I guess I'm out of touch.

[maxiep]

Get out and meet someone different. It's fun, and enlightening, and you might make a new friend.

Thanks for telling me about your experiences in highly diverse Oregon. Clearly you didn't read a word of what I posted. Obviously, I met no one different in DC, Chicago or NY. Yep, they were just like Lake Oswego.

Edit: actually, it's pretty cool to hear about LO back when it was small. We moved there in 1973 when it was 14,000. Today, all the forests are subdivisions. I miss the old LO when it was a much more middle class place to live.

 

[bodyman5001]

The sad part is that they actually help your economy by doing jobs noone wants to. And the process to become a legal citizen is expensive and long FYI.
Next time, don't talk out of your ass.

Talking out of his ass?

How about the jobs they do that people DO want to do?

Like welding your car back together after it has been wrecked?

Good luck with that one, you won't crash it again if you know what is good for you.

 

[maxiep]

They don't.

After my parents, my other role models were selected for their independence of character, their refusal to be molded and assimilated. Their insistence on controlling their own destiny. Their recognition of the basic difference between right and wrong. Their appreciation of beauty in the world.

Mohammed Ali and Roger Maris were my only sports heroes.

Eisenhower and Kennedy were my political heroes.

Jimi Hendrix and Robin Trower were my guitar heroes.

That settles it. If MARIS and I agree, you know it has to be right

 

[bodyman5001]

Okay, and I actually played college football. I can assure you we played Kenny Gamble at RB not because he was black, but because no one could tackle him. Oh, and two of our linebackers were black while all of our wide receivers were white.

People can be pretty thick headed.

When I was a kid and my grandma got a new tv and vcr, she was a little stubborn about letting me program the clock and remote for her.

She didn't like that a child was more skilled at doing something like that.

I sometimes wish that people were more inclined to pursue careers that they are suited for instead of what they want to be just because that is what they want to be.

I knew plenty of kids in school that wanted to be doctors because it sounded cool and they made lots of money. Well, I guess that is what malpractice coverage is for.

My brother played football in school and the coach never let him run the ball until the last game of his senior year. He averaged about 8 yards a carry and went well over a hundred for the game. 97 percent of the kids on the team never even got that much of a chance.

SORRY if I rambled, I just think aptitude should matter most in life.

 

[MARIS61]

The sad part is that they actually help your economy by doing jobs noone wants to. And the process to become a legal citizen is expensive and long FYI.
Next time, don't talk out of your ass.

Speaking of talking out your ass, that's BS.

My wife manages a motel. The owner, an Indian, does the hiring.

The clerks are all white.

The maids are all illegal aliens, with splendid documentation, but illegals just the same.

When INS comes to town they have no maids for 5-7 days until it's safe to come out.

She likes them and says most are great workers, except when they don't show.

A few don't pan out, and are fired.

They are all relatives of each other and get hired that way.

No Hispanics ever apply through normal channels or walk in.

Many, many legal, white people walk in looking for a job. Seldom does a day go by without at least one. Times are hard and unemployment in Beautiful Central Oregon is double-digit. 1400 foreclosures and counting. Families are homeless and children are living on the street. They'll do anything. ANYTHING. Most of them use that exact sentence. "I'll do ANYTHING".

People who HAVE jobs actually believe that crap because they think "I wouldn't quit MY job to be a maid.

But people who don't have a job would certainly love a job as a maid. It's simple, clean, and not physically draning. Bus boys, waitresses, waiters, construction laborers, framers, wildfire crews. These are the jobs they take from the community. The bread and butter for jobs here, and some of the better paying. Kids get out of High School and are forced to move to the valley because their own community won't employ them because they are legal Americans. They have an education and they will eventually move on. THAT is why they aren't hired. Their modest High School Diploma has made them un-enslavable. They will have to be treated fairly and rewarded properly for their work effort. Labor and safety laws will have to be followed.

An illegal alien is hired because they will keep their mouth shut, never complain, and never leave because they fear being turned in, found out, and sent back.

You know, slavery.

 

[bodyman5001]

People who HAVE jobs actually believe that crap because they think "I wouldn't quit MY job to be a maid.



.

Your whole post was great but this part is written so perfectly I had to point it out because it is so true.

 

[GMJ]

I hired an illegal to move boxes for me at work!

$10 an hour, can't beat it!

You paid an illegal worker ~twice minimum wage??????

 

[MARIS61]

Thanks for telling me about your experiences in highly diverse Oregon. Clearly you didn't read a word of what I posted. Obviously, I met no one different in DC, Chicago or NY. Yep, they were just like Lake Oswego.

Edit: actually, it's pretty cool to hear about LO back when it was small. We moved there in 1973 when it was 14,000. Today, all the forests are subdivisions. I miss the old LO when it was a much more middle class place to live.

Mt. Park was all forest until around 1967ish. I lived in what they now call the FAN. Next to Tryon Creek State Park. At Forest Hills Elementary, we put together and ran the campaign to save it from development and make it a State Park. A great lesson in community activism for us.

I spent a good portion of my time in the park, and we had several underground forts, tree forts, and rope swings there. Those were the days.

 

[AgentDrazenPetrovic]

You paid an illegal worker ~twice minimum wage??????

Yeah, but most minimum wage workers suck ass. lazy fucking emos.

 

[barfo]

You paid an illegal worker ~twice minimum wage??????

Minimum wage in CA is $8/hr, I believe.

barfo

 

[MickZagger]

I frankly saw more hate from supposedly open-minded liberals than I ever did at McCain or Palin rallies. I also saw Sen. McCain as the only one to call out his own supporters for mistaken beliefs.

and how many McCain and Obama rallies did you attend? I personally didn't attend any, but I can go on youtube and find various hateful McCain supporters. Obama not so much, maybe partly because Obama didn't waste his time and resources plotting together ads attempting to attack McCain's character like the McCain campaign did. By bringing up the distant relationship between Obama and Ayers it opened up a can of worms and added fuel to the fire for the naive right wing nutjobs.

 

[MickZagger]

Wow, you mean you know all about racism from Portland? Sweet. Funny, I never managed to ever talk to one of those people while living in minority neighborhoods in DC, Chicago and NY. I never managed to meet or talk with a person of lower circumstance while spending at least a weekend a month and countless nights and vacations for the past 18 years working for Habitat for Humanity. And if you're picking up on the sarcasm, you should be, because I'm laying it on pretty thick.

Here we go again....

You remind me of this funny little character from an episode of Family Guy. I believe his name was Chester Woodcock III.

You seem to see the world through a much broader scope than us peasants.

 

[Denny Crane]

A percieved barrier huh? Without looking, I'll ask how many Black Americans are in Forbes top 100 richest Americans?

There are still real barriers to be broken.

According to Wikipedia, there are 7 $billionaires with known sub-Saharan ancestry.

Bob Johnson and Oprah are two obvious ones. Bob Johnson's ex-wife got about $500M in the divorce

 

[Denny Crane]

So the reason there isn't a black person in the Forbes top 25 richest American (I'm assuming) is because all black people use excuses instead of just trying to get rich?

Obama, while breaking a major barrier, hasn't broken the barrier I would like to see broken . . . to have a proportionate number of CEOs or whatever in the private sector.

I don't know how long that barrier will take to break . . . it will be harder than being a gov't official. But I suspect there will be a day when seeing the picture of a black man as one of the top 10 richest Americans will happen. I have to feel that way today, I just witness this country elect a black president (i still maintain that the presidency deserves an asterisks . . . or at lest give Bush the assist.)

I think you're making a big mistake with this line of reasoning.

Every black player in the NBA (and NFL, and MLB, etc.) making $1M or more in salary/season is in the top 1% of earners in the nation.

Sports isn't the only way people make $1M/year either. There are plenty of black lawyers and doctors and businessmen who are in that class.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

But I really don't see the big deal about electing a black person for President, especially someone not brought here by slavery. Then again, I wouldn't see the big deal if Hillary Clinton would have been elected President. The same if Barney Frank, Bobby Jindal, Joe Lieberman or Keith Ellison had been elected.

What am I missing? Why is identity such an important issue? Aren't we all created equal? Why does race, sex, religion, sexual orientation or any other marker matter in the United States of America?

I'm with you. To me, people are people. I have never seen the need to see them as black or white, tall or short, fat or skinny, asian or hispanic...

Oh well.

 

[Denny Crane]

Though I didn't vote for Obama, I'm happy in many ways that he won (and have said so all along). The biggest reason is exactly because of his race and what it means for race relations and hopefully another dagger to the heart of racism itself.

Maxie, you're a good guy and all that, but you are out of touch. I appreciate and respect the losses to your family going back thousands of years, but all that misses the point here.

When John Adams first moved into the White House (he was the first president to live there), it was still under construction. The construction workers were black slaves. He was served by black slave servants. And Adams was an abolitionist at the time!

The White House is symbolic of how white culture in the US has been built on the backs of blacks (and Chinese and others, but mostly blacks) and slavery. And later, institutionalized racism in the form of laws and rules meant to keep blacks as a source of cheap labor and without the full rights of citizenship or even guests of the nation that everyone else enjoyed. It was OK to work AT the White House as a maid or cook, but not aspire to live there as president. Until the last 20 years or so.

Run BJM's post couldn't begin to describe how institutionalized racism affects black people to this day. The most obvious forms of it are gone (black drinking fountains), it's true. But those racist assholes didn't go away by fiat or declaration by the Supreme Court, and found ways to stick it to black people in other ways. Like fucking up the schools in black neighborhoods, or putting toxic waste dumps in those neighborhoods, or the police patroling those areas making ridiculous traffic stops to effectively hassle people for the color of their skin, or even worse there are stories and lawsuits won by black people over police outright torturing black people after arrest. Roddney King wasn't that long ago. You do realize that until the 1960s (in my lifetime!), black people were systematically denied the right to vote with poll taxes and tests? How about Vietnam, where young men were drafted to serve in a 500,000 man force over there, and blacks served in ridiculous %'s/numbers because they didn't have the societal positions to get out of serving?

My experiences/stories are many on this subject. I'll make this post longer by adding a couple.

In the 1950s and 1960s, the govt. built housing for low income people. Nice shiney new buildings with grinning white guys (like DEMOCRAT mayor Richard J. Daley of Chicago) inviting black people to move in. Once the people did move in, they built freeways around those areas to keep the black people in. The economies of those areas outright sucked because the people were poor and nobody with money would build a business there. Then the govt. let those once fine buildings run down - to the point the paint peeled off the walls and the elevators didn't work so people had to climb 10 flights of stairs with their groceries. These places existed until the 1990s and even in this century - not so long ago indeed. Think Chicago (a northern city) is the only place? Think of South Central or East Palo Alto in California (or even Oakland with the bay as a natural barrier for separation) or Detroit or Cleveland or many other NORTHERN cities.

...

In the 1960s, there was a major migration of black people from the south to the northern cities. I was living on the South Side at the time, in Obama's neighborhood in fact. As black people moved into the neighborhoods, white people fled for the suburbs, taking their money and businesses with them. What was left was some of the most awesome architecture (Frank Lloyd Wright stuff) and people too poor to maintain it. Whtie people go to the banks and get loans to form businesses or buy homes. In my neighborhood, the banks red lined the place and refused to give (black people!) these kinds of loans. The homes declined to the point many were boarded up, dead cars on the lawns up on blocks, landscaping gone to ruin, and those sorts of things.

Things turned around for the people there when they stopped looking to govt. for help and took their own destinies in their own hands. They pooled their money and bought the corner/local banks. The banks gave out loans to the people and businesses formed. The boards came off the windows and the houses were restored. The cars on blocks were removed, the landscaping redone to its once fine look. AND THEN, white people started to move back!

...

If there's a downside to Obama's election, it's truly that it's not about race. He should be appointing black people to every prominent post in his administration, but he won't. He's a tool of the party, unfortunately, which is the biggest reason I could not vote for him. If he did appoint all black people to those positions, it wouldn't be affirmative action - he has the right to appoint who he wants. What it would do is create a new generation of Washington power brokers where there is no glass ceiling for black people.

My $.02.

 

[¹²³]

Click to enlarge.

 

[Jurassic]

Thanks for your opinion, Jurassic. You still don't get it, though.

Yeah 5-7 people trying to explain the same concept to you but we are all the ones who don't get it. I'm not saying that you're wrong because your in the minority(in fact, that's more of something that YOU would say , pun intended). But seriously, you blatantly contradict yourself and then you backpedal more than Bill O'reilly when he's painted himself into a corner.

First you say that Obama would not even be a senator if he was white. THEN you say that ultimately someone will succeed or fail based on their characteristics. Kind of contradictory as pointed out by others. Then you say "that's not what I meant, nice try though" and change the subject.

That would be a great tactic if we were all your children taking your words out of context so that we could eat candy for breakfast or something, but we are all adults here. So stop trying to patronize everyone and have the balls to admit when you are wrong (for lack of a better word, because one can't really be "wrong" in an opinion).

 

[The_Lillard_King]

I think you're making a big mistake with this line of reasoning.

Every black player in the NBA (and NFL, and MLB, etc.) making $1M or more in salary/season is in the top 1% of earners in the nation.

Sports isn't the only way people make $1M/year either. There are plenty of black lawyers and doctors and businessmen who are in that class.

I'm not talking about the top 1%, I'm talking about the richest Americans in the country, not millions but billions.

Sure every black professional athlete is making good cash. I think parts of the entertainment industry is an area where barriers have clearly been broken. I would like to see more black owners, but again the entertainment industry isn't the problem.

And yes there are black lawyers and doctors (plenty is all relative, here in Portland you have to search to find a black lawyer or doctor . . . up until 1998 there wasn't one black law partner in the top 10 law firms in Portland . . .and we are talking hundreds of partners . . . today I think there are at least a couple).

But, IMO, people shouldn't be content with the fact there are balck lawyers, doctors and athletes. It's about ceiling and barriers. A huge one was broken last night . . . now I would like to see the barriers come down in the economic situation. With the percentage of black American in this country, I figure at least one should make the top ten richest American . . . it will take time and an incredible feat for the person doing it . . . but as I said, after last night i think it is jsut a matter of time.

 

[drexlersdad]

out of all the american sports franchises, how many owners are black? i can only think of one, johnson in Charlotte. like chris rock said there is a difference from rich and wealth. shaq is rich, the person who signs his checks has wealth.

it is a historic election, but we have a looooong way to go. alot of people say this is not a big deal, but for all the people who said "you can be anything you want to be, even the president!", for millions of colored childeren it is now actually proven to be possible. i say hooray. not to mention that mccain is an assclown.

 

[Denny Crane]

I'm not talking about the top 1%, I'm talking about the richest Americans in the country, not millions but billions.

Sure every black professional athlete is making good cash. I think parts of the entertainment industry is an area where barriers have clearly been broken. I would like to see more black owners, but again the entertainment industry isn't the problem.

And yes there are balck lawyers and doctores (plenty is all relative, here in Portland you have to search to find a black lawyer or doctor . . . up until 1998 there wasn't one black law partner in the top 10 law firms in Portland . . .and we are talking hundreds of partners . . . today I think there are at least a couple).

But, IMO, people shouldn't be content with the fact there are balck lawyers, doctors and athletes. It's about ceiling and barriers. A huge one was broken last night . . . now I would like to see the barriers come down in the economic situation. With the percentage of black American in this country, I figure at least one should make the top ten richest American . . . it will take time and an incredible feat for the person doing it . . . but as I said, after last night i think it is jsut a matter of time.

Many of the very richest people founded internet companies or high tech companies in the past few years. The Walton family has several on the list of top 10. There are several financial moguls on the list as well.

Oprah is probably the richest african american at $2.5B, certainly in the top 100.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

.

Oprah is probably the richest african american at $2.5B, certainly in the top 100.

Not that certain . . . or at laest according to this list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Americans_by_net_worth

If Oprah is the richest black American, then there are none in the top 140 . . . still work to be done, huh?

 

[The_Lillard_King]

out of all the american sports franchises, how many owners are black? i can only think of one, johnson in Charlotte. like chris rock said there is a difference from rich and wealth. shaq is rich, the person who signs his checks has wealth.

That is a great quote . . . I would steal it but everyone knows Chris Rock and would know I'm a poser.

A line that made me laugh last night . . . from this point on, history dates will go down as BB and AB . . . before barrack and after Barrack.

 

[Denny Crane]

Not that certain . . . or at laest according to this list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Americans_by_net_worth

If Oprah is the richest black American, then there are none in the top 140 . . . still work to be done, huh?

Expanding wealth takes time. Oprah's gone from $200M to $2.5B in a good amount of time.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Expanding wealth takes time. Oprah's gone from $200M to $2.5B in a good amount of time.

Are you as certain about that as you are that Oprah is currently in the top 100?

Just having fun.

Peace

 

[CelticKing]

If there's a downside to Obama's election, it's truly that it's not about race. He should be appointing black people to every prominent post in his administration, but he won't. He's a tool of the party, unfortunately, which is the biggest reason I could not vote for him. If he did appoint all black people to those positions, it wouldn't be affirmative action - he has the right to appoint who he wants. What it would do is create a new generation of Washington power brokers where there is no glass ceiling for black people.

Only if they're qualified of course, that's my only issue in this country, I'm not racist or anything, and have African American friends, but there are a lot of black people that expect things to be handed out to them because their ancestors suffered in the hands of the white people. Again not all, but there are a lot that do that.

I even told my dad today that I wouldn't care even if a Serbian became the president of the United States, be it that he/she is qualified for the position. (even though Serbians are our #1 enemy, and we were at war with them 9 years ago)

 

[Dumpy]

Only if they're qualified of course, that's my only issue in this country, I'm not racist or anything, and have African American friends, but there are a lot of black people that expect things to be handed out to them because their ancestors suffered in the hands of the white people. Again not all, but there are a lot that do that.

I even told my dad today that I wouldn't care even if a Serbian became the president of the United States, be it that he/she is qualified for the position. (even though Serbians are our #1 enemy, and we were at war with them 9 years ago)

It shouldn't matter what a person is, in terms of color, religion, race, beliefs, ancestry, etc.--so long as they themselves don't have hatred in their hearts for people not like them.

 

[BrianFromWA]

(This is a post for another site, but it looks like it could go here)

Congratulations to the President-elect.

I sincerely hope he is the man he said he was (and is going to be) from the campaign, and not from his past. I sincerely hope he changed his stripes, and didn't just dupe the American people with a great sales pitch of a campaign.

I'm trying really hard not to play the race card, but it saddens me that 92% of black voters voted for Obama. I mean, is there ANY group of people that unanimously agree with the principles and character of a candidate? Even the heavily-Obama "youth vote" was "only" 70/30. Women voted ~65% for Hillary in the primary season. Maybe now that the excitement of "first black president" ceiling has happened, we can go back to voting for the best candidate (which is fine if you think Obama is the best candidate), not the one who looks most like you. That's racism. It's not because he went through the "perils of slavery". He's a first-generation bi-racial Kenyan. And I'm kind of with Maxie on this one, which doesn't seem too popular. Any other white guys in here been to the Apollo? I thought it'd be cool to go w/a bunch of my black Navy buddies during Fleet Week. Show was funny as heck, for the most part. Though the first 2 minutes of each comedy routine were usually set aside to make fun of the white guy in the audience. It was ok, though, not like being a Blazer fan at Staples.

Many of you know I really like collecting "experiences". For instance, I lived with 3 black guys in South Carolina at one of my duty stations. I ended up watching a lot of BET. One was a special on the use of the N-word (circa 2002). The correspondents were asking rappers/entertainers why they still used the n-word, while denouncing when guys like Eminem used it. They would, to a man/woman, say that it's a word for black people to use, b/c others didn't know anything about slavery. When asked about Jennifer Lopez, who had just used it in one of her songs, the reply was "Oh, for her it's ok. She's Puerto Rican. That's basically a Mexican N*****".

We have, in the military, many generals and admirals who are minorities (to include Asian-Americans, black people of all nationalities -- including Ricky Williams' cousin Mel -- women, Muslims, etc). Do a lot of minorities say "I'm joining the military, because people who look like me have risen to the pinnacle of the profession?" That's not been my experience...maybe someone can enlighten me. We have, in my office at an Aerospace Engineering firm, many minorities making a lot more money than those who just went on strike, but relatively few African-Americans. Is it because of our hiring practices? Or that there aren't as many African-Americans getting engineering degrees as Asian-Americans, Native Americans, Indians or women? Is it racist that most of the hourly labor at the company is comprised of lower-middle-class white people?

Maybe I've been lucky. I've been in the military since i was 2. I've lived in many more varied places than Oregon and Washington, to include the Northeast, deep south, California, Northwest, Native American reservations, Europe, Japan and Africa. I've lived alongside about every aspect of society other than big-city inner cities (never in LA, Chicago, NYC). I don't consciously treat people differently based on skin, sexuality or gender. I do treat people differently based on their merits. For instance, contracts person that didn't do a good job for me wasn't used anymore, so I went to another contracts person to get better results. It wasn't because he was a man and she was a woman. It was because one did the job and one didn't.

I mean, would it be right if I voted McCain just because "he was white?"

That said, I hope the President-elect does what he said he would. I hope that his government will I have to figure out how to get into government.

 

[maxiep]

Here we go again....

You remind me of this funny little character from an episode of Family Guy. I believe his name was Chester Woodcock III.

You seem to see the world through a much broader scope than us peasants.

I believe in being specific in answering charges. Clearly the facts of my life bother you. If you believe yourself to have a superior point of view, then tell us about your background. It's easy to criticize; it's a little harder to show what you've contributed. Put up or shut up.

 

[CelticKing]

It shouldn't matter what a person is, in terms of color, religion, race, beliefs, ancestry, etc.--so long as they themselves don't have hatred in their hearts for people not like them.

Exactly.