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Looks like I can count on your vote. That's one!! The grass roots movement has begun!
Exclusive I'm just going to put this out there, add your message
- Thread starter MARIS61
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Be a part of something great, join today!
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Trips to Mar a Lago are way cheaper than him sitting around figuring out how to tax more and spend more. Did I say "way" cheaper? I mean WAAAAAAAAY cheaper.
He should take congress with him.
Obama didn't take anywhere near enough time off. The damage he caused will be felt for a generation.
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The guy I voted for.
http://reason.com/reasontv/2018/03/07/gary-johnson-after-election-and-aleppo
Gary Johnson: 'I Always Thought Telling the Truth Would Rule the Day. And It Doesn't.'
The 2016 Libertarian presidential candidate on "Aleppo," Donald Trump's unexpected good points, and why Hillary Clinton's trolls were worse than Russian ones.
Johnson also weighs in of the presidency of Donald Trump, whom he said was appealing to racist sentiments during the 2016 campaign. Trump's tone, says the former governor, remains absolutely awful, but some of his policies, such as those regarding regulation and corporate taxes, are worth celebrating. When asked whether Hillary Clinton would have been a better president than Trump, Johnson says, "I think we would have kind of a myriad of other issues with Hillary that would probably be equally as bad.... I think it would be horrible if Hillary would have been president, but I think Trump's got his horrible also."
http://reason.com/reasontv/2018/03/07/gary-johnson-after-election-and-aleppo
Gary Johnson: 'I Always Thought Telling the Truth Would Rule the Day. And It Doesn't.'
The 2016 Libertarian presidential candidate on "Aleppo," Donald Trump's unexpected good points, and why Hillary Clinton's trolls were worse than Russian ones.
Johnson also weighs in of the presidency of Donald Trump, whom he said was appealing to racist sentiments during the 2016 campaign. Trump's tone, says the former governor, remains absolutely awful, but some of his policies, such as those regarding regulation and corporate taxes, are worth celebrating. When asked whether Hillary Clinton would have been a better president than Trump, Johnson says, "I think we would have kind of a myriad of other issues with Hillary that would probably be equally as bad.... I think it would be horrible if Hillary would have been president, but I think Trump's got his horrible also."
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Not quite. You have grownups, and then you have a room full of crying babies (sore losers).
bodyman5000 and 1
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It is almost like we should have work visas to get people here to do those jobs legally. I'll write my congressman. Can't believe nobody ever thought of that.
dviss1
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The problem is you all are too busy hammering that poor schlub seeking a better life than the companies that are hiring them.
Would you sneak past armed guards if there wasn't a job here for you?
bodyman5000 and 1
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I want the employers arrested.
dviss1
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If that happens you begin to eliminate it from within. Then we don't have to waste money on bullshit walls when more than 50% of the undocumented come by plane....
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I don't want to keep anyone out or keep anyone in.
If you catch people committing real crimes, arrest them, put them on trial, and throw them in prison.
If you catch people committing real crimes, arrest them, put them on trial, and throw them in prison.
dviss1
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Ramos: 40% of undocumented immigrants come by air
Depending on which poll you believe, between 40 and 50 percent of Americans support building a wall or fence along the border with Mexico. Jorge Ramos, a news anchor on Univision and Fusion, makes no secret of his disdain for the idea.
A few days after attracting widespread notice after being thrown out of a Donald Trump press conference while asking a question on immigration policy (he was later allowed back in),Ramos accepted an invitation to appearon Fox News’ The O’Reilly Factor on Sept. 2, 2015. Host Bill O’Reilly’s first question pressed him on the issue of a border wall.
O’Reilly: "You don’t want a border wall. You don’t want that. Why not?"
Ramos: "It’s a completely absurd idea. Why would you want to build a 1,900-mile wall between Mexico and the United States if almost 40 percent of all immigrants come by plane and they overstay their visas?"
Ramos is far from the first person to deploy the statistic that 40 percent of unauthorized immigrants come into the country under a legal visa and then stay beyond its expiration date. Two Republican presidential candidates, Florida Sen. Marco Rubio and former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, have said the same thing. When we checked Rubio’s claim, we rated it Mostly True.
However, Ramos’ statement adds the wrinkle that these people typically arrive by plane to rebut the notion that a wall would stop unauthorized immigration.As it turns out, it's hard to prove how they travel.
Actually, 40 percent might be too low
The key research on "overstays" -- the working term for this group of unauthorized immigrants Ramos had in mind -- was undertakenin 1997 by the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service. The INS estimated that overstays accounted for 41 percent of the undocumented.
Here we’ll add a bit of complexity.Immigration researchers divide the undocumented into two groups -- overstays and "entries without inspection." The first group might have a student, temporary work or tourist visa. The second group never went through any review.
Robert Warren -- who helped with that work at the INS and now is a senior fellow at the Center for Migration Studies, a research group founded by Catholic missionaries -- told PunditFactthat not only does the balance between the two still hold, it has likely tilted toward the overstays.
"Since 2000, arrivals from Mexico, who are about 85-90 percent 'entries without inspection,' have plummeted, while overstays have increased, or stayed at about their historical levels," Warren said.
Warren said the shift likely stems from U.S. efforts that have made it harder to enter by land.
He sent us this graph from his latest research at the center.
Source: Center for Migration Studies
Analysts with two other organizations, the Pew Research Center and the Migration Policy Institute, largely back Warren’s overall estimates.
"It is likely that the 40 percent figure is still valid and, if anything, the share of unauthorized immigrants who are visa overstayers is probably higher than 40 percent," said Jeffrey Passel at Pew.
Marc Rosenblum at the Migration Policy Institute said his group uses a wider range for overstays of one-third to one-half. While he’s comfortable with that, he noted it ultimately goes back to data collected by Pew in 2006.
"It’s widely cited and generally accepted as accurate, but it should be taken with a grain of salt because the estimate is old and characterized by some uncertainty," he said.
Rosenblum said the Department of Homeland Security has developed a way to count overstays who arrive by air or sea, but so far, the department doesn’t seem to have settled on an approach for people who enter at a land port of entry, such as the southern border. We reached out to a couple of agencies within the department, but did not get any information.
Guesstimating the fliers
If the 40 percent stat is defensible, the point that all those people arrive by air is much less so. In fact, the limited data we have suggests that whatever fraction flies into the country, it is less than 40 percent.
When we asked Ramos for his source, he pointed us to a 2006 report by Pew. However, while that assessment provides the 40 percent figure, it gives no details on the fraction that arrived in an airplane.
All of the experts we asked said they could only provide a gut assessment on this question.
"I have no information" on the form of transportation used by overstayers at the time of their entry, Pew’s Passel said,"but I suspect that most of them do arrive by plane."
But Rosenblum noted that overstays represent about 16 percent of unauthorized Mexican immigrants, about 27 percent of unauthorized Central Americans, and about 91 percent of all other unauthorized immigrants. Using his group’s estimates of the unauthorized population, that translates into about a third of all overstays coming from Mexico and Central America, and about two-thirds coming from the rest of the world.
"Many, but not all, of the Mexican and Central American overstayers likely arrived legally by land," Rosenblum said. "Almost all of the other overstayers likely arrived by air."
So let’s assume that none of the Mexican and Central American arrivals came by air, but all of the other arrivals did fly in. Since two-thirds of the overstays come from places other than Mexico and Central America, that would mean that two-thirds of the overstay population (the 40 percent figure) came by air, or about 27 percent.
That’s not far from the result Warren got using a slightly different approach. He estimated that at least one-third of the undocumented population arrives by air.
Ramos acknowledged the lack of hard data behind his statement.
"The important fact is that around 40 percent came legally and then overstayed their visas," he said. "How they got here is another matter."
A final note: The rationale for building a wall between the United States and Mexico is strongly linked to the idea that illegal immigration is fundamentally a problem of a porous southern border. Ramos, Rubio and Bush use the 40 percent figure to highlight that a large portion of the problem lies elsewhere. However, Rosenblum noted that does not make the two groups equivalent.
"One difference between overstayers and those who enter unlawfully is that overstayers have been screened and found admissible at least once, while those who enter another way -- mostly by crossing the border, or passing illegally through a port of entry -- could include people who would be inadmissible, because they have committed serious crimes or are on a security watchlist," Rosenblum said. "This is a legitimate reason to be more focused on illegal entries than overstayers."
Our ruling
Ramos said that about 40 percent of undocumented immigrants fly into the country and overstay their visas. While there is some evidence that overstays represent about 40 percent of the unauthorized population, and perhaps more, the best estimates of those flying in -- which are admittedly a bit shaky -- could be as low as one-quarter or somewhat more than one-third. The statement is partially accurate but leaves out important details, so we rate it Half True.
Depending on which poll you believe, between 40 and 50 percent of Americans support building a wall or fence along the border with Mexico. Jorge Ramos, a news anchor on Univision and Fusion, makes no secret of his disdain for the idea.
A few days after attracting widespread notice after being thrown out of a Donald Trump press conference while asking a question on immigration policy (he was later allowed back in),Ramos accepted an invitation to appearon Fox News’ The O’Reilly Factor on Sept. 2, 2015. Host Bill O’Reilly’s first question pressed him on the issue of a border wall.
O’Reilly: "You don’t want a border wall. You don’t want that. Why not?"
Ramos: "It’s a completely absurd idea. Why would you want to build a 1,900-mile wall between Mexico and the United States if almost 40 percent of all immigrants come by plane and they overstay their visas?"
Ramos is far from the first person to deploy the statistic that 40 percent of unauthorized immigrants come into the country under a legal visa and then stay beyond its expiration date. Two Republican presidential candidates, Florida Sen. Marco Rubio and former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, have said the same thing. When we checked Rubio’s claim, we rated it Mostly True.
However, Ramos’ statement adds the wrinkle that these people typically arrive by plane to rebut the notion that a wall would stop unauthorized immigration.As it turns out, it's hard to prove how they travel.
Actually, 40 percent might be too low
The key research on "overstays" -- the working term for this group of unauthorized immigrants Ramos had in mind -- was undertakenin 1997 by the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service. The INS estimated that overstays accounted for 41 percent of the undocumented.
Here we’ll add a bit of complexity.Immigration researchers divide the undocumented into two groups -- overstays and "entries without inspection." The first group might have a student, temporary work or tourist visa. The second group never went through any review.
Robert Warren -- who helped with that work at the INS and now is a senior fellow at the Center for Migration Studies, a research group founded by Catholic missionaries -- told PunditFactthat not only does the balance between the two still hold, it has likely tilted toward the overstays.
"Since 2000, arrivals from Mexico, who are about 85-90 percent 'entries without inspection,' have plummeted, while overstays have increased, or stayed at about their historical levels," Warren said.
Warren said the shift likely stems from U.S. efforts that have made it harder to enter by land.
He sent us this graph from his latest research at the center.
Source: Center for Migration Studies
Analysts with two other organizations, the Pew Research Center and the Migration Policy Institute, largely back Warren’s overall estimates.
"It is likely that the 40 percent figure is still valid and, if anything, the share of unauthorized immigrants who are visa overstayers is probably higher than 40 percent," said Jeffrey Passel at Pew.
Marc Rosenblum at the Migration Policy Institute said his group uses a wider range for overstays of one-third to one-half. While he’s comfortable with that, he noted it ultimately goes back to data collected by Pew in 2006.
"It’s widely cited and generally accepted as accurate, but it should be taken with a grain of salt because the estimate is old and characterized by some uncertainty," he said.
Rosenblum said the Department of Homeland Security has developed a way to count overstays who arrive by air or sea, but so far, the department doesn’t seem to have settled on an approach for people who enter at a land port of entry, such as the southern border. We reached out to a couple of agencies within the department, but did not get any information.
Guesstimating the fliers
If the 40 percent stat is defensible, the point that all those people arrive by air is much less so. In fact, the limited data we have suggests that whatever fraction flies into the country, it is less than 40 percent.
When we asked Ramos for his source, he pointed us to a 2006 report by Pew. However, while that assessment provides the 40 percent figure, it gives no details on the fraction that arrived in an airplane.
All of the experts we asked said they could only provide a gut assessment on this question.
"I have no information" on the form of transportation used by overstayers at the time of their entry, Pew’s Passel said,"but I suspect that most of them do arrive by plane."
But Rosenblum noted that overstays represent about 16 percent of unauthorized Mexican immigrants, about 27 percent of unauthorized Central Americans, and about 91 percent of all other unauthorized immigrants. Using his group’s estimates of the unauthorized population, that translates into about a third of all overstays coming from Mexico and Central America, and about two-thirds coming from the rest of the world.
"Many, but not all, of the Mexican and Central American overstayers likely arrived legally by land," Rosenblum said. "Almost all of the other overstayers likely arrived by air."
So let’s assume that none of the Mexican and Central American arrivals came by air, but all of the other arrivals did fly in. Since two-thirds of the overstays come from places other than Mexico and Central America, that would mean that two-thirds of the overstay population (the 40 percent figure) came by air, or about 27 percent.
That’s not far from the result Warren got using a slightly different approach. He estimated that at least one-third of the undocumented population arrives by air.
Ramos acknowledged the lack of hard data behind his statement.
"The important fact is that around 40 percent came legally and then overstayed their visas," he said. "How they got here is another matter."
A final note: The rationale for building a wall between the United States and Mexico is strongly linked to the idea that illegal immigration is fundamentally a problem of a porous southern border. Ramos, Rubio and Bush use the 40 percent figure to highlight that a large portion of the problem lies elsewhere. However, Rosenblum noted that does not make the two groups equivalent.
"One difference between overstayers and those who enter unlawfully is that overstayers have been screened and found admissible at least once, while those who enter another way -- mostly by crossing the border, or passing illegally through a port of entry -- could include people who would be inadmissible, because they have committed serious crimes or are on a security watchlist," Rosenblum said. "This is a legitimate reason to be more focused on illegal entries than overstayers."
Our ruling
Ramos said that about 40 percent of undocumented immigrants fly into the country and overstay their visas. While there is some evidence that overstays represent about 40 percent of the unauthorized population, and perhaps more, the best estimates of those flying in -- which are admittedly a bit shaky -- could be as low as one-quarter or somewhat more than one-third. The statement is partially accurate but leaves out important details, so we rate it Half True.
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I'm with @bodyman5000 and 1 . By all means crack down on employers of illegals. They're not, by and large, doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. They're exploiting people in a bind, or not wanting (or able) to pay the prevailing wage, or paying under the table so taxes don't have to be reported. None of which is good.
With what little I know of the rules in place, it seems pretty easy to get a legal visa to get into the country to work. Now, if the bureaucracy/paperwork turnaround/poor decision-making of the adjudicators isn't up to speed, well, see my post about many gov't workers.
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So...can someone explain why Nate is still a moderator? That's first rate bullshit right there.
Also, I love how this whole thread basically confirms what HCP was saying. Well done fellas, we sure made ourselves proud.
Also, I love how this whole thread basically confirms what HCP was saying. Well done fellas, we sure made ourselves proud.
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Nate has never been a moderator.
bodyman5000 and 1
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Exactly. No jobs no reason to come here. No easily taken advantage of workers and then business would have to pay a fair wage to legal workers.
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weird, it showed his name in red when I clicked the link.
change my "a moderator" to "not being suspended" then.
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I assure you he's banned.
dviss1
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Those employers DON'T want that. They want to keep exploiting people who are simply huddled masses yearning to breathe free...
We should understand WHY they want to come to the land if opportunity and stop being as hard on them.
FIRM UP ON THE EXPLOITERS.
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Let them in, let them register for SS and pay payroll taxes, and let them report violations of employment law.
Nobody will be taken advantage of, unless they choose to allow it.
Nobody will be taken advantage of, unless they choose to allow it.
bodyman5000 and 1
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Your posts make me sad to be an American. Do you want me to point it out to you all the time? Suggest therapy? I can post self righteous drivel on command if that's what you prefer.
Would you care to read HCP'S accusations and then compare my answers and prove how accurate he was?
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I didn't know names turned red when they were banned/suspended. Thats what threw me off.
Good job on that one, whoever banned him. Don't need that kind of shit here.
Good job on that one, whoever banned him. Don't need that kind of shit here.
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You're so vain, you probably think my post was about you...you're so vaaaaaaaain....
bodyman5000 and 1
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Business gets it both ways. Pay them barely slave wages here and then import shit made in Mexico by people making next to nothing.
bodyman5000 and 1
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Your posts remind me of that song. Uhhh, the song was about him lady.
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Him lady? Why are we taking pot shots at HCP again?
bodyman5000 and 1
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Easy target.
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In case you didn't read my post in another thread.
We allow free discussion of a range of topics, especially in the OT forum, and have lax rules there. People get excited and agitated by topics like religion and politics (things you don't discuss at the dinner table).
We believe you cannot have an honest discussion about race if you don't allow people to express their views.
Nate went beyond any of that with a vicious and racist attack.
We have zero tolerance for that.
He's been banned, permanently.
We allow free discussion of a range of topics, especially in the OT forum, and have lax rules there. People get excited and agitated by topics like religion and politics (things you don't discuss at the dinner table).
We believe you cannot have an honest discussion about race if you don't allow people to express their views.
Nate went beyond any of that with a vicious and racist attack.
We have zero tolerance for that.
He's been banned, permanently.
bodyman5000 and 1
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I missed the ban. Knew it was coming anyway.
MarAzul
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dviss1
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bodyman5000 and 1
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I said fair? Same thing to me. If a job is worth doing for a certain number compared to other jobs when we all use legal labor, that's acceptable to me.
I don't for a second speak of a living wage. Sign spinning for example. Last I heard they make ok money for the job performed. If you can't buy a house as a sign spinner that isn't my problem.
