I never thought I'd say this.... but I miss Frye. Howard is a joke.

[MIXUM]

Which player said in the pre season that getting Miller, Howard, and Webster was an upgrade?

That might be the funniest line of the season because Howard is absolute garbage at thi spoint in his career. i would take Frye 1000 times before Howard. Now dont get me wrong... i think frye is pretty bad but at least he can offer something. Howard is just another Blazer who cant finish at the rim and has butter on his hands. then theres webster who cant hita three pointer to save his life. Has he made once since the opener?

Like i said earlier... just play cunningham so our jackass GM can realize we need a trade.

 

[Sedatedfork]

Which player said in the pre season that getting Miller, Howard, and Webster was an upgrade?

That might be the funniest line of the season because Howard is absolute garbage at thi spoint in his career. i would take Frye 1000 times before Howard. Now dont get me wrong... i think frye is pretty bad but at least he can offer something. Howard is just another Blazer who cant finish at the rim and has butter on his hands. then theres webster who cant hita three pointer to save his life. Has he made once since the opener?

Like i said earlier... just play cunningham so our jackass GM can realize we need a trade.

Totally agree that Howard is garbage. I have been wanting to see him get some burn, as I think he can be a serviceable backup. Like Nik said in an another thread, Howard looks like he needs to just retire.

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

Frye would be the exact player this year as he was the last two season.

He's in a system now that's simple and fast. It doesn't hurt to have a PG like Nash running it either. He sounds happy as hell to get out of Nate's system. "Get to an open spot and take the shot" here in Portland it's get to an open spot and pass out and use as much clock as possible.

We do need a legit backup PF and a legit starting SF but I really don't have faith in KP to get that done.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Totally agree that Howard is garbage. I have been wanting to see him get some burn, as I think he can be a serviceable backup. Like Nik said in an another thread, Howard looks like he needs to just retire.

Actually I said I thought he looked like he was about a half step from the glue factory

I think he's a great 14th or 15th man, but unfortunately injuries have bumped him up to rotation level, and for whatever reason Nate trusts the fact that he's been in the league for years and years over puttting in a rookie who might have more physical tools, but probably is going to get burned on D as he learns to play at this level more than he can tolerate.

They're in a helluva tough spot.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Frye would be the exact player this year as he was the last two season.

He's in a system now that's simple and fast. It doesn't hurt to have a PG like Nash running it either. He sounds happy as hell to get out of Nate's system. "Get to an open spot and take the shot" here in Portland it's get to an open spot and pass out and use as much clock as possible.

We do need a legit backup PF and a legit starting SF but I really don't have faith in KP to get that done.

Sadly, I think this is the correct call. Even though Nate's offense seems incredibly simple and almost crude in some ways, it certainly doesn't appear that he makes the game simple for his players.

In my opinion, Frye would be the same sucktastic player he was last year because Nate tries to make players fit a system versus making a system to fit his players, and that's not unique; most coaches in the NBA (or any level for that matter) aren't able to do this.

Oh how I wish Rick Adelman had become Portland's version of Jerry Sloan.

 

[Kaydow]

I'm in Pullman, WA this weekend (for the OSU v WSU game) so I didn't see the game last night. Apparently Howard was pretty bad. He hasn't played much, so I'm willing to give him a mulligan. The guy has some skills (or at least HAD some) That dunk he had down the lane in Atlanta looked pretty nice. I would NOT trade him for Frye right now. Frye is a terrible PF. Terrible. Terrible post defender, and terrible rebounder. I'd rather have Howard, even if he's old and washed up.

 

[drexlersdad]

I'm in Pullman, WA this weekend (for the OSU v WSU game) so I didn't see the game last night. Apparently Howard was pretty bad. He hasn't played much, so I'm willing to give him a mulligan. The guy has some skills (or at least HAD some) That dunk he had down the lane in Atlanta looked pretty nice. I would NOT trade him for Frye right now. Frye is a terrible PF. Terrible. Terrible post defender, and terrible rebounder. I'd rather have Howard, even if he's old and washed up.

frye is playing great in phx, i watched a little of him and he was really high energy on defense, and making shots.

 

[magnifier661]

Which player said in the pre season that getting Miller, Howard, and Webster was an upgrade?

That might be the funniest line of the season because Howard is absolute garbage at thi spoint in his career. i would take Frye 1000 times before Howard. Now dont get me wrong... i think frye is pretty bad but at least he can offer something. Howard is just another Blazer who cant finish at the rim and has butter on his hands. then theres webster who cant hita three pointer to save his life. Has he made once since the opener?

Like i said earlier... just play cunningham so our jackass GM can realize we need a trade.

Well you hated Frye when he was a Blazer. Maybe it's not players we need. Maybe it's something else. Why is it that a ex-blazer goes to another team and do so well?

 

[Sedatedfork]

Well you hated Frye when he was a Blazer. Maybe it's not players we need. Maybe it's something else. Why is it that a ex-blazer goes to another team and do so well?

It is because this team has needed a consolidation trade for about 3 years. Players who are on our bench deserve more minutes, but aren't getting consistent minutes due to the perception (valid or not) that the players ahead of them on the depth chart are better or are more able to help the team win. Without consistent minutes, they play inconsistently and play tight knowing that a few mistakes might relegate them to the bench for the rest of the game or longer. So, Frye, just like Webster, Bayless, etc. will play below their potential on the Blazers and then if they go to another team will play much better. This will continue until KP can pull the trigger on a consolidation trade. Problems is, who do you give up? Who do you get? Are Blake and Trout going to be resigned? If not, might as well trade them as their contracts are cap relief for some team. If they are going to be resigned, then you might as well trade either Miller, Bayless or Rudy, as they will never get any permanent run on this team.

 

[Ed O]

Hmm... I thought I had posted in this thread, but don't see it.

Howard is what we should have known he is: a bad NBA basketball player. He's old and hasn't been anything noteworthy in a few years.

KP should have moved to get a superior backup power forward... and while I appreciate the effort to get Millsap, it was pretty obvious Utah was not going to let him escape. A player like Amir Johnson was had for a contract, and Drew Gooden would have been a pretty good fit, too.

As for Frye: I don't miss him a bit, except insofar as we didn't even replace him with someone as good as he is.

Ed O.

 

[andalusian]

Well you hated Frye when he was a Blazer. Maybe it's not players we need. Maybe it's something else. Why is it that a ex-blazer goes to another team and do so well?

Because he is a finesse player that does not play defense - and he has gone to a system where his shooting and finesse face-up skills are used, and he is not asked to play defense.

James Jones played great here, but he is rotting on the bench in Miami, Jarret Jack has not played much elsewhere - and he was a starter here for a year, Sergio got a lot more minutes here where people said he was not appreciated - and he now plays even less elsewhere.

Howard is in the position he is because Nic (who is as big as Outlaw and can play PF in a small line-up) is wounded, Outlaw who plays backup PF is wounded and the other big and burly backup PF we drafted (Pendergraph) is wounded. Add the fact that the need to have the 3 guard line-up (because Webster is not a good team defender) makes us a small team - and Nate can not play Dante much - or we will be outrebounded even worse - and it is pretty clear why he gives Howard the minutes so far.

I believe Nik correctly said that Howard is a nice 14-15th guy off the bench, but because of injuries and the position he plays, he is now #9 in the rotation. That's just not a good thing, but it is what it is.

Other teams play with injuries, we need to do it as well.

I did not see the game last night - but if the team is really lethargic - the problem is the players, not the system. You should not be out-hustled when you are not playing a back-to-back.

 

[andalusian]

KP should have moved to get a superior backup power forward... and while I appreciate the effort to get Millsap, it was pretty obvious Utah was not going to let him escape. A player like Amir Johnson was had for a contract, and Drew Gooden would have been a pretty good fit, too.

For our needs, we did replace him someone that is better than him, at least as far as toughness and rebounding goes - unfortunately, he got hurt (Pendergraph). Frye is what he is - and he just never worked here and I doubt he ever would have.

Injuries have really killed this team - we lost our starting SF, the replacement (Webster) is nowhere near as good a defender (and the way he is playing now, maybe not even as good an offensive player), this requires the use of the 3 guard line, and Portland is now a smaller team, Outlaw is out - so Nate can not use Pendergraph to hustle inside, and Dante is more of a smaller PF for small-lines - so he is using Howard. It sucks, but it is what it is.

Sure, it would have been nice if we had Collins now instead of Mills, but sometimes - injuries just leave you depleted.

 

[Ed O]

For our needs, we did replace him someone that is better than him, at least as far as toughness and rebounding goes - unfortunately, he got hurt (Pendergraph). Frye is what he is - and he just never worked here and I doubt he ever would have.

Pendergraph was nothing special even in college. I think it's quite unlikely that his "toughness and rebounding" would have made any kind of impact for this team.

Injuries have really killed this team - we lost our starting SF, the replacement (Webster) is nowhere near as good a defender (and the way he is playing now, maybe not even as good an offensive player), this requires the use of the 3 guard line, and Portland is now a smaller team, Outlaw is out - so Nate can not use Pendergraph to hustle inside, and Dante is more of a smaller PF for small-lines - so he is using Howard. It sucks, but it is what it is.

Injuries now are irrelevant to the fact that we had a GLARING need for a backup power forward. Relying on Outlaw was not wise, IMO, and Pendergraph and Howard were both bad acquisitions given our lack of a true backup power forward.

Sure, it would have been nice if we had Collins now instead of Mills, but sometimes - injuries just leave you depleted.

I don't think Collins would be any better than Howard. We missed opportunities to pick up better players this offseason and KP is to blame.

Doesn't mean he's a moron or that he should be fired, but he messed up in this case.

Ed O.

 

[andalusian]

Pendergraph was nothing special even in college. I think it's quite unlikely that his "toughness and rebounding" would have made any kind of impact for this team.

Pendergraph pretty much played Blair head to head when they went at it in summer league. He is taller and he is strong - as a 3rd big PF on the roster - he is fine.

Injuries now are irrelevant to the fact that we had a GLARING need for a backup power forward. Relying on Outlaw was not wise, IMO, and Pendergraph and Howard were both bad acquisitions given our lack of a true backup power forward.

I disagree. We have 4 serious injuries on the roster now and 3 of them are effecting the need for a backup PF. If Outlaw was still around - not an issue, if Batum was around - we would not need the 3 guard line and we could play Dante at the 4 and still rebound well, if P-Graph was still around, we could have had a burly tough PF to play these 10 minutes a game next to Joel. Injuries are not just relevant, they are clearly THE reason for this trouble.

I don't think Collins would be any better than Howard. We missed opportunities to pick up better players this offseason and KP is to blame.

Collins in the few minutes he playes at PHX, a team whose style he is a lot less suited for than Portland, has been 4 times better than Howard this year.

Doesn't mean he's a moron or that he should be fired, but he messed up in this case.

I do not think that's the case. The team carried 5 power-forwards on the roster (LMA, Outlaw, Pendergraph, Howard and Dante) - with 2 of them giving you starter like+ production (LMA, Outlaw). In a 15 players deep roster, that's more than enough. Logically, a team should have 3 players per position on a 15 players roster. We just got hit really bad with injuries to 2 power-forwards and one small-forward that made us as thin as we are in this position.

It is unrealistic to expect KP to prepare for any kind of injury issues. The team had/has enough power-forwards on the roster. Injuries just killed us.

 

[Ed O]

Pendergraph pretty much played Blair head to head when they went at it in summer league. He is taller and he is strong - as a 3rd big PF on the roster - he is fine.

I don't put much of any credence into a single matchup in summer league. Sorry.

I do not think that's the case. The team carried 5 power-forwards on the roster (LMA, Outlaw, Pendergraph, Howard and Dante) - with 2 of them giving you starter like+ production (LMA, Outlaw). In a 15 players deep roster, that's more than enough. Logically, a team should have 3 players per position on a 15 players roster. We just got hit really bad with injuries to 2 power-forwards and one small-forward that made us as thin as we are in this position.

I don't think Dante is a power forward. It appears that neither do the Blazers.

Outlaw is a constant from last year... we needed an upgrade at the backup power forward spot whether Outlaw is here or not, since he's a lousy rebounder and doesn't defend most power forwards well.

Pendergraph is, IMO, a borderline roster guy, not a rotation player.

I was all for losing Frye, but I didn't anticipate we would do so little to replace him.

It is unrealistic to expect KP to prepare for any kind of injury issues. The team had/has enough power-forwards on the roster. Injuries just killed us.

We disagree. We were less deep at the power forward spot than we were last year, and it was a clear weakness last year... that adds up to even more weakness at the spot.

Ed O.

 

[andalusian]

I don't put much of any credence into a single matchup in summer league. Sorry.

I do put a good deal of credence in the Blazer's scouts. I do put a lot of credence into the fact that Pendergraph was the most efficient scorer (per possession) in College Basketball last year - better than Psyco-T, better than Blair, better than anyone else that played college ball.

http://www.draftexpress.com/stats.php?q=usage&sort=13&league=NCAA&year=2008/09

He is what he is - he is a big, strong, hard-nose power-forward role player which is exactly what this team needed behind LMA and Outlaw. The Blazers had a chance to reach for the sky (in Millsap) - and they did. By the time it was over and did not work, Bass was no longer available, David Lee did not want to come and play behind GO and LMA - so they had to go as they did - which would have worked just fine if we did not have 2 additional injuries on top of Pendergraph.

I don't think Dante is a power forward. It appears that neither do the Blazers.

We have no proof of that (actually, we have proof that they think he just that) - you are just extrapolating your opinion with the fact that they choose to play Howard over him because of rebounding issues. If we actually look at his detailed 82games.com stats - you will see that all minutes he played this year, were at PF. If the Blazers did not think he is a PF - they sure are confused when they call his number to play...

http://www.82games.com/0910/09POR8.HTM

Outlaw is a constant from last year... we needed an upgrade at the backup power forward spot whether Outlaw is here or not, since he's a lousy rebounder and doesn't defend most power forwards well.

Outlaw is not a good rebounder (lousy is too strong a word for him, he had a 10% TRB% this year which is not bad playing next to guys like Oden and Pryzbilla, that's basically the same as what Frye gets playing next to Amare - who is not even as good a rebounder as LMA) - but the does not defend most power-forwards well stuff is just bogus. His PER advantage over in production over the PFs he was guarding has been very good this year and last year. Sure, he is not an elite defender - but he is not the complete slouch you think he is. He was at +5.1 PER this year at the PF position, and he was +3.1 PER last year at this position. Where Outlaw has problems on defense, it's against small-forwards, not power-forwards.

Pendergraph is, IMO, a borderline roster guy, not a rotation player.

This team did not get him to be a rotation guy this year, but to be a 10 mpg in case of injuries - where he is more than enough and a much better fit than Frye, simply for the reason that he is not allergic to the paint. Unfortunately, when injuries happened, he iwas injured as well.

 

[Ed O]

I do put a good deal of credence in the Blazer's scouts. I do put a lot of credence into the fact that Pendergraph was the most efficient scorer (per possession) in College Basketball last year - better than Psyco-T, better than Blair, better than anyone else that played college ball.

http://www.draftexpress.com/stats.php?q=usage&sort=13&league=NCAA&year=2008/09

Did he get drafted to be a tough rebounder or an efficient scorer?

And if he's that good, why did they draft Cunningham (who you claim is a PF, too)?

We have no proof of that (actually, we have proof that they think he just that) - you are just extrapolating your opinion with the fact that they choose to play Howard over him because of rebounding issues. If we actually look at his detailed 82games.com stats - you will see that all minutes he played this year, were at PF. If the Blazers did not think he is a PF - they sure are confused when they call his number to play...

http://www.82games.com/0910/09POR8.HTM

You first cite a single summer league game and now 82games.com's breakdown of DC's 14 minutes (primarily in garbage time)? I'm sorry... I'm not buying that kind of data as evidence.

This team did not get him to be a rotation guy this year, but to be a 10 mpg in case of injuries - where he is more than enough and a much better fit than Frye, simply for the reason that he is not allergic to the paint. Unfortunately, when injuries happened, he iwas injured as well.

Sorry. Not buying it. I believed at the end of the year that the team should have UPGRADED THE BACKUP FORWARD SPOT.

They did not do so. Using a second rounder or two on four year seniors doesn't add up to an upgrade. Adding a guy who hasn't been any good in three years isn't an upgrade. It might have been all righty IF everyone stayed entirely healthy, but why would we ever count on that?

It's biting the team in the ass right now.

Ed O.

 

[andalusian]

Did he get drafted to be a tough rebounder or an efficient scorer?

He is an efficient scorer because he is mostly a garbage player, creating for himself as off offensive rebounds. They did not run plays for him at Arizona State.

And if he's that good, why did they draft Cunningham (who you claim is a PF, too)?

Because he is a different kind of player. He is a PF in the Carl Landry mold - smaller, but with a better face-up game and jump-shooting.

Houston has a Chuck Hayes (who is a shorter Pendergraph type) and Carl Landry. They are different players who work in different lines as a PF. The idea was to have one back-up the PF position when there is a need for rebounds and guarding big guys and the other to play in small-ball and guard the smaller, more perimeter, face-up kind of PFs.

You first cite a single summer league game and now 82games.com's breakdown of DC's 14 minutes (primarily in garbage time)? I'm sorry... I'm not buying that kind of data as evidence.

Well, it is some data. He played his entire college career as a PF, he was envisioned as a PF by most scouts (per the draft web sites) and he played all his time in the NBA (little as it was) as a PF. You are really calling me out for the small sample size when you have nothing but your opinion to back it up? Fine with me, you are not buying it, I get it - but until proven otherwise, the data (little as it is) seems to back my opinion better than yours.

If I have to choose between the way I see it and some data to back it up or what you think and no data to back it up, well, excuse me for going with my analysis...

 

[drexlersdad]

I do put a good deal of credence in the Blazer's scouts. I do put a lot of credence into the fact that Pendergraph was the most efficient scorer (per possession) in College Basketball last year - better than Psyco-T, better than Blair, better than anyone else that played college ball.

of course, blair DID lead the ncaa in PER. oh and minutes played THIS year.

 

[andalusian]

of course, blair DID lead the ncaa in PER. oh and minutes played THIS year.

I do not think there is any reason to believe that Blair is not a better player than either of the ones we drafted. But it is also understood why they were worried about drafting him.

He is an injury concern and he is short and he was overweight. They chose to go with the other guys - and I believe that they drafted both to be power-forwards and I do believe that if we did not have the injuries to Travis and Batum - we would have been better at this position.

 

[crowTrobot]

frye is playing great in phx, i watched a little of him and he was really high energy on defense, and making shots.

did you watch the NO game? his shot wasn't falling and he looked like his old useless lost self out there, really hurting the team on D. in fact got yanked in the 2nd half and didn't play at all in the 4th Q in favor of dudley.

 

[Ed O]

did you watch the NO game? his shot wasn't falling and he looked like his old useless lost self out there, really hurting the team on D. in fact got yanked in the 2nd half and didn't play at all in the 4th Q in favor of dudley.

Indeed. ANY player that hits about 50% of his three pointers in a game is going to be potentially useful... it's when he isn't hitting (and, of course, not doing much of anything else) that he's worthless.

Ed O.

 

[KingSpeed]

I wish we had Frye too. If we had him, we would've won the game in GS. It sucks, we've lost a THIRD of the team that won 54 games last season.

 

[crowTrobot]

I wish we had Frye too. If we had him, we would've won the game in GS.

lol

 

[KingSpeed]

lol

Joel/Frye is way better than Joel/Howard. We lost the game because of that stretch of Joel/Howard in the second quarter.

 

[fumanchu]

I would take Ike Diogu over Howard and Frye right about now.

 

[KingSpeed]

How bout Donyell Marshall?

 

[VanillaGorilla]

Antoine Walker needs some cash!

 

[KingSpeed]

Antoine Walker needs some cash!

True.

 

[Nikolokolus]

After watching tonight's game in person, I almost get the impression that Dante Cunningham is in fact a legitimate NBA player ... Juwan Howard is in fact not.