Isiah acquires Rose, Taylor and 2 1st round picks

[Ma3oxuct]

I am very surprised that San Antonio went through with the trade, because in my opinion the Spurs got robbed. Either that or they badly wanted to get rid of Rose. Good trade from the Knick's stand point; maybe we'll see Sweetney become the starting PF, K.Thomas is certainly the center now

.

 

[Vintage]

San Antonio didn't get robbed.

San Antonio is a small market team. Meaning they have limits to their own spending. Unloading Rose was huge. He had a long contract with quite a bit of money tied up. It means they can use the MLE this summer. It means that that Devin Brown will probably be back. Meanwhile, San Antonio is fielding a championship caliber team which will cost them around $45-46 million this season.

It also gives San Antonio some size upfront besides Duncan and Rasho. Mohammed is a solid big man, which will help down the stretch with resting Duncan and Rasho.

Meanwhile, Mohammed's contract is done after next year, while Rose would have went another for an additional 2 seasons, making Tony Parker's salary increase a virtual wash.

The 2 1st rounders? Phoenix and San Antonio will have two very, very low picks in the draft. I swear, some people think about the NBA in terms of managing a sim league. San Antonio gets to avoid the luxury tax and keep an average sized payroll and feilding a competitive team. Great for them. Two late firsts aren't that great.....

NBADraft.net has Phoenix and San Antonio with the last picks in the 1st round(I know that will change, but just for fun....)

Since 1995

1995: Greg Ostertag, Cory Alexander
1996: Priest Lauderdale, Travis Knight
1997:Jacque Vaughn, Keith Booth
1998: Corey Benjamin, Nazr Mohammed
1999: Scott Padgett, Leon Smith
2000: Erick Barkley, Mark Madsen
2001: Jamaal Tinsley, Tony Parker
2002: Chris Jeffries, Dan Dickau
2003: Leandrinho Barbosa, Josh Howard
2004: Beno Udrih, David Harrison

Outside of Howard, Tinsley, and Parker, nothing really special.

Udrih and Barbosa could be potentially something.
Mohammed is solid.

Out of 20, 3 are quality players. 2 more could develop. 1 solid player.


Ironically, its San Antonio that has 3 of those twenty.


At that point, you aren't really getting any great players, unless you luck out. San Antonio basically dumped Malik Rose and two more guaranteed contracts for Nazr Mohammed.

Where did San Antonio screw up?

 

[Knicks Analyst]

Excellent post, Vintage. Brilliant points. You don't seem confident that the Knicks would get anybody good in the last 2 picks, but look at Isiah's history. I know, not perfect but solid. Once more, that was a superb post.

 

[FFSBasketball]

Just a couple thoughts/questions:

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but according to HoopsHype.com, I believe Penny's and TT's contracts come off not this offseason, but next. That means you're still at $109 million this offseason.

Also, if the season ended today, Houston's pick would be #20, San Antonio's #30, Phoenix's #29. Those aren't exactly great picks, might as well get a second rounder from Atlanta or Charlotte. So I'm not sure I'd be so excited about those picks.

Lastly - I appreciate the tough situation the Knicks are in. On the one hand, you need to rebuild. On the other, in NYC, you can't put it on pause for 3 years while you wait for young talent to come along. So it's a problem. But at some point you need to bite the bullet and really commit to rebuilding. And it's something Isiah won't do. Now, if these trades are looked at as a rebuilding move, then he might as well go the full way and just start picking apart the team. But if not, then I don't see any point to them.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Beat]

What about the players that come out of the second round year after year. We could just as easily get them near the end of the first.

 

[Platehpus]

I doubt we'll even get that draft pick we traded to Phoenix--We don't get it if they finish in the top 3.

 

[Trip]

The Knicks only get one first round pick from San Antonio, and ESPN wrongly reported that Houston gave up a first. They only gave up a second.

The Knicks didn't do good in both trades. Not only did they give up their one and only center, they got two dead contracts in return. Taylor has no defensive game whatsoever, and from being a Rockets fan, I'd like to tell you Knicks fans that his stats are very deceiving. On a team with Marbury and Crawford dominating the ball, Taylor would be lucky to get 20 minutes per game and 6 shots. Not worth the $7 mil that the Knicks will be paying him for the next four years. Rose is a good player, sure, but the Knicks could've gotten much more for Nazr (I don't like how you guys call him Nazi). The pick would not essentially turn out to be a steal, although Thomas might have a good record with draft picks. Rose has another big contract, and at 6-7, is pretty undersized at the four. Thomas playing the five could work, but with Chris Webber, Antoine Walker and Bosh all playing in the same division, New York could have problems making the playoffs still.

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Banks:</div><div class="quote_post">Um ever thought I was a fan of the player?

. I can't see any reason for Sweetney to hang around with them if he doesn't get the PT. Sharing the time with Mo, Kurt and Malik and even JYD won't help his development. Even if he does play, a problem for the Knicks will be that one of them will likely not play.</div>
Um, no. Never thought so because of what you say about some Knicks

. Adding these players will add some depth to the Knicks. Malik can play the 3 or the 4, who provides energy and experience off the bench. Taylor gives us some more size and can is very talented on the offensive end. He can shoot the midrange jumper very effectively and putting him, with TT, and Kurt Thomas on the floor can create absolute havoc on the shooting. That just opens it up for Marbury's penetration. Sweetney will get some minutes and adding more depth to his position will not completely kill his development like many of you suggest. Also, you don't know what's up Isiah's sleeves. Kurt Thomas is likely gone next season as well.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Ultimately this thing is about the picks. They could use the two picks in future trades to acquire other players, or use them themselves. They need to identify their core first, and identify the role players. Who knows whats going to go on with the picks? They're going to be low picks, and if the players are with the Knicks, other players will be unhappy due to the lack of PT, or the picks (the players chosen) will be on the bench. Just wait to see how these trades pan out. </div>
The picks were huge. The Knicks can possibly package all of them and get a top 5 pick. I think someone would bite on that. Anyway, Isiah is a good drafter and there have been many succesful players that come from that round. Maybe not potential superstars will be that low this year, but they could develop into solid role players for the team. We will have to see how the trades pan out. There have been many "what are you smoking" kind of deals that end up surprisingly good for the team. So, we'll have to see how they turn out.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Isiah really hasn't done anything with low picks asides from the drafting of Ariza, which is a big pick, but he hasn't shown much skill draftin with low picks due to his lack of history. </div>
Well, what's stopping him from drafting another Ariza, or possibly using them to get a higher draft position? At the very least, he could draft a good role player for the Knicks. Any pick is good and especially with Isiah Thomas drafting.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You're not really make a lot sense by saying that I'm acting like your gong to "clean up" anytime soon, and then you go on by saying that 25 million comes off the books after next year like it matters

. The 25 million coming off the books next season doesn't even matter since Isiah will just be piling up more salaries in the offseason and during the season.</div>
We weren't cleaning up cap very soon. Teams go crazy over salary cap...(see Baron Davis to Warriors) and with 25 million dollars coming off I'm sure many teams would take that and at the very least, some cap is coming off for us, one step at a time.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm saying that I'm Glad the Raps aren't the Knicks because of the logjams at posistions and horrible cap situations.</div>
I'm saying I'm glad that the Knicks aren't the Raptors because NY is a better place than Toronto IMO.

 

[Trip]

Mrj- you're the most sarcastic guy I know, take that however you want to.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He can shoot the midrange jumper very effectively and putting him, with TT, and Kurt Thomas on the floor can create absolute havoc on the shooting. That just opens it up for Marbury's penetration.</div>Doing that will also kill your chances on defensive rebounding. Nobody except K Thomas rebounds.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
The picks were huge. The Knicks can possibly package all of them and get a top 5 pick. I think someone would bite on that. </div>Umm, no. I don't think the last pick in the first round and a second rounder would be worth a top 5 pick, unless you throw in your own, which might just be a top 5 pick anyways.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">There have been many "what are you smoking" kind of deals that end up surprisingly good for the team. So, we'll have to see how they turn out.</div>Yeah, but most of them never end up helping the team.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
Well, what's stopping him from drafting another Ariza, or possibly using them to get a higher draft position? At the very least, he could draft a good role player for the Knicks. Any pick is good and especially with Isiah Thomas drafting.
</div>Not so sure, but what other picks has Thomas made besides McGrady and Ariza?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
I'm saying I'm glad that the Knicks aren't the Raptors because NY is a better place than Toronto IMO.</div>Huh? I think he didn't mean it geographically?

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trip:</div><div class="quote_post">The Knicks only get one first round pick from San Antonio, and ESPN wrongly reported that Houston gave up a first. They only gave up a second.</div>
Another wrong report?? What's up with them these past few days?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The Knicks didn't do good in both trades. Not only did they give up their one and only center, they got two dead contracts in return. Taylor has no defensive game whatsoever, and from being a Rockets fan, I'd like to tell you Knicks fans that his stats are very deceiving. On a team with Marbury and Crawford dominating the ball, Taylor would be lucky to get 20 minutes per game and 6 shots. Not worth the $7 mil that the Knicks will be paying him for the next four years. Rose is a good player, sure, but the Knicks could've gotten much more for Nazr (I don't like how you guys call him Nazi). The pick would not essentially turn out to be a steal, although Thomas might have a good record with draft picks. Rose has another big contract, and at 6-7, is pretty undersized at the four. Thomas playing the five could work, but with Chris Webber, Antoine Walker and Bosh all playing in the same division, New York could have problems making the playoffs still.</div>
Well the picks are still big for us nevertheless. We get 4 I beleive and packaging a potential lottery pick (maybe 7th) along with two late 1st rounders, and a decently high second round pick, can get us in pretty good draft position. I think with Taylor shifting over, his mere presnce will stretch the floor. Him and Kurt will be big threats with a penetrator like Mabury around. I didn't see how much different his stats would be from Houston. He had McGrady and Yao dominating the ball a lot as well so I don't see a huge differnce. Rose and Taylor are better than Nazi, the only thing that wasn't so good is their contracts. That's it. Rose is a hard worker and at 6'7 he is a bit undersized, but effectiveness is what matters. He can also play the 3, and provides great energy off the bench. These days it seems as if only JYD provides that. Also, it may look bad now, but until we see its true results, than we can comment on whether it was a good trade or not. I think Isiah Thomas has something big up his sleeves and although it might seem dumb or whatever, those kinds of trades sometimes prove to be the most successful. Let's wait and wee how this one plays out.

 

[Knicks Analyst]

Can I get a source on that mis-report, Trip? Thanks.

Oh, and it looks like the SA pick will be in 2006. Not quite what we were looking for, never know though.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1998814

 

[Platehpus]

It's everywhere, KA. We got two first round picks, in 2005 and 2006 or something.

 

[Trip]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post">Can I get a source on that mis-report, Trip? Thanks.

Oh, and it looks like the SA pick will be in 2006. Not quite what we were looking for, never know though.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1998814</div>
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The Rockets also acquired forward Vin Baker, guard Martyn ?Moochie? Norris and a future second-round draft pick from the New York Knicks in exchange for forward Maurice Taylor.</div>

Link

There ya go. It's from the Rockets official site which would be more legit than ESPN.

EDIT: Weird, actually the Knicks give up a second, the Rockets just trade Taylor. I never noticed that before, and it seems like no one else in my forum did. Things get confusing at times with different versions of the same trade flying around.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Also, it may look bad now, but until we see its true results, than we can comment on whether it was a good trade or not. I think Isiah Thomas has something big up his sleeves and although it might seem dumb or whatever, those kinds of trades sometimes prove to be the most successful. Let's wait and wee how this one plays out.</div>If we all waited two years later then posted our thoughts on the trade, this thread would have 3 replies right now. How is it that no one ever rebukes a statement that a trade would help the team? What's wrong with a negative aspect on things at times?

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trip:</div><div class="quote_post">Mrj- you're the most sarcastic guy I know, take that however you want to.</div>
Trip- you're the weirdest poster I know, take that however you want.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Doing that will also kill your chances on defensive rebounding. Nobody except K Thomas rebounds.</div>
Sweetney can rebound too. Also, I think Taylor plus Malik can make up for Nazr's 8 a game.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Umm, no. I don't think the last pick in the first round and a second rounder would be worth a top 5 pick, unless you throw in your own, which might just be a top 5 pick anyways.</div>
Well, I don't know about a top 5. Who knows it might be, which is exactly why we might be able to advance farther up in the draft.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Yeah, but most of them never end up helping the team.</div>
Well, you don't know especially since this is the first day of the trade.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Not so sure, but what other picks has Thomas made besides McGrady and Ariza?</div>
He got the rookie of the year Damon Stoudemire, and Marcus Camby.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Huh? I think he didn't mean it geographically?</div>
I know he didn't. I'm stating why I'm glad the Knicks aren't the Raptors.

 

[Beat]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trip:</div><div class="quote_post">
How is it that no one ever rebukes a statement that a trade would help the team? What's wrong with a negative aspect on things at times?</div>

We are blinded by ignorance and only want to so what positives my come out of the deal. That way if something does happen we could say "I knew it! I knew it was a blessing in disguise!" and if it doesnt we could say "I knew it! I was just waiting to see how bad it would end up"

 

[Knicks Analyst]

Trip, it's conflicting reports. The official news is still yet to be printed.

And I think you said that we're going to be missing out on defensive rebounding?
Haha. I hope that was a joke.

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If we all waited two years later then posted our thoughts on the trade, this thread would have 3 replies right now. How is it that no one ever rebukes a statement that a trade would help the team? What's wrong with a negative aspect on things at times?</div>
Nothings wrong with a negative aspect. No one knows how the trade will turn out which is the point I'm trying to make. While this trade might look horrible to some (those who don't like/follow the Knicks) think it is a pretty good trade. Either way this thread is based on assumptions and possible scenarios for the future. I don't see why it would have only 3 replies.

 

[Platehpus]

So yeah, now that it's pretty much official that the Knicks gave away their second round pick to aquire Mo Taylor, Isiah has lost it. What a <strike>****ing</strike> moron. I could run a better team using the crazy Isiah Thomas Moon Logic™, he can't even <strike>****</strike> a franchise up correctly. Good god.

<font color="Red">No cursing. That's your warning. Sorry, man. JBB Guidelines.
-Knicks Analyst.</font>

 

[Tribute to H2O]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Platehpus:</div><div class="quote_post">So yeah, now that it's pretty much official that the Knicks gave away their second round pick to aquire Mo Taylor, Isiah has lost it. What a <strike>****ing</strike> moron. I could run a better team using the crazy Isiah Thomas Moon Logic™, he can't even <strike>****</strike> a franchise up correctly. Good god.</div>

Well you're right or at least partially right. The Rockets I think have given up their second round pick for the following draft so we didnt really give up anything although there was a player or two that I liked in the second round of this upcoming draft. But you pretty much hit it right on the head when you called him a moron and how you could do a much better job. Right on the money. I am not pleased at all. We took that fat contract off their hands and didnt get anything for it. What is Isiah thinking??? He's messing everything up! I just cant believe what a lousy job he's doing!

He must be stopped...

By the way can someone please tell me the exact situation? How many draft picks do we have this year and next?

 

[Mr. J]

Alright, one 1st rounder from S.A. via Phoenix. One 2nd rounder from Houston, and 1 forst rounder from the Spurs next year. Too bad we don't get Houston's 1st rounder

 

[Vintage]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">Alright, one 1st rounder from S.A. via Phoenix. One 2nd rounder from Houston, and 1 forst rounder from the Spurs next year. Too bad we don't get Houston's 1st rounder

</div>


No.....You don't have Houston's 2nd round pick.

They have yours.

You have your 1st and Phoenix's 1st this year.
Yours and San Antonio's Next year.

 

[Mr. J]

So we have 2 1st rounders??

Didn't know that, Thanks for the clear up Vintage

 

[jbbCourtVision]

Holy smokes....The Knicks gave up Baker, Norris AND a second rounder for Taylor?? Isiah must see something in him that the Rockets don't. From what I saw: He is a scoring power foward who can't play defence or rebound the ball. Scoring is not a problem with this guy but the rest of the things you expect a power foward to do....he doesn't do it.

I really don't understand the creation of the logjam at the PF position. Why did he trade for Taylor in the first place? And then make a trade for Rose afterwards? Or maybe it was the other way around. Whatever it is I don't like it. Instead of freeing up time for Sweetney to develope he pretty much added two players that play the exact same position as he does.

For what? Two selections in the 1st round with the last pick of the draft. And they aren't even in the same year. Where does this leave the Knicks? I know that Isiah is a very talented drafter but he's really creating a tough challenge, even for himself.

Everyone says that we have to wait awhile to see how the trade pans out but being logical I just don't see how this benefits the Knicks in any way. Even in the long term with those picks. Sure they can package it but getting a 29th pick in the draft is basically like getting a second round selection. No team will really bite at it unless it gives them an advantage in the long run. I think Isiah's picks have to pan out or else he will have no trade bait come next season.

 

[notmuchgame]

My question to Isiah is "How many undersized PF's do you want??'

 

[mike18946]

You add 32 million of salaries and yet the Knicks hardly improve. Yes talent wise they add a few talented forwards but they both have huge contracts. Unless these kind of moves are going to suddenly change your team around It is pointless. All Isiah has done has make the Knicks cap situation alot worse than It already was.

Malik will give you energy, offensive rebounding and a guy who knock down the 15-18 foot jumper. He isn't going to make you a playoff team. Neither is Taylor. This was easily the worse trade of the season. Not only does it make the cap worse for NY but It makes the Spurs even better. Why on earth you would make the championship favourites even better is beyond me. The rest of the NBA can't be happy

I will always love Isiah as the player but as a GM he truely stinks.

 

[Knicks Analyst]

Vintage, are you sure about us having our own pick next year? I think that it was included in the Phoenix deal. I'm pretty sure too. Any source? I'd appreciate it.

Let me just say this, if that report about Taylor is accurate, and Isiah didn't get a first rounder in return. And he did give a 2nd rounder, then let me just say that I'm disgusted with the trade. As C.V. said, he can't rebound, his perimeter defense is flat-out awful, and all he can do is score. Not to mention the fact that he's injured. Trading a good bunch of expiring contracts which would've been quite valuable next year at the deadline and a 2nd rounder to get some "bum" out of Houston? Why, Isiah?

By the way AllNet, some sources are saying that there was some clause in some trade that the Knicks made which allowed them to espace the 32 million dollar obligations and only gave them 16 million. Not sure though, some stupid source who works around the league that called me, not 100% reliable though, let me put it that way.

 

[mike18946]

I will try and look into that, I do know though that the Spurs will be paying Malik 3 million worth of his salary. Because of a clause in his contract which he signed in 2002.

 

[jbbCourtVision]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post">By the way AllNet, some sources are saying that there was some clause in some trade that the Knicks made which allowed them to espace the 32 million dollar obligations and only gave them 16 million. Not sure though, some stupid source who works around the league that called me, not 100% reliable though, let me put it that way.

</div>I heard that it is only a 10% kicker that San Antonio has to pay New York in the next 36 hours. I heard the amount is about 3.2 million only.

 

[Mr. J]

My original thoughts of the trade was that we traded Nazr, Baker, Brewer, and Moochie for two 1st rounder from San Antonio, and one 1st rounder from Houston and Malik and Rose. At 1st glance this might look like a silly trade, but do you think it's silly enough to work? By that I mean is it possible that Isiah Thomas has something he's trying to pull off in the offseason? First off, Taylor and Houston expire at the same time, and even though it might appear so obviously silly, Isiah Thomas must have somthing up his sleeves. This season is closing out and I don't think people realize it isn't the begining which means the offseason is a couple of months away. Some of the power forwards are bound to be gone as well. Kurt Thomas probably will be out of here very soon, and who knows if Isiah has any intentions of packaging someone and shipping them somewhere else? Also those picks guys. I don't think people realize Isiah Thomas and the draft. Isiah Thomas is known for having good drafting skills and there are tons of players he can get. He can package all of the picks and get a higher one, or he can simply use all of them to draft some good players. Korver, Ariza, Michael Redd, Ginobili, Parker, Udrih, Josh Howard, Tayshaun Prince, and tons of great players have been drafted there. You don't necessarily have to draft a potential star, but a good role player can be drafted from there. Though it might seem silly, however it might turn out to be a good move.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post">I heard that it is only a 10% kicker that San Antonio has to pay New York in the next 36 hours. I heard the amount is about 3.2 million only.</div>
I heard the same thing KA was talking about. It was on the radio so I can't give you a real source other than my word.

 

[Nasty]

It's kinda refreshing as a Raptor fan to find out that Rob Babcock ain't the dumpest GM in the league afterall.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post">It is true. A great trade, or at least it is potentially. We have to hope Isiah doesn't pull any junk and can possibly trade up using these picks and light contracts to move up to the 1st or 2nd pick. Or, he could trade the SA and HOU picks (one may have been through Phoenix) to get a mid 1st round pick. And Isiah is one helluva drafter (T-Mac and Ariza for examples).
</div>

No, it wasn't Isiah who decided to draft T-Mac. I mean yeah he made the final call, but he didn't see T-Mac play, yet he drafted him according to the report from his head scout at that time, Craig Neal, who used to be a Raptor assisstant as well and now works in the front office.

Craig was very very high on Tracy. He watched most of his HS games that season, and kept pressuring Isiah to make the pick.
Isiah wanted to draft Adonal Foyle, and because of Neal's and Grunwald's pressure, and the fact that they were the only 2 "Basketball People" in the front office at that time, he set McGrady as his second option, after Foyle.

Draft night rolls around, and Foyle gets selected by the Warriors at 8, one pick before the Raptors. Having seeing Tracy's stats and the fact that Craig Neal told the management that McGrady will turn out to be a "Scottie Pippen" type player -which drew a lot of critisim towards Neal and Isiah in Tracy's first 2 year- made Isiah select him at 9.
So, most of the work done on McGrady was by Neal and Grunwald, Isiah just listened to them.

Also, in the 1996 draft, he selected Camby over Marbury, Ray Allen, Antoine Walker, Kobe Bryant, Peja Stojakovic, Steve Nash, Zydrunas Illgauskas, and Jermaine O'Neal.

So no, Isiah isn't a good drafter.