Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters

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UncleCliffy'sDaddy said:
Hey D? WTF is your problem and why is every comment that addresses race in any way, shape or form taken as a sharp stick in your own eye??? All I tried to say was that, unless you actually inhabit and experience the world of someone else, you can't truly understand where they are coming from. That there is ALWAYS two sides to every story. Period. Amen. Give the testosterone induced victim hood a rest and try to be one with us, rather than constantly implying that we're illiterate morons who can't possibly have any empathy. Your short fuse inhibits your ability to understand any side other than yours, damages your own credibility and hurts your cause. Give it a freaking rest. Red herring my ass.....
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You gave an excuse to these arsonists and that excuse was since I'm not from where they're from I don't understand them. That is a red herring. MARIS61 understands them and haven't given those felons any excuse...

They poach on federal land. Truth.
The burnt down federal land to cover up their poaching. Truth.
I'm sure they were FOR mandatory minimum sentencing as that's largely a conservative stance. Truth.
Now since they were found guilty in a court of law they don't want to serve their sentences. Truth.
To help fight their sentences their supporters commandeered a federal facility with guns while saying they're being peaceful. Truth.

What am I missing here? It's a cop out to imply I don't understand the situation because I'm a black man from Portland when all I've done is read up on the facts of the case.

Then you come up with another red herring when you say I'm "constantly implying that we're illiterate morons who can't possibly have any empathy".

C'mon now...
 
UncleCliffy'sDaddy said:
Hey D? WTF is your problem and why is every comment that addresses race in any way, shape or form taken as a sharp stick in your own eye??? All I tried to say was that, unless you actually inhabit and experience the world of someone else, you can't truly understand where they are coming from. That there is ALWAYS two sides to every story. Period. Amen. Give the testosterone induced victim hood a rest and try to be one with us, rather than constantly implying that we're illiterate morons who can't possibly have any empathy. Your short fuse inhibits your ability to understand any side other than yours, damages your own credibility and hurts your cause. Give it a freaking rest. Red herring my ass.....
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Who addressed race? We were talking About rural people...
 
dviss1 said:
You gave an excuse to these arsonists and that excuse was since I'm not from where they're from I don't understand them. That is a red herring. MARIS61 understands them and haven't given those felons any excuse...

They poach on federal land. Truth.
The burnt down federal land to cover up their poaching. Truth.
I'm sure they were FOR mandatory minimum sentencing as that's largely a conservative stance. Truth.
Now since they were found guilty in a court of law they don't want to serve their sentences. Truth.
To help fight their sentences their supporters commandeered a federal facility with guns while saying they're being peaceful. Truth.

What am I missing here? It's a cop out to imply I don't understand the situation because I'm a black man from Portland when all I've done is read up on the facts of the case.

Then you come up with another red herring when you say I'm "constantly implying that we're illiterate morons who can't possibly have any empathy".

C'mon now...
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Grumble..... read better, as there are two different stories going on with this...

"Two members of the Hammond family from Burns surrender today to begin four year prison terms. They were convicted of Arson and originally sentenced to 90 days in jail when the federal law requires five year sentences. An appeals court decided that the trial judge was wrong to cut the sentence by 4 years."
 
I condone nothing the Hammonds have done, or are alleged to have done. And I rarely believe anything the media (right wing or left wing) tells me in its entirety, but....

The Hammonds have repeatedly said throughout this circus that they would peacefully surrender themselves and I believe they are still willing to do that if they haven't done so already......truth

The Hammonds have made a concerted effort to distance themselves from the "militia" morons and their current stance....truth

The takeover of the refuge by homegrown (though out of state) scofflaws has absolutely no effect on the sentences the Hammonds are expected to serve and will continue to have no effect......truth

I do not support the Hammonds. I only tried to point out that all we know is what we're told by the media and the government. And that isn't good enough for me. These people didn't just wake up one day and decide to f**k with the federal government. They are a product of generations of farmers and ranchers, along with a culture that we on this side of the state cannot understand because we have no frame of reference. My wife has family who are serious ranchers in Marazul's neck of the woods. You will find no finer people anywhere. But they are a very different breed than those of us from the valley, and rightly so. Sit down and talk to folks like them. They have legitimate concerns about an uninformed majority making decisions that negatively impact their ability to make a living and to utilize the land they purchased through their own blood, sweat and tears. There is far more to their story than an urban public cares to hear. Most of these people have better educations, along with a better idea of what is best for them than a big city full of hipster slackers. Most farmers and ranchers are far more environmentally conscious that most "professional" environmentalists because they have years, even generations of experience to go along with a formal education. The Hammonds and others like them are in no way innocent. But there are legitimate reasons things have reached this point. And just like Ruby a Ridge, Waco, et al, we're probably not going to learn anything positive from the current situation other than don't piss off the government......
 
How have they alleged to have done it when they were convicted in a court of law? They were convicted of arson. I didn't get that from the media. I got that from Maris61 reputable link. To say that I don't understand the situation after reading it because I'm from Portland is a red herring. Just like I said.

The bottom line is that I never brought up race at all. You did.
 
UncleCliffy'sDaddy said:
They are a product of generations of farmers and ranchers, along with a culture that we on this side of the state cannot understand because we have no frame of reference. My wife has family who are serious ranchers in Marazul's neck of the woods. You will find no finer people anywhere. But they are a very different breed than those of us from the valley, and rightly so. Sit down and talk to folks like them. They have legitimate concerns about an uninformed majority making decisions that negatively impact their ability to make a living and to utilize the land they purchased through their own blood, sweat and tears. There is far more to their story than an urban public cares to hear.
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I'm with you so far. There's no question but what rural people are often outvoted by us city-dwellers.

However, that's been going on since, what, WWII? At some point one needs to accept reality. The USA is no longer an agrarian nation.

Most of these people have better educations, along with a better idea of what is best for them than a big city full of hipster slackers. Most farmers and ranchers are far more environmentally conscious that most "professional" environmentalists because they have years, even generations of experience to go along with a formal education.
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I think you are overstating the case here. Some rural people have good educations, some are environmentally conscious. I'm not so sure about 'most'.

The sad truth is, rural people are (in the language of the Republicans) takers, and they want to take more. That's all this really is. Rural areas receive significantly more in benefits than they pay in taxes, and have for decades. They also have more political power than their population would justify, even if it is currently less than what is necessary to be able to extract more money from the urban population.

barfo
 
Before I decide whether to join them, I only need to know one thing. Does the park building have a restroom?

I sacrifice my life only for causes with plumbing.
 
I can only offer the perspective of one rural "redneck" who grew up working my grandfather's 50 head of Polled Herefords and left about 15 minutes after graduation and eventually found himself working in environmental science fifteen years later.

Most people who farm (i.e. grow food) are very conscientious about soil, erosion and not shitting where they eat (if you remove pesticides from the equation -- which you can't). Stockmen are a slightly different breed, especially in places where they graze their cattle (or sheep, etc.) on BLM lots. It's all about water, grazing rights and the sneaking suspicion that some government hack is conspiring to drive you out of a business over some "nuisance" rodent or bird.

As for rural people being "takers" I don't really see it that way. I grew up seeing what we did as being the last of the producers and the people I grew up around resented (and still resent) the fuck out of "dumbfuck urbanites" (especially Portlanders) looking down at them for being "stupid" or somehow "knowing better" when most of these people have zero idea of what it means to make your living off of the land. This attitude becomes especially galling when the condescending urban dipshit talks about taking away a livelihood or a way of life with the casualness they'd usually reserve for a pair of old, worn-out shoes.

The truth is that even though I'm now a lot closer to one of those "librul Portlanders" my family used to grind their teeth over, I still have a lot of sympathy for rural people. It's a tough life for tough people and it's a damn shame there's so much identity politics wrapped up in the urban/rural divide. If people on both sides actually spent a little time trying to put themselves in the other's shoes they might find some common ground to work on real issues.
 
With those black glasses you don't look rural.
 
Nikolokolus said:
I can only offer the perspective of one rural "redneck" who grew up working my grandfather's 50 head of Polled Herefords and left about 15 minutes after graduation and eventually found himself working in environmental science fifteen years later.

Most people who farm (i.e. grow food) are very conscientious about soil, erosion and not shitting where they eat (if you remove pesticides from the equation -- which you can't). Stockmen are a slightly different breed, especially in places where they graze their cattle (or sheep, etc.) on BLM lots. It's all about water, grazing rights and the sneaking suspicion that some government hack is conspiring to drive you out of a business over some "nuisance" rodent or bird.

As for rural people being "takers" I don't really see it that way. I grew up seeing what we did as being the last of the producers and the people I grew up around resented (and still resent) the fuck out of "dumbfuck urbanites" (especially Portlanders) looking down at them for being "stupid" or somehow "knowing better" when most of these people have zero idea of what it means to make your living off of the land. This attitude becomes especially galling when the condescending urban dipshit talks about taking away a livelihood or a way of life with the casualness they'd usually reserve for a pair of old, worn-out shoes.

The truth is that even though I'm now a lot closer to one of those "librul Portlanders" my family used to grind their teeth over, I still have a lot of sympathy for rural people. It's a tough life for tough people and it's a damn shame there's so much identity politics wrapped up in the urban/rural divide. If people on both sides actually spent a little time trying to put themselves in the other's shoes they might find some common ground to work on real issues.
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Outstanding Nik!!

I second the notion on big difference between farmers and stockman, especially the BLM/National Forest crazing rights bunch, running their herds on the public land. But that is another story for another day.

Spot on post.
 
jlprk said:
With those black glasses you don't look rural.
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No sir I don't! I moved to Venice Beach at 18 from the rural Applegate Valley and lived there for 3 years before jumping at the opportunity to live in Europe for a year. After that I bounced around between Southern Colorado, Northern Arizona, Nevada and finally back to Oregon. Let's just say Ruch is a nice place to be from.
 
dviss1 said:
How have they alleged to have done it when they were convicted in a court of law? They were convicted of arson. I didn't get that from the media. I got that from Maris61 reputable link. To say that I don't understand the situation after reading it because I'm from Portland is a red herring. Just like I said.

The bottom line is that I never brought up race at all. You did.
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Ummmmmm........like innocent (NOT to say the Hammonds are innocent) people have never been convicted of a crime.....or put to death??? Based on the opinions you have expressed so strongly and so often on this site about legal and social justice issues (trying to keep race out of it here), I'd have bet you would have been a bit more open minded about guilt and innocence.....and aware that innocent men and women are imprisoned every day in America. But then, I guess these are just some far off cowboys who don't really matter, eh? All I ever tried to say was that there is obviously more to the story. Maybe you just stopped at the ending that works best for you.....
 
MarAzul said:
Hell of a shame too. Just how smart are those city boys?
Voted for that weasel Kitzhaber way too often and too much.
The Cities did it, not a rural counties carried by Kitz. Where do the sheep live??

http://gov.oregonlive.com/election/2010/Governor/
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Oh, no question that city dwellers can screw up - and because of the demographics, our screwups do affect people who aren't in the cities. But that's democracy for ya.

barfo
 
barfo said:
But that's democracy for ya
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Spot on barfo! My biggest complaint about it, gives ever bozo the right to vote wrong.
Winston Churchill was correct, Democracy is not a very good system....
 
Nikolokolus said:
As for rural people being "takers" I don't really see it that way. I grew up seeing what we did as being the last of the producers and the people I grew up around resented (and still resent) the fuck out of "dumbfuck urbanites" (especially Portlanders) looking down at them for being "stupid" or somehow "knowing better" when most of these people have zero idea of what it means to make your living off of the land. This attitude becomes especially galling when the condescending urban dipshit talks about taking away a livelihood or a way of life with the casualness they'd usually reserve for a pair of old, worn-out shoes.
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Sure. I also grew up in rural Oregon, FWIW. But just because urban people are smug self-centered assholes doesn't mean rural people aren't takers.

barfo
 
MarAzul said:
Spot on barfo! My biggest complaint about it, gives ever bozo the right to vote wrong.
Winston Churchill was correct, Democracy is not a very good system....
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Got a better idea? I will be King if y'all want.

barfo
 
UncleCliffy'sDaddy said:
Ummmmmm........like innocent (NOT to say the Hammonds are innocent) people have never been convicted of a crime.....or put to death??? Based on the opinions you have expressed so strongly and so often on this site about legal and social justice issues (trying to keep race out of it here), I'd have bet you would have been a bit more open minded about guilt and innocence.....and aware that innocent men and women are imprisoned every day in America. But then, I guess these are just some far off cowboys who don't really matter, eh? All I ever tried to say was that there is obviously more to the story. Maybe you just stopped at the ending that works best for you.....
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You're making some weird assumptions in this post.

BTW I fully believe OJ either did it or had something to do with it and he got off.

Based upon being convicted and Maris61's testimony, I came to my conclusion. However, you want to attribute my belief that they are guilty on some urban vs rural bullshit.

What I would ask you to do is go back and look at my posts in this thread. I never said they were guilty until Maris61' post.

Assuming makes an ass out of you not me.
 
dviss1 said:
It has been said that the burn was done to cover up poaching. Not sure how much truth is in that statement but if it is true...
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dviss1 said:
The place the militia has comandeered is a wildlife refuge. That's the end all be all. How can you blame the government for the actions of the Hammonds for possibly being arsonists to cover up their poaching? 90 days for burning a hundred and some odd acres? Sounds like the 90-day sentence was a slap on the wrist for something that was a terrible thing to do. More information will come out, but if it's true that they were poaching and they burned down land to cover it up, their balls should be nailed to the wall.
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After MARIS61's post.

dviss1 said:
And there you have it.
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