Jimmy Butler wants out? (He does.)

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This is the trade I want to see go down.

CJ -> Butler
Meyers -> Dieng

I've been a fan of this one for a long while now.
Butler is almost certainly a better all-around player than CJ, BUT he's been acting more and more jerky (basically forced a trade from his last two teams) and would almost certainly not stay after a year. And CJ is certainly more fun to watch.
 
Butler is almost certainly a better all-around player than CJ, BUT he's been acting more and more jerky (basically forced a trade from his last two teams) and would almost certainly not stay after a year. And CJ is certainly more fun to watch.
I don't agree with either of those two statements.
 
Butler is better than CJ. But I cant imagine any way whatsoever he stays in Portland. Chicago...Minnesota...there is a trend. Dude wants the bright lights, why else choose NJ, NY and the Clips? Its literally the last type of person who wants to be here - forcing way out of cities, unhappy, choosing three teams who suck, in only huge markets. Its the anti-Blazer mentality and character.
 
A trade that makes sense for both sides is:
Caldwell-Pope + Lonzo Ball + Josh Hart for Butler
BECAUSE: all three of the Lakers are good defenders, a real need for Minny. Hart and KCP are also Thibs players. And the Lakers might be ready to move on from the Ball circus, while a move to Minny might do him good (especially if his Dad doesn't follow.)

Meanwhile, even if Butler doesn't stay with the Lakers at the end of the year, they're one of the few teams where the cap space he'll leave will almost be as valuable as him.

HOWEVER: KCP is the problem: he can't be traded at all for a while, and even when he's tradeable, I believe he has a no-trade clause because he has a one year deal.
Pretty sure a one-year deal only gets you a no-trade clause if it was signing your qualifying offer at the end of your rookie deal. Standard one-year deals have no such protection.
 
Yes, AD would still be AD, but if we had Butler, no way does Jrue Holiday go off for 33 in Game 2 and 41 in Game 4. His previous career playoff high was 26 and he AVERAGED 27.8 ppg against us. Put Butler on him and Holiday is likely much closer to his season average of 19.o ppg, maybe less since Bulter is one of the top perimeter defenders in the league.

Plus, as mentioned with Butler attacking the rim. Davis would not have been able to double team Dame out on the perimeter with abandon. That would have freed Dame to be Dame.

So yeah, NOP would have still had the best player on the court, but we would have had the 2nd and 3rd best. As it was, NOP had the 1st and 2nd best and that's why they swept us.

It wasn't that C.J, played poorly. He didn't. The biggest problem is we didn't have anyone who could make NOP pay for doubling Dame with Davis 25 feet from the basket on almost every possession - that and our inability to stop Holiday on the other end. Davis is a superstar, He's going to get his no matter what. The problem is our superstar didn't look like a superstar with the constant double teams from Davis and Holiday, while our defense allowed Holiday to look like a superstar on the other end.

BNM

Stotts was out coached by Gentry.
That was the biggest problem.
Most coaches will attempt to make it more difficult on the other teams best player.
Stotts didn't do this, he put a gameplan out that played to AD's strength in hopes AD would be too tired in the 4th.

Watching that series, it felt like anytime Lillard was put in space he scored.
It's when that pick and roll came, which allowed two defenders to go to the ball. Is when Lillard struggled.

Yes all of what you mentioned can help, but at the end of the day Stotts didn't make it easier on Lillard to play basketball.
That's his job as a coach.
Instead forced his superstar to play sideline to sideline out of a double team all series long.

I don't believe for a second that with as gifted as a scorer CJ is.
That if he was put in a position to release pressure with a cut.
That he wouldn't have been able to score at the rim.

At the end of the day, our gameplan was ass. Stotts got paid millions to come up with a gameplan that a 5th grader could come up with.
Everybody stand around, watch Lillard get doubled out of a P&R and hope the three goes in if you get the ball.
 
Olshey would probably call Minnesota and say that we want Butler but Dame, CJ, Nurkic and Collins are unavailable on our side and we are reluctant to deal Harkless or Simons either... and that we would prefer not to trade picks either.
 
Olshey would probably call Minnesota and say that we want Butler but Dame, CJ, Nurkic and Collins are unavailable on our side and we are reluctant to deal Harkless or Simons either... and that we would prefer not to trade picks either.
So he’d call and say can we have him for free??? lol
 
Olshey would probably call Minnesota and say that we want Butler but Dame, CJ, Nurkic and Collins are unavailable on our side and we are reluctant to deal Harkless or Simons either... and that we would prefer not to trade picks either.
Why is Harkless so untouchable? Especially for an all star wing. Don't make sense to me.
 
Why is Harkless so untouchable? Especially for an all star wing. Don't make sense to me.

Actually, Mercurial Moe is probably the one player on our roster who would frustrate Butler the most. So, I'd have no problem including him in a package that landed us Butler.

In fact, given our shortage of bodies up front, I'd much rather keep Aminu than Harkless, but I think MIN would prefer Aminu for a couple reasons. He's more of a Thibs kind of guy, especially with his record of stepping up in the post season. He's cheaper and he's an expiring contract. He'd give them much more flexibility both on the court and in managing their roster down the road (i.e. if he's a great fit, resign him using his Bird Rights. If not, let him walk and shave $7 million off your payroll).

BNM
 
Why is Harkless so untouchable? Especially for an all star wing. Don't make sense to me.
No clue. I'd swap him (and other assets) for Butler in a heartbeat. I'd take Butler in place of CJ as well. Only place I'd hesitate is on CJ and Harkless together, because I'd like to pair at least one of them with Butler.
 
Why is Harkless so untouchable? Especially for an all star wing. Don't make sense to me.

Who said he’s untouchable?

I don’t think Olshey is really attached to anyone outside of Dame and CJ(maybe Zach) and the more people think those two should be broken up, the more Neil’s ego takes over. Neil is sinking or swimming with that pairing.
 
Who said he’s untouchable?

I don’t think Olshey is really attached to anyone outside of Dame and CJ, and the more people think those two should be broken up, the more Neil’s ego takes over. Neil is sinking or swimming with that pairing.

We're going to need a bigger boat.
 
Stotts was out coached by Gentry.
That was the biggest problem.
Most coaches will attempt to make it more difficult on the other teams best player.
Stotts didn't do this, he put a gameplan out that played to AD's strength in hopes AD would be too tired in the 4th.

Watching that series, it felt like anytime Lillard was put in space he scored.
It's when that pick and roll came, which allowed two defenders to go to the ball. Is when Lillard struggled.

Yes all of what you mentioned can help, but at the end of the day Stotts didn't make it easier on Lillard to play basketball.
That's his job as a coach.
Instead forced his superstar to play sideline to sideline out of a double team all series long.

I don't believe for a second that with as gifted as a scorer CJ is.
That if he was put in a position to release pressure with a cut.
That he wouldn't have been able to score at the rim.

At the end of the day, our gameplan was ass. Stotts got paid millions to come up with a gameplan that a 5th grader could come up with.
Everybody stand around, watch Lillard get doubled out of a P&R and hope the three goes in if you get the ball.

Yes, the lack of adjustments was frustrating - it reminded me very much of Nate getting outcoached by Gentry back in the POR vs. PHO series when Gentry put Grant Hill on Andre Miller and was allowed to hide Nash on Batum with ZERO adjustments from Nate.

Still, even if C.J. is capable of cutting and scoring at the rim the stats say Butler is MUCH more capable of doing it. Butler's greater size and strength make him much more capable of finishing in traffic, while also drawing a LOT more fouls (something C.J. is very poor at). In other words, if C.J. could do it, Butler could do it better.

Plus, you ignored the way Holiday lit up POR on the other end. Do you really think Holiday would have posted two new payoff career highs in the span of three games if Butler would have been guarding him? The 41 points Holiday scored in Game 4 wasn't just a new playoff career high, it was the most points he's ever scored in an NBA game - period. This wasn't some young player having a breakout game/series. This was a 9 year NBA veteran with over 600 games of NBA experience under his belt and he lit us up like he's never lit up anybody else.

Butler would have helped us - a lot - on both ends of the floor in that series, but this is about more than just one series. Butler is the kind of 2-way player you need to win in this league. He can guard multiple positions at an elite level, plus he is a very efficient scorer who gets to the FT line (important in close games - especially in the playoffs). And with his size, and ability to play both the 2 and the 3, he really helps balance our roster.

Don't get me wrong, I like C.J., I like him a lot. Getting him with the 10th pick in the draft was a steal. But, I like Butler better and think he's a better fit next to Dame (I thought the same thing about Paul George and Kawhi Leonard).

Given our staff's track record of developing guards (including C.J.), I feel confident that if we land Butler, eventually Simons or Trent Jr. will step up and we can start one of them at the 2 with Butler at the 3. That's the nice thing about drafting them both. We can include one of them in the package to get Butler and still have the other left to keep the pipeline of developing talent full.

In the mean time, Curry can fill that roll. Even if we didn't start Dame/Curry/Butler, that would be a hell of an effective "small ball" line up.

For those who don't think Neil is open to trading C.J., you don't think drafting Simons and Trent Jr., while also signing Curry and Stauskas to short term contracts was done to make giving up C.J. more palatable, especially if it means getting a talent like Jimmy Butler back in return?

BNM
 
Do most fans believe the Lakers are our biggest rival still?

No so much. Five years ago, definitely, but the Lakers have been so bad the last five years, It's kind of taken the fun out of beating them.

It was also more of a rivalry before the last realignment, when there were only two divisions per conference and we were fighting it out with the Lakers atop the Pacific Division.

But, the hardcore faithful still occasionally to break out the "BEAT LA!" at the Rose Garden (yes, us old timers still call it that).

BNM
 
No so much. Five years ago, definitely, but the Lakers have been so bad the last five years, It's kind of taken the fun out of beating them.

It was also more of a rivalry before the last realignment, when there were only two divisions per conference and we were fighting it out with the Lakers atop the Pacific Division.

But, the hardcore faithful still occasionally to break out the "BEAT LA!" at the Rose Garden (yes, us old timers still call it that).

BNM
them sucking hasnt taken the fun out of it for me. I’ll enjoy watching the Blazers beat them even if they’re 0-82. which seems like a goal I think they should go for.... “BEAT LA!”
 
Can we trade 4 future 1sts? 2019, 2021, 2023, 2025? Along with Turner? I know it's 6 or 7 years of picks you can trade.

Does MIN look at that? That'd be a tough trade to turn down IMO.

Not gonna happen while Thibs is still in MIN:

http://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/...lippers-nets-lakers/mi5eu2s5b7n71ui643ikr5nes

"According to multiple league sources, coach Tom Thibodeau has no intention of letting Butler go for young, rebuilding-type pieces. Thibodeau, hotly pursued as a coaching free agent after leaving Chicago in 2015, went to Minnesota because he thought the team would be ready to contend quickly."

"Thibodeau has zero interest in taking a step back with Minnesota, even, according to sources, if it means he ultimately parts ways with the team."

"No one expects Tom to coach a 25-win or even 35-win team," one front-office executive told Sporting News. "Even if he has to agree to dissolve the contract, they’d do that before they go and trade Butler for draft picks."

BNM
 
Turner is a vet who Thibs likes. Start there.

This works cap wise, but I suspect it will take more. Throw in a pick or two and/or a young player.

upload_2018-9-20_16-30-6.png

Or agree to take back Dieng's horrible contract in exchange for Meyers' smaller, shorter contract:

upload_2018-9-20_16-31-22.png

Again a pick and/or young player can be added as necessary.

BNM
 
Yes, AD would still be AD, but if we had Butler, no way does Jrue Holiday go off for 33 in Game 2 and 41 in Game 4. His previous career playoff high was 26 and he AVERAGED 27.8 ppg against us. Put Butler on him and Holiday is likely much closer to his season average of 19.o ppg, maybe less since Bulter is one of the top perimeter defenders in the league.

Plus, as mentioned with Butler attacking the rim. Davis would not have been able to double team Dame out on the perimeter with abandon. That would have freed Dame to be Dame.

So yeah, NOP would have still had the best player on the court, but we would have had the 2nd and 3rd best. As it was, NOP had the 1st and 2nd best and that's why they swept us.

It wasn't that C.J, played poorly. He didn't. The biggest problem is we didn't have anyone who could make NOP pay for doubling Dame with Davis 25 feet from the basket on almost every possession - that and our inability to stop Holiday on the other end. Davis is a superstar, He's going to get his no matter what. The problem is our superstar didn't look like a superstar with the constant double teams from Davis and Holiday, while our defense allowed Holiday to look like a superstar on the other end.

BNM

I kinda get a deja vu to the days of us against the Lakers. "Shaq will get his no matter what, but he's not our biggest problem - Kobe is the one we should have contained."

I guess i just don't like "what if(s)" too much.
CJ McCollum, 25.3 PPG 52% /2 42% /3 Defensive Rating 119
Damian Lillard 18.5 PPG 35% /2 30% / 3 Defensive Rating 119

We see these stats and we blame Dame's performance on CJ's play-style and limitations.

Maybe our gameplan sucked? maybe our plays get boring and predictable? one of the worst teams in the league in 'Team APG'? superstars get "constant double teams" since Moses wore short pants, there's nothing new about it.
Can someone here actually tell me with a straight face that Terry Stotts is good at making adjustments?

Of course i do have to acknowledge that CJ is a very bad defender, but even if you get Butler and he replaces CJ's defense - you still have the problem of Dame's defense and you still have maybe 3.5 good players for every game while the rest of the team presents complete darkness.

I'm sorry, but that's not enough to be a contender.
 
I kinda get a deja vu to the days of us against the Lakers. "Shaq will get his no matter what, but he's not our biggest problem - Kobe is the one we should have contained."

I guess i just don't like "what if(s)" too much.
CJ McCollum, 25.3 PPG 52% /2 42% /3 Defensive Rating 119
Damian Lillard 18.5 PPG 35% /2 30% / 3 Defensive Rating 119

We see these stats and we blame Dame's performance on CJ's play-style and limitations.

Maybe our gameplan sucked? maybe our plays get boring and predictable? one of the worst teams in the league in 'Team APG'? superstars get "constant double teams" since Moses wore short pants, there's nothing new about it.
Can someone here actually tell me with a straight face that Terry Stotts is good at making adjustments?

Of course i do have to acknowledge that CJ is a very bad defender, but even if you get Butler and he replaces CJ's defense - you still have the problem of Dame's defense and you still have maybe 3.5 good players for every game while the rest of the team presents complete darkness.

I'm sorry, but that's not enough to be a contender.

Dame improved his defense a LOT last season. He went from bad to slightly below average. That may not sound like much, but surround him with guys like Butler, Nurk, Aminu/Collins, and he'll be fine. You can hide one weak defender, but it's really hard to hide two weak defenders, especially when they are both too short to guard SFs or PFs.

You also don't seem to think any of your young players will amount to anything. Collins and Nurk should both be better this year. I think Trent Jr. is closer to contributing than most think and Simons has some real potential. In the mean time Curry isn't his brother, but he's still solid and better than any bench player we've had in a while.

Maybe not immediate contender status, but a lot close than we are now. To me, that's a move in the right direction.

BNM
 
Stotts was out coached by Gentry.
That was the biggest problem.
Most coaches will attempt to make it more difficult on the other teams best player.
Stotts didn't do this, he put a gameplan out that played to AD's strength in hopes AD would be too tired in the 4th.

Watching that series, it felt like anytime Lillard was put in space he scored.
It's when that pick and roll came, which allowed two defenders to go to the ball. Is when Lillard struggled.

Yes all of what you mentioned can help, but at the end of the day Stotts didn't make it easier on Lillard to play basketball.
That's his job as a coach.
Instead forced his superstar to play sideline to sideline out of a double team all series long.

I don't believe for a second that with as gifted as a scorer CJ is.
That if he was put in a position to release pressure with a cut.
That he wouldn't have been able to score at the rim.

At the end of the day, our gameplan was ass. Stotts got paid millions to come up with a gameplan that a 5th grader could come up with.
Everybody stand around, watch Lillard get doubled out of a P&R and hope the three goes in if you get the ball.

Well said. It's funny that i wrote something similar before i read your post.

I would just like to point out that Javale Bigtits McGee had an alley hop party against us in the playoffs only a year prior to what we saw in New Orleans.

I repeat:
WE COULD NOT CONTAIN JAVALE MCGEE !
 
Dame improved his defense a LOT last season. He went from bad to slightly below average. That may not sound like much, but surround him with guys like Butler, Nurk, Aminu/Collins, and he'll be fine. You can hide one weak defender, but it's really hard to hide two weak defenders, especially when they are both too short to guard SFs or PFs.

You also don't seem to think any of your young players will amount to anything. Collins and Nurk should both be better this year. I think Trent Jr. is closer to contributing than most think and Simons has some real potential. In the mean time Curry isn't his brother, but he's still solid and better than any bench player we've had in a while.

Maybe not immediate contender status, but a lot close than we are now. To me, that's a move in the right direction.

BNM

I don't know what is the value of Nurkic and Collins tbh, Collins ceiling seem to move all the time. He is a confusing player IMO.
I'm not sure Nurkic fits the league as a modern Center, maybe he can come out with a solid 3point shot this year + if he can finish at the rim like he should then we are definitely better.

Nothing seems to make me believe in this roster, i want to see change and consistency before i get myself hyped again. Maybe if Stotts,Turner and Mayers were gone...

I am excited about seeing Simons and Trent though, both of them look fresh and interesting enough.
 
Well said. It's funny that i wrote something similar before i read your post.

I would just like to point out that Javale Bigtits McGee had an alley hop party against us in the playoffs only a year prior to what we saw in New Orleans.

I repeat:
WE COULD NOT CONTAIN JAVALE MCGEE !

We were missing Nurk and Ed Davis. We were starting Meyers Leonard and Noah Vonleh at center. That wasn't coaching, that was personnel.

BNM
 
We were missing Nurk and Ed Davis. We were starting Meyers Leonard and Noah Vonleh at center. That wasn't coaching, that was personnel.

BNM

Yet we still had the same personnel problem against Davis. We're getting a bit deep here lol, but wouldn't you say that an alley oop is an alley oop? Of course it's more humiliating when it's McGee, but it's not really a "skillful" move. Just wanted to point out we had the same problem a year before. :-)
 

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