

[el_Diablo]

How do you explain 96% of Democratic black voters voting for Obama over Hillary? That was the number after Super Tuesday. Was there that much difference in their policies?

or it could be that their policies were so similar, that obama's race became the deciding factor?

or clintons had some racist tones in the campaign, which turned off the blacks?

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gpUc7hRZvE8yNvBgM9cwfE97CmNg

I don't know really. I didn't follow the primaries too closely.


the point was the general election though. the black vote has traditionally gone to democrats, so 92% is nothing special.

 

[maxiep]

or it could be that their policies were so similar, that obama's race became the deciding factor?

or clintons had some racist tones in the campaign, which turned off the blacks?

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gpUc7hRZvE8yNvBgM9cwfE97CmNg

I don't know really. I didn't follow the primaries too closely.


the point was the general election though. the black vote has traditionally gone to democrats, so 92% is nothing special.

LOL, yeah Bill Clinton is a racist. He's a lot of things, but that man doesn't have a racist bone in his body.

 

[Minstrel]

LOL, yeah Bill Clinton is a racist. He's a lot of things, but that man doesn't have a racist bone in his body.

I don't think Bill Clinton is remotely racist. I do think he (and Hillary) are absolute political animals, who will use any legal tool in the book to win an election. I don't think either of them feels blacks are inferior; I think both of them are capable of trying to use the tool of racial fear to aid them in winning an election.

I'm not saying they did or didn't. I don't know. But I don't think it is related to whether they, themselves, are racist.

 

[el_Diablo]

LOL, yeah Bill Clinton is a racist. He's a lot of things, but that man doesn't have a racist bone in his body.

I didn't know saying "clintons used racist tones in their campaign" means bill is racist. I guess I know now.

at least someone in the interweb thought there was something rotten with the clinton campaign:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0108/7845.html

http://www.blackstarnews.com/?c=117&a=4012

http://richmonddemocrat.blogspot.com/2008/01/dogwhistle-racism-of-hillary-clinton.html

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/12/ferraro.comments/index.html

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/03/14/clinton-campaign-tries-to-recover-from-racism-allegations/

 

[blazerboy30]

How do you explain 96% of Democratic black voters voting for Obama over Hillary? That was the number after Super Tuesday. Was there that much difference in their policies?

This is the key to me. Obama and Hillary were VERY similar in their policies. There is no way it was coincidence that Obama got 96% of the Democratic Black vote over Hillary.

It is pretty ridiculous that people want to use Obama winning as some sort of beacon for this country against racism. Race had a huge role in this election, and the statistics show that there was a lot of racism coming from the black voters (at least in the primaries).

I couldn't care less if Obama is black. But he definitely should not be elected president BECAUSE he is black.

 

[el_Diablo]

if the policies are the same, what then should decide who one votes for?

a coin toss?

or maybe one votes for the candidate that shares some characteristics with the one voting?

 

[blazerboy30]

if the policies are the same, what then should decide who one votes for?

a coin toss?

or maybe one votes for the candidate that shares some characteristics with the one voting?

Show me another demographic that gave 92% of their vote to a candidate in the primaries.

 

[el_Diablo]

Show me another demographic that gave 92% of their vote to a candidate in the primaries.

do you have a link for that 92/96 % figure, by the way?

 

[maxiep]

do you have a link for that 92/96 % figure, by the way?

I heard Chris Matthews quote it the night Obama won the Democratic nomination.

 

[MickZagger]

Being in Colorado helped, but I attended at least two Obama rallies, one Biden rally, one McCain rally and one Palin rally.

The great thing about the internet is that you can make up anything you want and no one can prove whether its true or not.

I get this feeling about you all the time.

 

[maxiep]

The great thing about the internet is that you can make up anything you want and no one can prove whether its true or not.

I get this feeling about you all the time.

And yet you keep interacting with me. Why do I haunt you so? If I were so inconsequential, you'd just blow me off. If I were an internet dork, I'd say that's the very definition of owned.

 

[MickZagger]

People who aspire to be "popular" or "cool" on the internet really peak my curiosity. I have so many questions like why? is it an ego boost? is it insecurity? is real life really that boring?

 

[maxiep]

People who aspire to be "popular" or "cool" on the internet really peak my curiosity. I have so many questions like why? is it an ego boost? is it insecurity? is real life really that boring?

If you've read my posts, the last thing I look is "cool" and I'm certainly not "popular", so I really have no idea what you're getting at. And once again, I invite you to offer a little about your background, your experiences, etc. You seem to have strong opinions, but never take the trouble to back up your reasoning with your life experience.