Religion Mid East Religious War, Now with added USA Involvement!

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oldfisherman said:
DEW weapons have developed to be an effective weapon against slower moving targets, such as drones and sub-sonic cruise missiles.

However, due to a variety of conditions, they can not now, and probably will never be able to destroy hypersonic missiles.

Particles in the air, such as dust and moisture, limit DEWs max accurate range to around 5 miles. The laser beam needs to hit the exact same moving spot for a long enough time to heat up, and then destroy the target. DEWs on ships today need about 15 seconds on target to destroy it. Hypersonic missiles travel too fast.
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Sounds like we just need more power...

more-power.gif
 
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too.
 
@AmirIcon - Could you tell us about your background? I am a fairly typical liberal American Jew, although I don't fit every stereotype . For example, I raised my kids to be independent thinkers. Both were Bat Mitzvahed and now, both are intensely anti- Israel, pro-Palestinian. Hoisted by my own petard!

Where do you live? Are you Muslim? What are your politics?
 
oldfisherman said:
DEW weapons have developed to be an effective weapon against slower moving targets, such as drones and sub-sonic cruise missiles.

However, due to a variety of conditions, they can not now, and probably will never be able to destroy hypersonic missiles.

Particles in the air, such as dust and moisture, limit DEWs max accurate range to around 5 miles. The laser beam needs to hit the exact same moving spot for a long enough time to heat up, and then destroy the target. DEWs on ships today need about 15 seconds on target to destroy it. Hypersonic missiles travel too fast.
Click to expand...

I suspect we have military technology whose capabilities are not widely known.
 
Stevenson said:
@AmirIcon - Could you tell us about your background? I am a fairly typical liberal American Jew, although I don't fit every stereotype . For example, I raised my kids to be independent thinkers. Both were Bat Mitzvahed and now, both are intensely anti- Israel, pro-Palestinian. Hoisted by my own petard!

Where do you live? Are you Muslim? What are your politics?
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Hey man, sure. I'm a progressive Persian who was raised without religion. I was atheist until very recently. Not religious but can see the value in it. My parents frowned upon it since they fled Iran during the 79 revolution so they dislike religion. They've always been more on the conservative/Republican side unfortunately because they blame Carter for ruining their country. I try to tell them that pretty much every nation has wielded religion to get their population in line. All the major religions have mutated. Very interesting to hear about your kids!
 
Hahahahahahaha!

“From the River, To the Sea, To the Cheese”

 
AmirIcon said:
Hey man, sure. I'm a progressive Persian who was raised without religion. I was atheist until very recently. Not religious but can see the value in it. My parents frowned upon it since they fled Iran during the 79 revolution so they dislike religion. They've always been more on the conservative/Republican side unfortunately because they blame Carter for ruining their country. I try to tell them that pretty much every nation has wielded religion to get their population in line. All the major religions have mutated. Very interesting to hear about your kids!
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So the debate I have with my kids almost every day (kids, ha! They are in their late 20s) is about this conflict. My take is that both sides are guilty. You can only say one side is if you stop looking backwards because it is action, reprisal, reprisal, action, etc. My kids see only how the Jews have treated Gaza since, say, 2006. And yes, of course it is reprehensible.

But so was the Palestinians murdering the Israeli Olympic team in 1972 - in Germany no less! At Camp David, Arafat was offered 94% of Gaza and the West Bank for peace and he turned it down. That is reprehensible too.

The only answer imo is a two-state solution, and for that to happen, Bibi must go! But so too must Hamas.
 
Stevenson said:
The only answer imo is a two-state solution, and for that to happen, Bibi must go! But so too must Hamas.
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I absolutely agree with it. I am on record as saying that Bibi's ability to reappear over and over again as a cockroach is mostly because of the Hamas and the Palestinians inability to commit to peace and even with that, let's remember that there were 4 or 5 elections in the last 2? years in Israel because so many people do not like him (and their absurd political system where everyone can run to the parliament).

At the end of the day, until both sides are willing to accept the 2 state solution (which Israel was on board with many times in history), nothing will happen. We just need the Palestinians in some way shape or form to commit to it. I have no doubt that Israel will happily go into this direction as I do not see any reason for them to actually want the Gaza strip and / or the west bank unless you are a religious nut.
 
A lot of people seem to be most interested in assigning blame to one side or the other. I think I know enough to understand that I don't take either side, only the side of wanting the killing to stop. And the conflict will never end until both sides recognize the role they play in perpetuating the hate, which is much easier said that done. But an even greater problem, is that we're now in the cusp of WW3. Hold on to your shorts folks.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
Get the UAE and Saudi Arabia to fund projects like this for Gaza. Put some reasonable conditions on it but more land, means more prosperity, means more peace. Offer a better future.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/u9iWQybyhttvNDEN6
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Maybe they should fund desalination plants and modern power plants first... Just imagine how much better they would be if instead of funneling so much money for rockets and tunnels Hamas funneled it to infrastructure projects.

Just for reference, Israel, which spends a ton of money on it's army spent 4.5% of it's budget on the "military" in 2022, Hamas spent 20%
 
Stevenson said:
So the debate I have with my kids almost every day (kids, ha! They are in their late 20s) is about this conflict. My take is that both sides are guilty. You can only say one side is if you stop looking backwards because it is action, reprisal, reprisal, action, etc. My kids see only how the Jews have treated Gaza since, say, 2006. And yes, of course it is reprehensible.

But so was the Palestinians murdering the Israeli Olympic team in 1972 - in Germany no less! At Camp David, Arafat was offered 94% of Gaza and the West Bank for peace and he turned it down. That is reprehensible too.

The only answer imo is a two-state solution, and for that to happen, Bibi must go! But so too must Hamas.
Click to expand...

Totally agree. The only caveat I would say is that treating them like equals isn't right since the power is so asymmetrical. One of them has a nuclear superpower behind them and has spent 7 millions dollars in two weeks for Youtube ads. They already have commercials made! Mistakes have been made in the past on each side for sure and both need to agree to a two state solution and rid themselves of Bibi and Hamas.

The problem I see is politicians on both sides will sell fear to their population in order to grab power. We have that in the U.S. too. Every 15 minutes we have Republicans saying we need to go to war with China, Mexico, Iran, etc.

But yes, the only chance we have at peace is to get rid of the occupation and have a two state solution with very big walls separating the two.
 
AmirIcon said:
Totally agree. The only caveat I would say is that treating them like equals isn't right since the power is so asymmetrical. One of them has a nuclear superpower behind them and has spent 7 millions dollars in two weeks for Youtube ads. They already have commercials made! Mistakes have been made in the past on each side for sure and both need to agree to a two state solution and rid themselves of Bibi and Hamas.
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I agree that the 2 states solution is the way forward, I am not sure why you are being stuck on asymmetrical and want to punish success.

In 1948, when both the Palestinians and the Jewish people that became Israel could go for the 2 states solution - there were 1.4 million Arabs and less than 1 million Jewish people in the area that covers the 2 states. Through continued mistakes over the years, always rejecting the 2 state solution because they wanted all of it, the Palestinians were left behind. It's a fact - I don't think there is any argument that they would be in a much better place if they did not go for the all or nothing option.

Sounds to me (and correct me if I am wrong) like for some reason you blame the Israelis for working hard to make a success of their country and for some reason this means that they have to give up more. I do not think there is any point in mentioning the asymmetrical situation. It is a simple cause-effect situation.

History has shown us that when it's neighbors are willing to accept it's right to exist (Egypt, Jordan) - Israel will make concessions and will live peacefully with it's neighbors (Over 35 years with Egypt, almost 30 with Jordan). We have seen that other than the Iran sponsored terror groups in Lebanon, Israel and Lebanon can coexist even if there is no official peace treaty. Israeli planes have travel rights over Saudi air-space and vice versa, even if there is no official peace treaty. I do not know what is happening with Syria, but even tho there is no real love between these countries, there was no real conflict since 1973? It has basically been a live and live situation.

Hack, we have seen that Israel gave territory back to the Palestinian authority as a first step to a 2 states solution which was almost immediatly negated by Hamas.

So, I do not see what asymmetry about their success with their approach to life has anything to do with it. Bibi, imho, is a symptom of the continued resistance by the Palestinians to compromise and the continued terror activities even when Israel gave them authority, and logically, you can not fault Israel for working to protect itself against continuous terror. It's not the "PC" thing to say, but the Palestinians situation is to a large percent, their own doing - and until they accept it and concentrate on being happy instead of being victorious - I can not logically see how it changes. That's the cause of asymmetry in success, it has nothing to do with the way forward.

Again, there is all this claim that Israel wants to control Gaza and the west bank, other than the religious nuts (and every place has them), this seems very illogical to me. Israel was willing to give Sinai back for peace with Egypt, and Sinai has large oil deposits and had a large tourism opportunity (If anyone ever has a chance to go scuba diving in the red sea, do it, it's an amazing place). What natural resources are there for Israel to want to exploit in the west bank or Gaza? What tourism targets are there? As we have seen, Israel gave control of these territories already to the PA and had to stop the process for a 2 state solution once the Palestinians decided they do not want some, they want all.

It's time to stop this false equivalency nonsense. The only solution that will work is 2 states, initially with security measures and with time, hopefully, open borders. But it will not happen as long as only 1 side has shown willingness to work to that goal.
 
andalusian said:
I agree that the 2 states solution is the way forward, I am not sure why you are being stuck on asymmetrical and want to punish success.

In 1948, when both the Palestinians and the Jewish people that became Israel could go for the 2 states solution - there were 1.4 million Arabs and less than 1 million Jewish people in the area that covers the 2 states. Through continued mistakes over the years, always rejecting the 2 state solution because they wanted all of it, the Palestinians were left behind. It's a fact - I don't think there is any argument that they would be in a much better place if they did not go for the all or nothing option.

Sounds to me (and correct me if I am wrong) like for some reason you blame the Israelis for working hard to make a success of their country and for some reason this means that they have to give up more. I do not think there is any point in mentioning the asymmetrical situation. It is a simple cause-effect situation.

History has shown us that when it's neighbors are willing to accept it's right to exist (Egypt, Jordan) - Israel will make concessions and will live peacefully with it's neighbors (Over 35 years with Egypt, almost 30 with Jordan). We have seen that other than the Iran sponsored terror groups in Lebanon, Israel and Lebanon can coexist even if there is no official peace treaty. Israeli planes have travel rights over Saudi air-space and vice versa, even if there is no official peace treaty. I do not know what is happening with Syria, but even tho there is no real love between these countries, there was no real conflict since 1973? It has basically been a live and live situation.

Hack, we have seen that Israel gave territory back to the Palestinian authority as a first step to a 2 states solution which was almost immediatly negated by Hamas.

So, I do not see what asymmetry about their success with their approach to life has anything to do with it. Bibi, imho, is a symptom of the continued resistance by the Palestinians to compromise and the continued terror activities even when Israel gave them authority, and logically, you can not fault Israel for working to protect itself against continuous terror. It's not the "PC" thing to say, but the Palestinians situation is to a large percent, their own doing - and until they accept it and concentrate on being happy instead of being victorious - I can not logically see how it changes. That's the cause of asymmetry in success, it has nothing to do with the way forward.

Again, there is all this claim that Israel wants to control Gaza and the west bank, other than the religious nuts (and every place has them), this seems very illogical to me. Israel was willing to give Sinai back for peace with Egypt, and Sinai has large oil deposits and had a large tourism opportunity (If anyone ever has a chance to go scuba diving in the red sea, do it, it's an amazing place). What natural resources are there for Israel to want to exploit in the west bank or Gaza? What tourism targets are there? As we have seen, Israel gave control of these territories already to the PA and had to stop the process for a 2 state solution once the Palestinians decided they do not want some, they want all.

It's time to stop this false equivalency nonsense. The only solution that will work is 2 states, initially with security measures and with time, hopefully, open borders. But it will not happen as long as only 1 side has shown willingness to work to that goal.
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I agree with the two states thing. Each one gets a Dakota!
 
SlyPokerDog said:
I agree with the two states thing. Each one gets a Dakota!
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Surprisingly, if I had to choose, I would take north Dakota. I have been to South Dakota before and it sure has the more famous attractions, but if I never have to go again, I am fine with it even tho the badlands are an amazing place, second only to Joshua tree in it's alien planet vibes.

I was surprised how much I liked north Dakota last summer when we drove through it. The reason we chose to do it was because I desperately wanted to avoid south Dakota telling my better half that it will likely suck, but at least it will be a new place we have never been to that sucks.

There are actually some really nice places in North Dakota, the trnp is fantastic, Bismarck is surprisingly good for a small town in the middle of nowhere, and while the highway to cross the state is long and flat like south Dakota, it's actually pretty in places.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
Get the UAE and Saudi Arabia to fund projects like this for Gaza. Put some reasonable conditions on it but more land, means more prosperity, means more peace. Offer a better future.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/u9iWQybyhttvNDEN6
Click to expand...
Thats key and it will help the Arab countries that support Israels right to exist. The economics possibilities are great for those that want peace.
 
Censored Men seems pretty antisemitic. Propaganda at its best, I guess.
 
A journalist was covering the war when he learned his wife and their two children had been killed in the bombing.
 
RR7 said:
showing videos of what some people are doing is antisemitic and propaganda?
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I looked at other stuff reported and to me it seemed one sided without any rebuke of a hamas brutal crimes. Im for two state and peace where Hamas wants Israel /Jews/ Americans dead. They will tell you so.
 
Hoopguru said:
I looked at other stuff reported and to me it seemed one sided without any rebuke of a hamas brutal crimes. Im for two state and peace where Hamas wants Israel /Jews/ Americans dead. They will tell you so.
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Not showing both sides doesn't make them antisemitic, though. One sided, fine. But It's ok to call out someone for doing something bad. Calling them antisemitic for doing so reinforces the Israeli actions.
 
RR7 said:
Not showing both sides doesn't make them antisemitic, though. One sided, fine. But It's ok to call out someone for doing something bad. Calling them antisemitic for doing so reinforces the Israeli actions.
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I agree with that. But Hamas and supporters of Hamas buy into the doctrine of death to Israel and America.
 
Hoopguru said:
I agree with that. But Hamas and supporters of Hamas buy into the doctrine of death to Israel and America.
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And that is completely irrelevant to calling anyone and everyone who disagrees with Israeli actions an antisemite.
 
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