OT "I'm Dealing With A Few Transgender Issues"

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EL PRESIDENTE said:
This is what I agree with:

If transgender women are women, then they should be able to compete in women's sports.
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But if transgender women are men then where do they fit in? Why don't they have this same conversation if transgender men are actually women?
Now that was my point.
 
Fairly-Hard said:
But if transgender women are men then where do they fit in? Why don't they have this same conversation if transgender men are actually women?
Now that was my point.
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Society needs to pick one side and stick with it.

You can either:

1. Acknowledge the trans-person's desired gender as their gender.
2. Acknowledge the trans-person's birth gender as their gender
3. Classify trans persons into their own separate category.
 
EL PRESIDENTE said:
Society needs to pick one side and stick with it.

You can either:

1. Acknowledge the trans-person's desired gender as their gender.
2. Acknowledge the trans-person's birth gender as their gender
3. Classify trans persons into their own separate category.
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Ha Ha. I want to agree so much but Good Luck with THAT! Even the Libs would meltdown. Not to mention what the conservatives would do if they chose door #1.
 
EL PRESIDENTE said:
This is what I agree with:

If transgender women are women, then they should be able to compete in women's sports.
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Disagree. I don't think the best course of action for the health of a sports league should dictate how society treats a person.

These are seperate issues.
 
EL PRESIDENTE said:
So you don't see trans-women as women then.
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I don't think trans women are biologically the same as naturally born women.

As such they will have different advantages and disadvantages.

They will have physical advantages which make women's sports less competitive, hence less entertaining, hence less viable.

This is not good for women's sports, hence should not be required.

If a given sport bans trans women from competing I believe trans women should be able to compete at the highest level if they can compete, as long as they meet all other requirements (PED testing, etc).
 
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Phatguysrule said:
They will have physical advantages which make women's sports less competitive, hence less entertaining, hence less viable.
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I don't think this is the point though.

Edit - just to clarify, I think a bunch of trans women who can dunk like LeBron would absolutely make women's hoops more entertaining, but that's not really the point.
 
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Phatguysrule said:
I'm not sure what you mean.
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Sorry, I added a clarification but it was too late. You mentioned entertainment and viability and I think that's the wrong way to approach it because if you added a bunch of trans women who can dunk like LeBron to women's hoops, it would make it more entertaining, wouldn't it? But that's not really the point.
 
Natebishop3 said:
Sorry, I added a clarification but it was too late. You mentioned entertainment and viability and I think that's the wrong way to approach it because if you added a bunch of trans women who can dunk like LeBron to women's hoops, it would make it more entertaining, wouldn't it? But that's not really the point.
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It's not as entertaining for the women playing, hence you would likely see fewer women playing.

I would not be at all interested in watching trans women dunk all over women in women's basketball. I actually don't think anybody would be very impressed by that. Which is kind of the point... Why watch that when you can go watch the NBA? If that's what you're looking for...

However, if that's what the WNBA thinks will be best for their league, they should allow it. But they should not be forced one way or the other.

I think each sport/league should be able to make their own decision on this one.
 
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Phatguysrule said:
It's not as entertaining for the women playing, hence you would likely see fewer women playing.

I would not be at all interested in watching trans women dunk all over women in women's basketball. I actually don't think anybody would be very impressed by that. Which is kind of the point... Why watch that when you can go watch the NBA? If that's what you're looking for...
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But maybe some people would find it more entertaining. I don't know. The thing is, to me women's sports is about equity. Giving women a chance to pursue athletics, and then be able to use those athletics to pursue scholarships and maybe a pro career. So any time we are talking about women's sports, we need to look at it through the lens of what is the most equitable. I don't think the most important factors are entertainment or profitability, because women's leagues will probably never be as entertaining or profitable as men's leagues. This subject matters very much to me though, because I have a daughter and she might one day want to play sports. Or maybe she won't. Totally up to her. But I want her to have the option. So I have a vested interest when people are talking about the future of women's sports in this country.
 
Natebishop3 said:
But maybe some people would find it more entertaining. I don't know. The thing is, to me women's sports is about equity. Giving women a chance to pursue athletics, and then be able to use those athletics to pursue scholarships and maybe a pro career. So any time we are talking about women's sports, we need to look at it through the lens of what is the most equitable. I don't think the most important factors are entertainment or profitability, because women's leagues will probably never be as entertaining or profitable as men's leagues. This subject matters very much to me though, because I have a daughter and she might one day want to play sports. Or maybe she won't. Totally up to her. But I want her to have the option. So I have a vested interest when people are talking about the future of women's sports in this country.
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I think it's about making it the most competitive for women. That's why each sport should be able to choose.

I also have 3 daughters. They do like playing against boys. But when they compete in a given division they expect the competition to meet the spirit of the rule. When they are at a school tournament they expect to compete against school teams rather than club teams. When they compete against girls, they expect to compete against natural girls, their age.

As does every woman competitor or coach I've spoken with.

I think they should be able to make that choice.
 
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crandc said:
Trans women are women. Trans men are men
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Until they decide they don't want to be seems to be the case. This dude that swims. Are you saying he is a woman or a transgender man? Because he was born a man. He is now saying he is a woman. Is he a trans Man or a trans Woman?
Now if you say he is a trans MAN then he has no place swimming with women. If you are saying he is a trans WOMAN then what do we say about what he was actually born as? Did all that just disappear? Because he was definitely born a man.

Lets go one step further. How about the lady who came in second place in that race? Is she a woman? Because she definitely is not a man? I'll bet she feels a bit betrayed at this point by all the women out there praising this dude that is now a woman and is beating other women in races. This situation is wrong and even the most fervent supporters or LBGT rights are seeing it.
 
Fairly-Hard said:
Until they decide they don't want to be seems to be the case. This dude that swims. Are you saying he is a woman or a transgender man? Because he was born a man. He is now saying he is a woman. Is he a trans Man or a trans Woman?
Now if you say he is a trans MAN then he has no place swimming with women. If you are saying he is a trans WOMAN then what do we say about what he was actually born as? Did all that just disappear? Because he was definitely born a man.

Lets go one step further. How about the lady who came in second place in that race? Is she a woman? Because she definitely is not a man? I'll bet she feels a bit betrayed at this point by all the women out there praising this dude that is now a woman and is beating other women in races. This situation is wrong and even the most fervent supporters or LBGT rights are seeing it.
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To me if it didnt make a difference you would have Trans men competing against men more. Im not sure that the case though. Maybe each sport should decide what they view is right and fair?
 
Fairly-Hard said:
Until they decide they don't want to be seems to be the case. This dude that swims. Are you saying he is a woman or a transgender man? Because he was born a man. He is now saying he is a woman. Is he a trans Man or a trans Woman?
Now if you say he is a trans MAN then he has no place swimming with women. If you are saying he is a trans WOMAN then what do we say about what he was actually born as? Did all that just disappear? Because he was definitely born a man.

Lets go one step further. How about the lady who came in second place in that race? Is she a woman? Because she definitely is not a man? I'll bet she feels a bit betrayed at this point by all the women out there praising this dude that is now a woman and is beating other women in races. This situation is wrong and even the most fervent supporters or LBGT rights are seeing it.
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Oh dude I fear for you. You’re gonna catch some heat.
 
I’m pretty consistent in my stance on most societal issues and obv lean left if you’ve been in here long enough you know this. Im open to learning more about this but this is one area that makes no sense to me. This swimmer. To go from average to dominating is just proof how unfair this is to the women who have competed their whole lives to lose to a swimmer who is clearly at an unfair advantage. I don’t think physical male to female people should be competing ever against women.
 
The swimmer in question is a transgender woman.

Funny. Well, not funny. Straight cis men proclaiming themselves, at great length, experts on a subject they know nothing about.
 
calvin natt said:
I’m pretty consistent in my stance on most societal issues and obv lean left if you’ve been in here long enough you know this. Im open to learning more about this but this is one area that makes no sense to me. This swimmer. To go from average to dominating is just proof how unfair this is to the women who have competed their whole lives to lose to a swimmer who is clearly at an unfair advantage. I don’t think physical male to female people should be competing ever against women.
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But women did beat her. I posted the links. Not in every event but she did lose. I believe she won a championship in one event and lost 3 others. That seems like normal competition to me.
 
Just so we're all on the same page here. How much of this changes with gender reassignment?

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SlyPokerDog said:
But women did beat her. I posted the links. Not in every event but she did lose. I believe she won a championship in one event and lost 3 others. That seems like normal competition to me.
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She is literally shattering records. Martina Navratilova I think knows better than anyone in here as a dominant female athlete, and she says at minimum there should be an asterisk next to her name. But god forbid some of us males say the same thing.
 
calvin natt said:
What’s even more annoying and frustrating is making it seem like the only upset people are men. Plenty of women don’t like this or think it’s fair (because it isn’t).
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Exactly. Most of the people I've personally heard complain about it are women athletes and coaches.

I'm not really complaining about it so much as just sharing ideas and giving one suggestion on how to handle it.
 
calvin natt said:
She is literally shattering records.
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Records in sports are broken every year. Some are even shattered.

calvin natt said:
Martina Navratilova I think knows better than anyone in here as a dominant female athlete, and she says at minimum there should be an asterisk next to her name.
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She was a great athlete. But she is a person with an opinion. I can think of other female athletes that were dominant in their sports. Should we poll all of them for their opinion? Does their opinion change anything?

calvin natt said:
But god forbid some of us males say the same thing.
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There is nothing wrong with you expressing your opinions on this. It's how we learn and grow. There is nothing wrong if your opinion on this never changes.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
Records in sports are broken every year. Some are even shattered.



She was a great athlete. But she is a person with an opinion. I can think of other female athletes that were dominant in their sports. Should we poll all of them for their opinion? Does their opinion change anything?



There is nothing wrong with you expressing your opinions on this. It's how we learn and grow. There is nothing wrong if your opinion on this never changes.
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This sure feels verrrrrry PC of you. Navratilova’s opinion DOES carry more weight. And I would love - love — a poll of women in sports to see how happy they are with this situation. Because if it was in their sport I’m sure they’d be thrilled. And records get broken but not usually by someone who in a year goes from average to dominant. Reminds me of MLB steroid era. “Wow this guy has 52 home runs!”
 
crandc said:
The swimmer in question is a transgender woman.

Funny. Well, not funny. Straight cis men proclaiming themselves, at great length, experts on a subject they know nothing about.
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Who claimed to be an expert in here?

You know what I like to do before I share my opinion on things, I like to first state that I'm a straight cis man (just so everyone is aware that my opinion should carry more weight), and then I like to declare that I'm an expert on whatever topic I'm speaking about. I mean, obviously I'm an expert because I'm a straight cis man!

Shit I forgot to mention I’m white! I’m a straight white cis man! So my opinion clearly has the trifecta of expertness!
 
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calvin natt said:
This sure feels verrrrrry PC of you. Navratilova’s opinion DOES carry more weight. And I would love - love — a poll of women in sports to see how happy they are with this situation. Because if it was in their sport I’m sure they’d be thrilled. And records get broken but not usually by someone who in a year goes from average to dominant. Reminds me of MLB steroid era. “Wow this guy has 52 home runs!”
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I think the MLB example is very different. That example means Lia Thomas changed genders to cheat at sports. There is absolutely no evidence of that. Also, the steroid era in baseball was not limited to one player. Multiple players were cheating.

We're talking about one athlete in one event of one sport. I'm not seeing this, for right now, as something that needs big rule changes or reinventing all of college sports.

Is this really a problem?

Is this really a problem if she took last place in every event she swam in? No one would care. We wouldn't be having a discussion at all.

She won a championship in one event and lost in 3 others. A former Olympic swimmer won two of those other events. Isn't more unfair that a former Olympic athlete won in a college competition?
 
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