Merged: The Draft Thread For Stuff About The Draft Including Thoughts About The Draft

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JDC said:
Yeah, not sure where "stroke has improved" is coming from. Still doesn't look fluid or natural to me. Doesn't mean he'll never be a shooter, but I don't think this video changes his stock at all. Almost any big with NBA talent can makes 3's in an open gym. Doesn't mean you want them shooting them in a live game.
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I doubt he will ever be a 3 and D guy, but considering he only took four 3's all year, isn't it safe to say his deep ball has probably improved a little? Plus he has only been practicing from NBA range for a month. I think the video could change his stock. I think it at least shows he has potential to extend his range....... after another year or so. My expectations for him were pretty low in the NBA, so for me I am pleasantly surprised.
 
MickZagger said:
Its just horrible logic. Trends are broken, players mature at different levels.

Its like saying stay away from players from Weber State before Lillard because they'll never be good, there's never been one. Stay away from players from Lehigh they suck, stay away from Bosnian players there's never been a good one in the NBA. Stay away from guys from Wisconsin-Green Bay, or Longwood college.....On and on. Its lazy gossip shit.
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Magnificent people find themselves in all sorts of situations, that's not necessarily to say that those situations create magnificent people. Dame and CJ's circumstances led them to their respective colleges, that doesn't mean the next player to come out of Weber St or Lehigh will be the next Dame or CJ. The logic works both ways, just because we haven't seen a Lillard or McCollum come out of Gonzaga recently doesn't mean it can't/won't happen, but the circumstance of a player while it may have an impact on shaping who they are does not determine who they are. You've got to see where the skepticism comes from, it's the same skepticism which kept Dame and CJ from being drafted where they should have been in hindsight.
 
Fonzthecpt1 said:
Magnificent people find themselves in all sorts of situations, that's not necessarily to say that those situations create magnificent people. Dame and CJ's circumstances led them to their respective colleges, that doesn't mean the next player to come out of Weber St or Lehigh will be the next Dame or CJ. The logic works both ways, just because we haven't seen a Lillard or McCollum come out of Gonzaga recently doesn't mean it can't/won't happen, but the circumstance of a player while it may have an impact on shaping who they are does not determine who they are. You've got to see where the skepticism comes from, it's the same skepticism which kept Dame and CJ from being drafted where they should have been in hindsight.
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I don't see where the skepticism comes from. I watch a player for what that player does on the court, not for what brand associated with the prospect. Look at the Spurs for example of this. Outside of Duncan, they have built a championship on the backs of guys like Manu who was a late 2nd round pick, Tony Parker a late 1st. Kawhi Leonard made it out of San Diego St.

Good players come from all different places. University of Portland I'm sure at some point will have a HOF candidate hooper. Its just shitty logic. Something someone can grasp onto who isn't really concerned with evaluating a player for what he is and instead just wants to lump into some kind of group because they're lazy.
 
MickZagger said:
I don't see where the skepticism comes from. I watch a player for what that player does on the court, not for what brand associated with the prospect. Look at the Spurs for example of this. Outside of Duncan, they have built a championship on the backs of guys like Manu who was a late 2nd round pick, Tony Parker a late 1st. Kawhi Leonard made it out of San Diego St.

Good players come from all different places. University of Portland I'm sure at some point will have a HOF candidate hooper. Its just shitty logic. Something someone can grasp onto who isn't really concerned with evaluating a player for what he is and instead just wants to lump into some kind of group because they're lazy.
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Exactly this.

I'd love to see a GM defend a draft pick with: "He's black, so we figured he'd be better than the white guy who was rated just as highly. That was the deciding factor."

Talk about fired on the spot.
 
I saw somewhere that Rabb, Thornwell, Brooks and Ferguson will work out with us. Rabb and Ferguson are projected to go around the same spots that we have (Ferguson should be available with 15 and could be available with 20, Rabb could be get at 20 and 26 probably) but Brooks and Thornwell are both projected as second round picks. I wonder if they are going to move up or maybe we anticipate to also buy picks in the second round too.
 
MickZagger said:
Its just horrible logic. Trends are broken, players mature at different levels.

Its like saying stay away from players from Weber State before Lillard because they'll never be good, there's never been one. Stay away from players from Lehigh they suck, stay away from Bosnian players there's never been a good one in the NBA. Stay away from guys from Wisconsin-Green Bay, or Longwood college.....On and on. Its lazy gossip shit.
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The difference is that there have been multiple examples, as opposed to the single examples you gave.

At some point Boeheim will be gone, and things will change.

It's certainly not 100% either. Rony Seikely was a good player who helped his team win. Coleman and Melo bith very good players. Just don't help their teams win.

Brad Miller was a solid player.

Just IMO, bust chances are higher for my stereotypes
 
BonesJones said:
Exactly this.

I'd love to see a GM defend a draft pick with: "He's black, so we figured he'd be better than the white guy who was rated just as highly. That was the deciding factor."

Talk about fired on the spot.
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Fact is, that white guy probably wouldn't be rated just as highly because of the bias below:

Happens every year. It's called 'limited athleticism' in GM speak - even if the minority is less athletic. Perception. Doesn't have the foot speed to play defense. Just a shooter. Essentially, look at everything said about Luke Kennard, JJ Redick, Jimmer.

Now compare that to similar players who have 'limited athleticism but use it well, crafty finisher'.

Just because something is a lazy comparison on the surface doesn't make it not true; hell, Calipari has his line on not recruiting anyone that's not poor because it's all they have.

I'm sure he is a lazy evaluator of talent and recruiter, certainly doesn't appear to be working for him at all. Or he just found a system that successfully mitigates risk based on his years of experience.

I'm sure if Prime-Sabonis was at Syracuse and they were crushing people MM would at least look at him. But, you're also hard pressed to find any 'big white guys' that put up near the numbers of Lillard or McCollum in college; I would say even more hard pressed to find one nearly as dominant as them when they took the court, especially facing double and triple teams, especially in McCollums case.

Larry Bird on the topic:

http://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=1818396

NBA GM on the Topic:

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Ricky-Rubio-1155/

Some scouts still question his athleticism and perimeter shooting, with one GM we spoke to recently going as far as to say that he would “never draft a white guy.”
 
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Would you trade Crabbe for Orlando's no. 33 and no. 35 picks? Not saying they would want to do that but they could be a good trade partner for a second rounder. They had Aminu and Harkless on that famous targets list posted earlier in the year. Aminu for no. 33 or 35 would be great.
 
Sarni said:
Would you trade Crabbe for Orlando's no. 33 and no. 35 picks? Not saying they would want to do that but they could be a good trade partner for a second rounder. They had Aminu and Harkless on that famous targets list posted earlier in the year. Aminu for no. 33 or 35 would be great.
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Of course. Before his surgery, this is exactly the type of trade I expected we would make. Nothing against Crabbe but we can't afford him. And he had enough great games last season for teams with cap space (and little FA opportunities) to trade for him.
 
Sarni said:
Would you trade Crabbe for Orlando's no. 33 and no. 35 picks? Not saying they would want to do that but they could be a good trade partner for a second rounder. They had Aminu and Harkless on that famous targets list posted earlier in the year. Aminu for no. 33 or 35 would be great.
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In.
A.
Heart.
Beat.
 
Sarni said:
Would you trade Crabbe for Orlando's no. 33 and no. 35 picks? Not saying they would want to do that but they could be a good trade partner for a second rounder. They had Aminu and Harkless on that famous targets list posted earlier in the year. Aminu for no. 33 or 35 would be great.
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I'd do that trade so fast.

Even for just one of them.
 
Sarni said:
Would you trade Crabbe for Orlando's no. 33 and no. 35 picks? Not saying they would want to do that but they could be a good trade partner for a second rounder. They had Aminu and Harkless on that famous targets list posted earlier in the year. Aminu for no. 33 or 35 would be great.
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I'd trade Crabbe for nothing but cap relief, if a team wanted to eat his full salary. Two second rounders on top of that would make it an amazing deal.

My worry is that they'll have to attach assets to Crabbe to dump his salary.
 
Good point about his surgery. Team may take a chance, still. Trading Aminu for one of those picks could be good too. Would allow us to shed a bit of salary and in general I feel we could balance the roster a bit this way.

Meyers for a mid or late second rounder would be so tremendous too.
 
We are meeting with Zach Collins apparently. He is projected higher than 15 but I doubt we trade up that 3-4 spots for him, would be tough to do. Maybe he will fall.
 
Sarni said:
Would you trade Crabbe for Orlando's no. 33 and no. 35 picks? Not saying they would want to do that but they could be a good trade partner for a second rounder. They had Aminu and Harkless on that famous targets list posted earlier in the year. Aminu for no. 33 or 35 would be great.
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i would do that trade, i would pick sindarius thornwell and johnathan motley
 
HailBlazers said:
His contract is ridiculous but three point shooters are at a premium higher than ever.
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Only if they can do other things in addition to shooting. Otherwise, Anthony Morrow would be a premium player and he isn't. Mostly because he's a really poor defender, like Crabbe.

The Nets offered Crabbe so much because (I would guess) they hoped he was on the verge of a breakout, and could be a three-and-D who could slash to the hoop effectively. If that's what Crabbe was, he might be worth the offer. Instead, he didn't progress at all this year and is still (mostly) just a spot-up shooter with no defense.
 
Minstrel said:
Only if they can do other things in addition to shooting. Otherwise, Anthony Morrow would be a premium player and he isn't. Mostly because he's a really poor defender, like Crabbe.

The Nets offered Crabbe so much because (I would guess) they hoped he was on the verge of a breakout, and could be a three-and-D who could slash to the hoop effectively. If that's what Crabbe was, he might be worth the offer. Instead, he didn't progress at all this year and is still (mostly) just a spot-up shooter with no defense.
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We need to remember that Nets were in position where they had a lot of cap space, very little talent and zero picks for the next two seasons (on top of having no pick last season). That sort of put them in a desperate position and they knew no good player would sign for them so they had to go for 2nd and 3rd tier projects that might get better. They offered Tyler Johnson $50M too. They will be out there offering mad deals to Waiters, Hardaway Jr, Otto Porter and Caldwell Pope this year for sure.
 
Pinwheel1 said:
Of course. Before his surgery, this is exactly the type of trade I expected we would make. Nothing against Crabbe but we can't afford him. And he had enough great games last season for teams with cap space (and little FA opportunities) to trade for him.
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would probably have to take Biyombo to make it work but I still would do that deal. Biyombo as a backup C is more useful than crabbe. If we gotta be in Cap hell might as well get players we actually could use.
 
chzbrgr said:
would probably have to take Biyombo to make it work but I still would do that deal. Biyombo as a backup C is more useful than crabbe. If we gotta be in Cap hell might as well get players we actually could use.
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That could work. Magic would probably prefer Crabbe to Biyombo and would like to get out of Biyombo's contract as well, perhaps even more so than us with Crabbe.

Just wondering how we can get rid of some contracts and get late first rounders or second round picks to go with it. Honestly would not mind if we had 4-5 rookies next season and less terrible contracts. Build the future.
 
More random post-combine thoughts:

- Collins at #15 is becoming less of a stretch and I think there is even a chance Justin Jackson falls to #20, but wing scarcity and the interview process might keep that from happening.

- Diallo and Dozier still look like the only non-lottery wings that have significant upside to me. Diallo probably goes top 20, but I think Dozier could be had with a mid 2nd rounder. His shooting is going to turn a lot of teams off, but I think he did himself enough favors during the 2nd half of day 2 to find himself in that 35-45 range at worst.

- Kadeem Allen is still my favorite late 2nd target. Hoping Neil nabs either #53 or $56 from Boston and takes him.

- Becoming more ok about Jordan Bell if we try and move off of #26 to pick up a couple early 2nd's, although I still like Motley more.

- Swanigan is a guy I tried to talk myself into more, but even the best of the best rebounding / post scoring bigs who are terrible on D get played off the floor in the playoffs (ie Enes Kanter) so he's a firm no for me right now.
 
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So DraftExpress has Justin Jackson available at 15, Terrance Ferguson available at 20, and Harry Giles available at 26.

That would be outstanding.
 
JDC said:
More random post-combine thoughts:

- Collins at #15 is becoming less of stretch and I think there is even a chance Justin Jackson falls to #20, but wing scarcity and the interview process might keep that from happening.

- Diallo and Dozier still look like the only non-lottery wings that have significant upside to me. Diallo probably goes top 20, but I think Dozier could be had with a mid 2nd rounder. His shooting is going to turn a lot of teams off, but I think he did himself enough favors during the 2nd half of day 2 to find himself in that 35-45 range at worst.

- Kadeem Allen is still my favorite late 2nd target. Hoping Neil nabs either #53 or $56 and takes him.

- Becoming more ok about Jordan Bell if we try and move off of #26 to pick up a couple early 2nd's, although I still like Motley more.

- Swanigan is a guy I tried to talk myself into more, but even the best of the best rebounding / post scoring bigs who are terrible on D get played off the floor in the playoffs (ie Enes Kanter) so he's a firm no for me right now.
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I like Dozier because he could play 3 positions (if he adds weight). He's 6'7 with a 6'11 wingspan. Develop his jumper and he'll be a good player. (He actually reminds me a big of Evan Turner in terms of size and their strengths and weakness, not necessarily play style.)

My ideal situation would be to trade 20, 26, and a future 2nd to DEN for 13, 49, and 51. However, I don't think they'd take that.

If Collins AND Jackson fall to 15, then I'd try to trade 20 and 26 to Chicago for 16 and 38. We'd draft Collins, Jackson (Two players who played in the national championship game and could play right away), and then we could draft any sort of player at 38 (Dozier, Bell, Robinson, Motley, Ojeleye, Blossomgame, etc.)
 
BonesJones said:
I like Dozier because he could play 3 positions (if he adds weight). He's 6'7 with a 6'11 wingspan. Develop his jumper and he'll be a good player. (He actually reminds me a big of Evan Turner in terms of size and their strengths and weakness, not necessarily play style.)

My ideal situation would be to trade 20, 26, and a future 2nd to DEN for 13, 49, and 51. However, I don't think they'd take that.

If Collins AND Jackson fall to 15, then I'd try to trade 20 and 26 to Chicago for 16 and 38. We'd draft Collins, Jackson (Two players who played in the national championship game and could play right away), and then we could draft any sort of player at 38 (Dozier, Bell, Robinson, Motley, Ojeleye, Blossomgame, etc.)
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if we get both zach collins and justin jackson, the draft is already a win right there, with 26th i would get thornwell just because of his 3 and d potential
 
Collins slipping

Blazer fans.....yeah, let's draft the guy who is falling down draft boards
 
Zach Collins, Justin Jackson and Harry Giles would be such tremendous return from this draft that I cannot even express it.

Any of Anunoby, Ferguson, Ike and Patton would be cool too. I kind of cannot decide between Jackson, Anunoby and Ferguson. All seem like they have good potential. I feel there is a chance both Collins and OG will be available at 15 but we will have to choose one already knowing that the other will go before 20. We would probably choose Collins then and then take Jackson or Ferguson at 20 (in that order).
 
Mediocre Man said:
Collins slipping

Blazer fans.....yeah, let's draft the guy who is falling down draft boards
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There are two different ways that players "fall down draft boards".

1. Red flags crop up causing teams to sour on a player, and he becomes less desirable.
2. Other lesser known players get overvalued, jumping up and pushing other players down.

Which of these two scenarios is applicable to Collins? If the second, is that really a negative reflection on him?
 
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