OT NBA Finally Ready To Make Rule Change On Hack-A-Player

[tlongII]

The question to ask yourself is: Is the game of basketball as a whole better when there are more fouls and free throws or fewer?

The game is better with better free throw shooters.

 

[riverman]

Is it going to be referee discretion as to what is an intentional foul? That would suck. Or just any off the ball foul, like a guy trying to fight through a screen gets called for a foul and -- whoops -- the other team gets two shots (or whatever) and the ball to punish the intentional foul that wasn't?

If they are going to try to discourage "intentional" fouling, I hope to god they tread lightly, and don't force the referee make a judgement call on when to invoke the penalty.

I'm talking about the intentional foul off the ball...I have no problem with fouling a guy who's handling the ball and trying to score

 

[riverman]

It's called 'strategy'. Baseball is all about strategy. Baseball would be of little interest without the strategy that goes into the game.

There's plenty of game for strategy, but intentional walking doesn't raise the excitement level of the game nor let a pitcher do battle with a hitter..I want nothing more than to see pitchers pitch to homerun hitters...it's my biggest complaint about baseball...second..both leagues should make pitchers either bat or use designated pinch hitters but it should be the same rule.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

The game is better with better free throw shooters.

How so? How do good free throw shooters make the game more enjoyable?

 

[barfo]

How so? How do good free throw shooters make the game more enjoyable?

Yeah, to be honest I find it more entertaining to watch someone miss a free throw than make one.

barfo

 

[riverman]

Yeah, to be honest I find it more entertaining to watch someone miss a free throw than make one.

barfo

for me, it's the anticipation...holding my breath thinking...c'mon CJ...make this free throw...when he makes it...it's more entertaining but not knowing has some entertainment value

 

[PtldPlatypus]

for me, it's the anticipation...holding my breath thinking...c'mon CJ...make this free throw...when he makes it...it's more entertaining but not knowing has some entertainment value

The point, however, it's that actual basketball is more entertaining than free throws, made or missed.

 

[riverman]

The point, however, it's that actual basketball is more entertaining than free throws, made or missed.

total agreement...

 

[noknobs]

And Bill Schonely wept...

 

[PDXFonz]

They are called "free" throws for a reason. We were only trying to give Jordan free points, it's not our fault he paid a buck 50 for them...

 

[BonesJones]

 

[BBert]

The game is better with better free throw shooters.

QFT

 

[BBert]

There's plenty of game for strategy, but intentional walking doesn't raise the excitement level of the game nor let a pitcher do battle with a hitter..I want nothing more than to see pitchers pitch to homerun hitters...it's my biggest complaint about baseball...second..both leagues should make pitchers either bat or use designated pinch hitters but it should be the same rule.

A walk to set up a potential double play is good, interesting baseball. A walk to load the bases could backfire big time. It's strategy. It's part of the game. If you don't appreciate it, don't watch.

And the pitcher should absolutely be required to bat. And be replaced by a better hitter when the strategy calls for it. Just like shitty free throw shooters should be sent to the line. Or take a fucking seat.

 

[hhhoggg]

had to log in to like that post^^^ well said.

 

[tlongII]

The fact that FT's consume zero game time renders your point moot.

 

[dviss1]

So rule changes are now advantage/disadvantage rather than player safety issues? Hand checking wasn't a foul before; it became one when the powers that be decided it was better for the game. Backing a player down from the three-point line was completely OK, until someone found a way to create an insurmountable advantage out of it. Hell, a good drop step is physical contact that creates an advantage; if Andre Drummond perfects an unstoppable drop step, should that suddenly become a foul too?

Face it--rules change when the governing body decides it's better for the product. I get that you're a hoops conservative, but maybe you should try to think more progressively.

You just gotta know what a foul is defined as.

"Rule 4-19 ART. 1
A personal foul is a player foul which involves illegal contact with an opponent while the ball is live, which hinders an opponent from performing normal defensive and offensive movements."

Displacement has always been a foul. Handchecking was pushing before it became handchecking. Since a push is typically with two hands or with the body, the hand checking definition was invented because that usually happens with one hand. It is displacement that "hinders an opponent from performing normal offensive movements".

The hand on the waist used to be allowed as marginal contact (marginal contact is not a foul) but it became a problem because defensive players were using that hand to steer the offensive player. Basketball is supposed to be a freedom of movement game. The defense is gaining and advantage by using displacement.

There's no question the 3pt rule was made to give small players a chance to be in the league.

No it wasn't. It helps bigs just as much as smalls.

 

[dviss1]

Backing a player down from the three-point line was completely OK, until someone found a way to create an insurmountable advantage out of it.

Hell, a good drop step is physical contact that creates an advantage; if Andre Drummond perfects an unstoppable drop step, should that suddenly become a foul too?

The so-called Charles Barkley rule was invented because Charles would take the last 10 to 12 seconds off the shot clock simply backing his man down. Mark Jackson used to do the same shit. It was boring fucking basketball and that's the reason why that rule was invented. It's actually a great rule because it promotes faster play. It's also a rule that is easily followed because to break the 5 second count you simply have to face up. Then if you back down again you get another 4.9 seconds.

A good drop step is actually marginal contact which is not a foul.

 

[riverman]

A walk to set up a potential double play is good, interesting baseball. A walk to load the bases could backfire big time. It's strategy. It's part of the game. If you don't appreciate it, don't watch.

And the pitcher should absolutely be required to bat. And be replaced by a better hitter when the strategy calls for it. Just like shitty free throw shooters should be sent to the line. Or take a fucking seat.

wow, I've followed baseball since the 50s...I never thought to just not watch!

 

[dviss1]

The point, however, it's that actual basketball is more entertaining than free throws, made or missed.

Fair enough. But watching free throws being made or missed is entertaining too. When Nic Batum made those free throws in the game when Andre Miller threw him the alley oop against San Antonio. The little 8 year old girl next to my son was SCREAMING "YOU CAN DO IT NIC!!"

I'm a vocal fan. I'm pretty loud. I stand up and shout. I've never been as loud at the game as this little girl. To this day I fully believe it was the power of that little girl's positivity that made Nic sink those free throws.

Imagine if it was Plumlee on the line...

 

[Denny Crane]

No it wasn't. It helps bigs just as much as smalls.

Without it, there would be no "smalls." Regardless of whether bigs can take 3 pt shots.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-point_field_goal

The three-point shot later became popularized by the American Basketball Association after its introduction in the 1967–68 season. Then commissioner of the ABA George Mikan stated the three-pointer "would give the smaller player a chance to score and open up the defense to make the game more enjoyable for the fans."[2]

 

[dviss1]

Without it, there would be no "smalls." Regardless of whether bigs can take 3 pt shots.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-point_field_goal

The three-point shot later became popularized by the American Basketball Association after its introduction in the 1967–68 season. Then commissioner of the ABA George Mikan stated the three-pointer "would give the smaller player a chance to score and open up the defense to make the game more enjoyable for the fans."[2]

Fair enough. My point still stands that it helps bigs just as much. It also opens up to court and falls in line with wanting basketball overall to be a freedom of movement game.

 

[Denny Crane]

Fair enough. My point still stands that it helps bigs just as much. It also opens up to court and falls in line with wanting basketball overall to be a freedom of movement game.

The data shows the pace of the game has slowed down. It doesn't seem that the court is opened up or is a freedom of movement game.

When Jordan was playing, the players drove to the hoop and dunked a lot. Today, Thibodeau and his zone-like defense make that much more difficult. Even back then, when they didn't shoot so many 3pt shots, the trend was bigger SGs (Jordan), PGs (Magic, Pippen), and SFs. Guys at those positions used to be 6'4", 6'2", and 6'5".

 

[3RA1N1AC]

Slamming a ping-pong ball at your opponents' nuts is more like Andre Miller running through Blake Griffin, foul be damned. Oh, that memory always makes me happy..

 

[dviss1]

The data shows the pace of the game has slowed down. It doesn't seem that the court is opened up or is a freedom of movement game.

When Jordan was playing, the players drove to the hoop and dunked a lot. Today, Thibodeau and his zone-like defense make that much more difficult. Even back then, when they didn't shoot so many 3pt shots, the trend was bigger SGs (Jordan), PGs (Magic, Pippen), and SFs. Guys at those positions used to be 6'4", 6'2", and 6'5".

The hand checking rule came before the NBA allowed zone defenses did it not?

 

[Denny Crane]

The hand checking rule came before the NBA allowed zone defenses did it not?

In high school, our team ran a man defense that was effectively a zone. The only difference is nobody allowed in the lane for 3 seconds. Pressure the ball, deny the ball if your man is able to receive a pass, sag toward the lane otherwise.

The championship Pistons ran a 2-3 zone above the FT line. Nobody was able to lob over it to defeat it because of the ability Ben and Sheed Wallace to cover the lane. The team was great at defense at all 5 spots and blocking the passing lanes.

 

[dviss1]

In high school, our team ran a man defense that was effectively a zone. The only difference is nobody allowed in the lane for 3 seconds. Pressure the ball, deny the ball if your man is able to receive a pass, sag toward the lane otherwise.

The championship Pistons ran a 2-3 zone above the FT line. Nobody was able to lob over it to defeat it because of the ability Ben and Sheed Wallace to cover the lane. The team was great at defense at all 5 spots and blocking the passing lanes.

Ok so don't answer my question. The NBA re instated zones in the 01-02 season. So "When Jordan was playing, the players drove to the hoop and dunked a lot" it was after the hand checking rule was changed in 94'.

 

[Sinobas]

Would this also apply to teams fouling to stop the clock at the end of games?

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Would this also apply to teams fouling to stop the clock at the end of games?

Not if my version were implemented.

 

[H.C.]

The fact of the matter is it's letting poor free throw shooters off the hook when this rule is changed.
There are Middle school & High school Teams that shoot better at the FT line than some NBA players.
When this rule gets changed to stop allowing Hack-A it's going to reduce the skill level for NBA players.
It won't matter if you've put the work in to become a good FT shooter.
There are clear flaws in the form & release of a poor free throw shooter at any level of basketball.
It shows either NBA teams have not put the effort into giving these players quality shooting coaches.
Or it shows the poor FT shooters in the NBA don't care enough to figure out how to make a FT.

I will forever be against any rule change that lessens the skill level required in basketball.
I loved the change to the hand-checking rule above the FT line because it forces players to have a higher skill level to play defense. Rather than guide a player on the perimeter.
I'd argue fouling a bad FT shooter is playing defense. You still have to get the defensive rebound on a poor FT shooter.
Put the work in, become a good FT shooter.
There have been big men in the NBA that have been great FT shooters. Or have had significant improvement in their FT % year after year.
Blake Griffin for the Clippers improved, DJ hasn't.
Joel Improved for the Blazers over his career because he put in the work.

The answer is get more skilled, not look for a handout.

 

[Denny Crane]

Ok so don't answer my question. The NBA re instated zones in the 01-02 season. So "When Jordan was playing, the players drove to the hoop and dunked a lot" it was after the hand checking rule was changed in 94'.

I did answer your question. You can play a man defense that looks like a zone and is effectively a zone. We were doing that in high school in the 1970s.

Jordan dunked routinely, as did Pippen. I think Jordan dunked numerous times with all 5 celtics guarding him 5-on-1 in the '86 playoffs.

I don't know where you get the idea that dunking started when the hand check rule was changed. If anything, teams are taking way more 3 pt shots.