Next bargain-bin player?

[B-Roy]

Could he be a small-ball 4? It kind of sounds like his attitude is the problem.

If there’s anything you can take away from these past few years , it’s that non shooting non-centers will get played off the floor in the playoffs. There are currently no non-shooting wings/guards left playing rotation minutes. If we extend to the past series, we only get two: Westbrook and Giannis. Westbrook is clearly a negative, and his team ended up playing no centers because they can’t afford having two non shooters on the floor at the same time. Giannis plays next to a 3 point shooting big in Lopez, is the freaking MVP, and even played center a lot because their starting point guard can’t shoot. Oh and both teams lost 4-1.

I’ll pass on any non shooting wing. They may be an okay depth piece in the regular season, but I’d rather just develop our own non shooting wing in Nas.

 

[Buffalo Custard]

I just want this season over and done with so, hopefully, a better roster can be constructed.

Me?? Zero hope for that and next season successes. A few teams would be interested in CJ but I think we wouldn't get a net positive return. Only REAL trade value Portland has is Dame. Nobody wants a guy like Nurkic, I love him but bigs without speed and real altheticism, or 3 pt shooting (Nards!) aren't valued unless its a unicorn like Jokic. Portland is in a bad position. Feel the worst for Dame who only is getting older. Maybe 3 years, maybe, of godlike Dame. Thanks Neil. Those awful contracts...

You watch a team like Miami in awe compared to Portland's iso ball. Iso is great for a last shot at the half but isn't efficient enough to go the distance as any Blazer fan can attest. That covers Stoffence, as for the Tefence, that's a whole nother shitshow.

This. A thousand times this! The immediate future is so bleak we are reduced to discussing what scraps will be available after the Alpha predators finish feeding. How does a team have the league's highest payroll and yet so little actual talent? I can't even watch the play-offs anymore. It is just too depressing.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

This. A thousand times this! The immediate future is so bleak we are reduced to discussing what scraps will be available after the Alpha predators finish feeding. How does a team have the league's highest payroll and yet so little actual talent? I can't even watch the play-offs anymore. It is just too depressing.

Harsh! The favorite still remaining is also pretty talent-thin. Do you think we couldn't beat the Lakers if either of AD or LBJ went down?

 

[James lamphear]

For us to compete for championship we need better quality coming off bench. Our starters can usually play with anyone but come to the bench not so much.

 

[RR7]

Maybe they've been mentioned already, a few random names that could likely be cheap in the offseason, Giles, Marquesse Chriss, Thon Maker, Denzel Valentine, Georges Niang, Wesley Iwundu

 

[wizenheimer]

It's kind of interesting how he's been on 5 different teams in 6 years, including the 2 years he spent in Portland.

Perhaps not coincidentally, he shot from three point range over those years:

36%
32%
37% Portland
38% Portland
33%
31%

In his last season with us, he played 1500 minutes (by far his career high) and even started 10 games.

He's not a very good backup point guard if he can't hit threes. Which he seems to be able to do here. He seemed reasonably competent when we had him as a backup PG. He's still only 28.

We've had success in the past with boomeranging point guards (Steve Blake, Rod Strickland). Dame likes him.

I think he's exactly the kind of bargain bin guy we'd target. And by "target", I mean target like we did Stauskas or Tolliver. Pick up off the floor and blow the dust off and throw a very, very small amount at.

Napier played a lot more like a backup SG in Portland than a backup PG. His assist/turnover ratio was only 1.65 in Portland and that's horrible for a backup PG, It should be closer to 3.0 instead of well under 2.0. Maybe the best quality for a backup PG to have is to value the possession because they will rarely be dynamic enough to overcome their own turnovers

Harsh! The favorite still remaining is also pretty talent-thin. Do you think we couldn't beat the Lakers if either of AD or LBJ went down?

wut?

is that a new gauge for Portland now? 'Blazers become contenders if all the contenders lose their best player'

I get the being thin stuff. Lakers would struggle without Lebron or AD. But, Blazers would struggle without Dame. Portland has some talent, but too much of it is role-playing talent and not enough is elite. And that's true when they are fully healthy

 

[Buffalo Custard]

Harsh! The favorite still remaining is also pretty talent-thin. Do you think we couldn't beat the Lakers if either of AD or LBJ went down?

Interesting question. I honestly don't know the answer.

Let me toss a question back. If you subtract Dame and either AD or LBJ from the equation, could CJ and company beat the remaining Flakers? That question I have no doubt as to the answer - hell no!

 

[tester551]

Just to get back on track, Wes Iwundu?

Might be a good pickup.

I believe he'll be a RFA. How much do you think you'd have to offer him to get him from Orlando?

 

[kjironman1]

Harsh! The favorite still remaining is also pretty talent-thin. Do you think we couldn't beat the Lakers if either of AD or LBJ went down?

The original post is so full of statements that make you want to scratch your head

CJ but I think we wouldn't get a net positive return

Only REAL trade value Portland has is Dame

Nobody wants a guy like Nurkic

Maybe 3 years, maybe, of godlike Dame

You watch a team like Miami in awe compared to Portland's iso ball

It's like somebody doesn't watch the Blazers? The Blazers when healthy primarily are PnR dominant and the kick out looking for a three? Very rarely are true ISO.

Then to get a response like

The immediate future is so bleak we are reduced to discussing what scraps will be available after the Alpha predators finish feeding

Just seems weird? They have a mid level plus tradeable expiring contracts not only this year but next. How much more Immediate do you want to be than this year or next?
The Blazers if healthy and sporting Lillard, CJ, Nurk, Collins, Hood, Trent, Melo, Ariza, Simons, Gabriel with avenues to make trades and a way to improve will be in the mix for the next 3-4 years. Also the closer CJ gets to an expiring contract just makes their situation all the more interesting.

 

[kjironman1]

Interesting question. I honestly don't know the answer.

Let me toss a question back. If you subtract Dame and either AD or LBJ from the equation, could CJ and company beat the remaining Flakers? That question I have no doubt as to the answer - hell no!

I'll take that!
If you have the complete Blazer team healthy and the Lakers without AD and the Blazers with out Dame the Blazers win that series in 6.

 

[tester551]

For us to compete for championship we need better quality coming off bench. Our starters can usually play with anyone but come to the bench not so much.

I disagree here.
We need much more talent on the starting lineup too. If Portland could ever get the unicorn piece at forward - filling out the bench with quality players becomes much easier.

 

[wizenheimer]

Just seems weird? They have a mid level plus tradeable expiring contracts not only this year but next. How much more Immediate do you want to be than this year or next?
The Blazers if healthy and sporting Lillard, CJ, Nurk, Collins, Hood, Trent, Melo, Ariza, Simons, Gabriel with avenues to make trades and a way to improve will be in the mix for the next 3-4 years. Also the closer CJ gets to an expiring contract just makes their situation all the more interesting.

Dame will be 33 when CJ has an expiring contract. So that is interesting, but maybe not in a good way

Portland has been "in the mix" for 7 seasons now. But we've seen that means they can sometimes post a decent regular season record, and even have 1st round HCA (if they are really healthy), but eventually fail miserably in the playoffs when they meet a real contender. Blazers are in the pretender mix, not the contender mix

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Interesting question. I honestly don't know the answer.

Let me toss a question back. If you subtract Dame and either AD or LBJ from the equation, could CJ and company beat the remaining Flakers? That question I have no doubt as to the answer - hell no!

Hey, we DID subtract Dame and NOT one of the Lakers' stars for the last game - it was fairly close as I recall.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

is that a new gauge for Portland now? 'Blazers become contenders if all the contenders lose their best player'

Not really: it's more a comment on the lack of depth on the Lakers. They're very top-heavy and thus a lot more reliant on luck with injuries than, say, The Celtics.

 

[wizenheimer]

Hey, we DID subtract Dame and NOT one of the Lakers' stars for the last game - it was fairly close as I recall.

I watched that game...looked to me like the Lakers were coasting a bit and could turn it on when they wanted. It was a 15 point Laker lead with a minute left, so not that close

Not really: it's more a comment on the lack of depth on the Lakers. They're very top-heavy and thus a lot more reliant on luck with injuries than, say, The Celtics.

yeah, I get that. The Lakers are working on thin ice but the ice is holding so far

still, it was the same result for Portland when they face a contender in the playoffs....a mismatch

 

[SharpesTriumph]

I disagree here.
We need much more talent on the starting lineup too. If Portland could ever get the unicorn piece at forward - filling out the bench with quality players becomes much easier.

Yeah I agree, our starting lineup is not as good as other top western teams. Next year there will be GS as well.

We can build a great starting lineup with one slightly below average forward. The problem is we've had end of the bench quality forwards at both starting spots.

As much as I enjoyed Melo this year, at best he is a contributing 10th man in a rotation; not a quality starter. When our alternatives were NBA scrubs yes he provided value... but 10th man production should not be the goal of the offseason in our starting lineup.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Not really: it's more a comment on the lack of depth on the Lakers. They're very top-heavy and thus a lot more reliant on luck with injuries than, say, The Celtics.

I don't think the Celtics are a great example, without Tatum or Brown they would be a mess. I'd say Toronto is a better example. Even Denver has tons of depth to fill in spots 3-10; although without Murry/Jokic they'd likely have major problems just as the Lakers.

Its actually extremely rare to lose a top 2-3 player on a team and still have any chance of contending. The Warriors did it in prior years, but they are arguably the best team of all time.

 

[RR7]

Attempt 2 to get back on topic...

There's been a few mentioned, but I generally think of bargain bin as guys to sign who have been forgotten or not given a great chance, but another way we can find a bargain is through trades, and I think there could be a few teams that already start to align their books for the 21 offseason to chase Giannis and others. Of course, Olshey set us up to potentially have cap space the year prior to a good year, similar to KP I think doing the same for us previously.
So I think a good place to start is looking at who has longer salaries that they might like to get off of, and what we could get in return for helping that

 

[Cugel]

Feeding to Melo is pick and roll? Step back 3 is pick and roll? Dame driving to the hoop between a double team is pick and roll?

 

[wizenheimer]

Feeding to Melo is pick and roll? Step back 3 is pick and roll? Dame driving to the hoop between a double team is pick and roll?

as is my habit, I'll pollute the discussion with stats:

NBA pick and roll ball-handler ranking:



Blazers were best at that in the league, mainly because of Dame. The other side of that was Portland ranked 20th in the league in percentile in PnR Roll Man

another play type was isolation:




so about 1/3 of Portland's offense is PnR ball-handler and isolation. And the Blazers do really well in those two areas in terms of ppp. But if you look at individual numbers, you realize almost all of that is due to Dame.

In the playoffs, the Blazers actually upped their ppp on PnR to 1.06 but the frequency dropped by 25%

however, Portland's ppp on isolation collapsed in the playoffs dropping from 0.96 ppp to 0.66 ppp; and the frequency went up. This is the direct result of the Dame-centric defense good playoff teams employ against Portland. This supports the argument that Portland's roster is better built for the regular season, not the playoffs

 

[kjironman1]

Dame will be 33 when CJ has an expiring contract. So that is interesting, but maybe not in a good way

I don't care who we want to talk to. 33 is still prime years for most premium athletes. Just because his contract isn't expiring next year doesn't mean someone won't see it as a good run and look to fit for a year first. Then if they don't like it he can be used as an expiring the next year. What i said was every year he gets closer....

Portland has been "in the mix" for 7 seasons now.

You know as well as anyone they have not been in the mix for 7 seasons. Brandon Roy left the Blazers 8 years ago and Aldridge left in 2015. Saying they have been "In the Mix" for 7 years is just ludicrous at best and saying it over and over again doesn't make it true.

Blazers are in the pretender mix, not the contender mix

We'll see about that. I happen to believe they are much closer than most think.

Getting back to the topic of the thread- They are one good bargain player and a solid trade away from contending.

 

[Cugel]

When was the last time portland was top 10 in assists?

 

[RR7]

When was the last time portland was top 10 in assists?

2013-14. Relevance to bargain bin players?

 

[Rastapopoulos]

I don't think the Celtics are a great example, without Tatum or Brown they would be a mess. I'd say Toronto is a better example. Even Denver has tons of depth to fill in spots 3-10; although without Murry/Jokic they'd likely have major problems just as the Lakers.

For the first two rounds the Celtics were without their most expensive player.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Attempt 2 to get back on topic...

There's been a few mentioned, but I generally think of bargain bin as guys to sign who have been forgotten or not given a great chance, but another way we can find a bargain is through trades, and I think there could be a few teams that already start to align their books for the 21 offseason to chase Giannis and others. Of course, Olshey set us up to potentially have cap space the year prior to a good year, similar to KP I think doing the same for us previously.
So I think a good place to start is looking at who has longer salaries that they might like to get off of, and what we could get in return for helping that

There arent that many very bad salaries any more with 4 year contracts.

Maybe there are some players such as Harkless or Lopez that teams will give away for basically nothing.

If we could get one or two rotational players that way, and someone young on the roster takes a leap to the next level maybe we could contend.

 

[e_blazer]

I don't care who we want to talk to. 33 is still prime years for most premium athletes. Just because his contract isn't expiring next year doesn't mean someone won't see it as a good run and look to fit for a year first. Then if they don't like it he can be used as an expiring the next year. What i said was every year he gets closer....



You know as well as anyone they have not been in the mix for 7 seasons. Brandon Roy left the Blazers 8 years ago and Aldridge left in 2015. Saying they have been "In the Mix" for 7 years is just ludicrous at best and saying it over and over again doesn't make it true.



We'll see about that. I happen to believe they are much closer than most think.

Getting back to the topic of the thread- They are one good bargain player and a solid trade away from contending.

I'd insert "and avoiding major injuries to key players...while maybe a couple of the teams ahead of them suffer a year like the Blazers did this year."

 

[lawai'a]

demarcus cousins may be this year's Melo at the blazer's vet minimum career rehab center. still only 29 and a good 3pt shooter.
edit cheaper than whiteside i would imagine.

 

[wizenheimer]

You know as well as anyone they have not been in the mix for 7 seasons. Brandon Roy left the Blazers 8 years ago and Aldridge left in 2015. Saying they have been "In the Mix" for 7 years is just ludicrous at best and saying it over and over again doesn't make it true.

in the Dame/CJ era, Portland has averaged 45 regular season wins and 2.6 playoff wins. That's not the record of a contender. I'm not sure why next season would suddenly alter that trajectory and put them in the mix. But maybe I just didn't understand what you meant by mix

 

[e_blazer]

in the Dame/CJ era, Portland has averaged 45 regular season wins and 2.6 playoff wins. That's not the record of a contender. I'm not sure why next season would suddenly alter that trajectory and put them in the mix. But maybe I just didn't understand what you meant by mix

I don't see the value of averaging wins over several years. The Blazers were at 49 last year and probably would have been about the same this year absent the injuries. Good, but not good enough to win it all unless the teams ahead of them suffer injuries.

 

[blazerkor]

I just want this season over and done with so, hopefully, a better roster can be constructed.

Me?? Zero hope for that and next season successes. A few teams would be interested in CJ but I think we wouldn't get a net positive return. Only REAL trade value Portland has is Dame. Nobody wants a guy like Nurkic, I love him but bigs without speed and real altheticism, or 3 pt shooting (Nards!) aren't valued unless its a unicorn like Jokic. Portland is in a bad position. Feel the worst for Dame who only is getting older. Maybe 3 years, maybe, of godlike Dame. Thanks Neil. Those awful contracts...

You watch a team like Miami in awe compared to Portland's iso ball. Iso is great for a last shot at the half but isn't efficient enough to go the distance as any Blazer fan can attest. That covers Stoffence, as for the Tefence, that's a whole nother shitshow.

I think we would get a huge net positive return on CJ if we got him to one of the few teams that could use him and value him. The reason being is that the Dame/CJ combo is less than the sum of their talent. CJ takes possessions away from Dame and vice versa, neither are great defenders (CJ is horrible) especially guarding bigger guards, both need the ball in their hands to be effective, they just don't compliment each other at all unless were talking about giving each other praise and then they are incredibly complimentary. This team has a lot of talent actually if we cash in what value CJ has and abandon the Dame/CJ failure.

Nurk is already good but he's going to be a really effective player in this league for a while. I still think Zach has a lot to contribute as an athletic role playing big who has good form on his jumper. Nas is going to be really good. If Hood comes back he's another positive. If we can lock Gary up for a long time he is going to be the kind of contributor that helps win championships. Ariza has value both as talent now and an expiring contract. We have the MLE, all of our draft picks and supposedly Melo will sign min level contract for next season. As far as both the Stoffence and Tefence go, exchange CJ for a defensive ball hawking wing who only has to score on the break and hit wide open spot up threes. If we did that we would be able to force like 8 more turnovers a game leading to transition offense opportunities, we'd stop having constant blow buys putting our bigs in bad positions and if we did score more fast break points it would make our half court offense more potent because it wouldn't be our only scoring weapon (oh and we actually, as has been pointed out, use the p&r all of the time not iso and would iso even less without CJ).