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This guy can speak for me on any topic any time! Wondering how Trump supporters feel about this. Amazing!

 
dviss1 said:
This is a problem. Why don't you want to do anything about it?
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Partially because I don't have the energy for every cause that kills 0.0000028% of the population. Why do you think that America, and those symbols that stand for the nation, needs to be protested against (note: Not "racist cops", or "untrained police staffs", or "the culture of the ghetto imposed by local governments", or "lack of education in civics" or any of those things--all of which are problematic)? What is the (in Jim Brown's words) desecration doing to move the conversation forward or make America better? And what's the denouement of this? What action needs to happen for all these players to now say "ok, we're good now, thanks. See? Protest worked!" ?

You should join campaign zero. It's not our fault that you all aren't standing up for your unarmed white people killed by police. No worries, we'll do it for you.
https://www.joincampaignzero.org/
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I don't think that America is broken because 32 people a year die without a weapon in their hand at the hands of police, vice the 700 who die when using a weapon against police. I know that sounds callous, but averaging 95% in life-and-death split-second situations does not make America broken. I would submit that much more than 9 black men/32 people total a year die unarmed at the hands of friends and neighbors than because of police officers who every night have to go out and maybe not come back. About that 10x that many children a year die in Tampa out of outright neglect (malnutrition, left in cars, parents on drugs, etc) I guess I have a different mindset because I've been on the receiving end of not knowing which one of the million people around you might be a bad guy that at any moment wants to end you. More cops are killed by gunfire (33 so far this year) than unarmed people killed by cops.

But, a quick perusal of that Campaign Zero site is interesting...
Moreover, research shows police departments with more black officers are less likely to kill black people.
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But in the paper they reference and link to, it spells out clearly:
Increasing the proportion of the force that is black does not appear to be an effective strategy for reducing police-involved homicides of black citizens in most large cities.
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anecdotally, I work with a former policeman from Peachtree, GA. His precinct was 80% black (as is he). His precinct had one of the highest rates of lethal force used in the country. He had multiple greenlights put out on him, and after one gunfight where he came back home and the bad guy didn't Al Sharpton himself came down to protest the police and to call for his removal. I wish you could hear him tell the story. But the good Reverend didn't talk about how it was a black officer that killed a man who was shooting back at him. He made it sound like an unauthorized murder of a black man at the hands of (implied white) police. Which is good for Al Sharpton...not so good for the man who got hits put out on him because of it.

So, speaking only for myself, deaths like Philando Castile's (I don't lump in Michael Brown with him) are tragic and can be addressed through increased training, screening of candidates and reduction of policing in areas known to be dangerous. (Probably not a good policy issue, but it's an option). Yet what very little of the literature supports and what is still unclear to me is that the root cause of the 9 unarmed black men being killed a year is racism. And by doubling down on the issue to say that the deaths are due to this (non-confirmed) racism, which provides another symptom of a broken America that must be disrespected and desecrated (again, Jim Brown's words), the activist generally loses the message, if not the support of like-minded people.

As a black man and father to your son you have placed a vested interest in this issue, and you'll never hear or read of me ridiculing that. Each of us is bound to do what we can with where we're called. I might disagree that Odell Beckham lifting his leg to symbolically pee on the President or that kneeling to show contempt for the nation is the best manner with which to combat it, but I (and likely anyone you engage on the matter) would say that they would like to see unarmed deaths of anyone go to zero. I choose to focus my energies first on my city/church and on things that could have a positive measurable outcome. I can say that our food bank fed X children, or our mentorship programs kept Y kids in school, of which Z% graduated and went to college. When we were able to run our free health clinics we could say "we gave X dental exams and administered Y whole-body checkups", etc. What does desecrating the flag and stating that America is broken help to measurably make things better?
 
BTW, it's interesting to me as well that a player in SF and SEA can kneel on the field to promote a cause seen by tens of thousands at the game and millions on TV (and that is causing some disunity), but the 9th Circuit Court has ruled a coach cannot kneel if it's to pray, at least around impressionable high school kids. That games are there to root for our favorite teams, not potentially promoting disunity.

A high school football coach in Washington state has failed to persuade a federal appeals court to let him kneel and pray on the field immediately after games in sight of students and parents.
The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals on Wednesday rejected Joseph Kennedy’s request for an injunction requiring the Bremerton School District, located just outside Seattle, to reinstate him and allow his prayer.
Kennedy, a Christian, said the district violated his constitutional right to free speech under the First Amendment, including by putting him on paid leave in October 2015.
The varsity assistant coach’s prayers on the 50-yard line had often been joined by players and other coaches, including from opposing teams.
But in Wednesday’s decision, Circuit Judge Milan Smith said Kennedy went too far in trying to press his religious beliefs on “impressionable and captive” minds.
Smith said this could promote “disunity along religious lines,” undermining the role of high school football games in letting American communities gather to root for their favorite teams and for children on the field.
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https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...y-after-games-u-s-appeals-court-idUSKCN1B32B1
 
BrianFromWA said:
BTW, it's interesting to me as well that a player in SF and SEA can kneel on the field to promote a cause seen by tens of thousands at the game and millions on TV (and that is causing some disunity), but the 9th Circuit Court has ruled a coach cannot kneel if it's to pray, at least around impressionable high school kids. That games are there to root for our favorite teams, not potentially promoting disunity.
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There are some differences here - racism not religion, NFL not schools.

It would be hard to invoke separation of church and state when neither one is involved.

barfo
 
BrianFromWA said:
Why do you think that America, and those symbols that stand for the nation, needs to be protested against
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Who said it did? Are the protesters actually protesting the existence of the nation, or a particular issue?

What is the (in Jim Brown's words) desecration doing to move the conversation forward or make America better? And what's the denouement of this? What action needs to happen for all these players to now say "ok, we're good now, thanks. See? Protest worked!" ?
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I think the point of any protest is to raise awareness. Protests by themselves are not solutions, and that's not the right standard to hold them to. I think this particular protest is in fact working, although ironically enough it's really Trump who made it work. Everyone is talking about it now, and that's pretty much the goal of any protest.

I might disagree that Odell Beckham lifting his leg to symbolically pee on the President or that kneeling to show contempt for the nation is the best manner with which to combat it
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I don't know who Odell Beckham is, so can't comment on that part, but I do not agree that kneeling shows contempt for the nation. I don't think that's even remotely accurate.

barfo
 
barfo said:
Who said it did? Are the protesters actually protesting the existence of the nation, or a particular issue?
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I'm just going to start with the original, b/c like I wrote earlier, I think that this message moved from Police Brutality/Racism to Eff Drumpf. Kaepernick's protest wasn't outside a Police HQ where someone just got shot, or by putting "remember Philando" on his shoes, or by hosting a press conference to talk about his donations and why he was doing it. He said:
"When there's significant change and I feel that flag represents what it's supposed to represent, and this country is representing people the way that it's supposed to, I'll stand.
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He specifically says that he thinks America oppresses black people and people of color. Not "racists in America" or "the 1%ers" or "crooked politicians" or even "cops who target people of color". He said "America" does the oppressing, and that his lack of pride in America is going to be manifested by kneeling so that people know he has no pride in it. Until is "represents what he thinks it's supposed to." :dunno:

I think the point of any protest is to raise awareness. Protests by themselves are not solutions, and that's not the right standard to hold them to. I think this particular protest is in fact working, although ironically enough it's really Trump who made it work. Everyone is talking about it now, and that's pretty much the goal of any protest.
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It's working, you say? As many people (low # though it may be, it's still too high) are dying this year as last year. As many unarmed people are dying as last year. You're letting the media's crafted message drive you. Do you think Steph Curry was unaware until this week that you have to be careful around police? Do you think Michael Bennett's Vegas story was the first time he's had heard that cops can threaten lives? Did CNN/MSNBC/Fox not do their jobs pointing out to America that black men had been shot by policemen?


I don't know who Odell Beckham is, so can't comment on that part,
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http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/f...d-celebration-related-trump-article-1.3520250

but I do not agree that kneeling shows contempt for the nation. I don't think that's even remotely accurate.
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I guess there's a spectrum between "contempt" and "lack of pride", but now we're really parsing...
"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," Kaepernick said, via NFL.com. "To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder
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Rastapopoulos said:
While you were Googling denying the antecedent it would've helped if you also looked up Genetic Fallacy and Red Herring fallacy, because you just provided a couple of good examples.

I do see what you see in Trump: he's not capable of admitting when he's wrong either.
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How bizarre.

Here's the thing. I got what I want - NO CLINTON. I also got what I want - months and years of the sore losers suffering over it. They would corrupt the system. Cheat in the primaries. Illegal dirty tricks. Support white collar government crime against millions.

For that alone, Trump is a hero to most.

I do care what he does (a lot of it wrong or bad), and I do care that we don't allow sore losers to drive our presidents from office. Be those presidents democrat or republican. Like I said, there are 60M+ who voted for him (I didn't), most of them are sticking with him. When the next Democrat gets elected, they will be savaged by those 60M+. You started it.

It's not about supporting Trump for me. It's about seeing through the butt hurt for the Truth.

I see you post lies and call you out on it. You double down. What kind of fallacy is that?

The red herring, "Trump paid the money he promised" and the distraction: "He didn't pay some others/do you read your own fucking links?"
 
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Brutal.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/25/sports/nfl-owners-unity-protests.html

N.F.L. Owners’ Unity With Players Might Be Short-Lived

The image was striking — several owners of N.F.L. teams locking arms with their players on the sidelines Sunday in a dramatic statement of defiance to a president who ridiculed their sport and condemned players for refusing to stand during the national anthem as a protest against racism.

And then on Monday night, the league’s most prominent owner knelt with his entire team.

Beyond the appearance of unity, though, is a far different reality: The owners have done little to support players who protest to fight social injustice. A few owners have told their players that kneeling for the anthem is inappropriate.

The owners by and large are a white, conservative group of billionaires, several of them big-dollar donors to President Trump. They have generally discouraged their players, about three quarters of whom are African-American, from anything that overshadows throwing passes and making tackles.

...

While some of the owners said they support the players’ right to speak out, they also worry about a backlash and recognize that many spectators object to protests during the national anthem.



(More at the link)
 
HkxIdXk.png
 
If it were up to me, I'd simply resolve the issue by doing away with the playing of the national anthem at sporting events. It never made much sense to me to have it played at every ball game, and I certainly wouldn't miss hearing it mangled by under-talented singers straining to hit a note high enough to make dogs howl.

To me, this is an issue largely manufactured by a president sorely lacking in any deep perspective on anything other than his own ego. While some of these guys no doubt are making a stand against police violence, I'd say most are simply giving the middle finger to the ill-mannered lout who occupies the White House and who lacks the self control and thoughtfulness to try to unify rather than divide our country. I'd take a knee for that protest as well.
 
BrianFromWA said:
I'm just going to start with the original, b/c like I wrote earlier, I think that this message moved from Police Brutality/Racism to Eff Drumpf.
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Oh, there's a lot of the latter, no doubt. Drumpf likes everything to be about himself, so he did what he could to make this about himself.

Pretty sure the original point isn't lost on literally everyone, though.

Kaepernick's protest wasn't outside a Police HQ where someone just got shot, or by putting "remember Philando" on his shoes, or by hosting a press conference to talk about his donations and why he was doing it. He said:

He specifically says that he thinks America oppresses black people and people of color. Not "racists in America" or "the 1%ers" or "crooked politicians" or even "cops who target people of color". He said "America" does the oppressing, and that his lack of pride in America is going to be manifested by kneeling so that people know he has no pride in it. Until is "represents what he thinks it's supposed to." :dunno:
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Yeah, I do see your point here - although I think you are taking him a little too literally.

I said the other day that the US is stupid to not invest in infrastructure the way (I think) it should. Was that an attack on America? Am I disrespecting the flag? Do I hate America?

It's working, you say? As many people (low # though it may be, it's still too high) are dying this year as last year. As many unarmed people are dying as last year.
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Again, the point of a protest is not to solve the underlying problem. Protests aren't solutions, they are 'educational'. This particular problem isn't going to be solved in one year, even if you were to grant that there is a problem and that it could be solved.

You're letting the media's crafted message drive you.
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Huh? Drive me where?

Do you think Steph Curry was unaware until this week that you have to be careful around police? Do you think Michael Bennett's Vegas story was the first time he's had heard that cops can threaten lives?
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I don't think the point of the protest is to educate other sports stars about the subject, so I'm not sure what you mean.

Did CNN/MSNBC/Fox not do their jobs pointing out to America that black men had been shot by policemen?
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They are pretty good if there is video of the shooting, or if there is video of a riot. Not so good about statistics and analysis and thoughtful discussion of alternatives.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/f...d-celebration-related-trump-article-1.3520250
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Thanks. Not clear to me from that article he was peeing on Trump like you said.

barfo
 
HCP said:
Wondering how Trump supporters feel about this.
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Could you point to who the "Trump" supporters are?

If you mean voted for him I'll answer. I agree with most of what the old dude said. The hypocrisy of the right wingers being the most obvious truth.
 
HCP said:
This guy can speak for me on any topic any time!
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Sorry to hear to hear you could not detect the flaws. I think the old fella missed the mark with every shot.

This fella hit it with one.

"“I’m going to give you the real deal: I’m an American,” the ex-running back said. “I don’t desecrate my flag and my national anthem. I’m not going to do anything against the flag and national anthem. I’m going to work within those situations. But this is my country, and I’ll work out the problems, but I’ll do it in an intelligent manner.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-football-or-activism/?utm_term=.5451a81042fb
 
MarAzul said:
Sorry to hear to hear you could not detect the flaws. I think the old fella missed the mark with every shot.
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Are you being for real? You honestly believe he was wrong on all points? How is this possible? I can understand voting for Trump thinking he was going to mix stuff up and and make some changes, but you still can't honestly support him after everything he has said and done. Just unreal!
I served my country for people like you to have the right to free speech and to voice your opinions, but good lord.......
 
Trump needs to STFU about the NFL and get some help down to Puerto Rico.
 
HCP said:
Are you being for real? You honestly believe he was wrong on all points? How is this possible? I can understand voting for Trump thinking he was going to mix stuff up and and make some changes, but you still can't honestly support him after everything he has said and done. Just unreal!
I served my country for people like you to have the right to free speech and to voice your opinions, but good lord.......
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You don't honestly think this obvious pandering to his base changes anything do you? I love how (using dviss's narrative) people call this a dog whistle.

That word is becoming almost as irritating as mansplaining or cuck.

If it is anything it is a dog toy for CNN and the rest of the Libbos to chew on as a distraction.

Next week he'll probably tweet something about global warming or cultural appropriation to keep you all occupied.

Trump hasn't ever made me think he is a genius but he's playing with you and probably laughing his ass off doing it.
 
bodyman5000 and 1 said:
You don't honestly think this obvious pandering to his base changes anything do you? I love how (using dviss's narrative) people call this a dog whistle.

That word is becoming almost as irritating as mansplaining or cuck.

If it is anything it is a dog toy for CNN and the rest of the Libbos to chew on as a distraction.

Next week he'll probably tweet something about global warming or cultural appropriation to keep you all occupied.

Trump hasn't ever made me think he is a genius but he's playing with you and probably laughing his ass off doing it.
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You are absolutely right about that. It is an intentional distraction. But it's like an arsonist setting another fire to distract from the previous ones he set.

Yeah, you can keep everyone running around all summer, but eventually the rains come and eventually you get arrested.

barfo
 
barfo said:
You are absolutely right about that. It is an intentional distraction. But it's like an arsonist setting another fire to distract from the previous ones he set.

Yeah, you can keep everyone running around all summer, but eventually the rains come and eventually you get arrested.

barfo
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Yeah except this ain't arson. No arresting is to be done over this. Unless Mueller is getting close to dropping a bombshell this crap is what we have to look forward to for three more years. It was on the rant on Fox5 news this morning for crying out loud.

THIS is what people are getting worked up over? So sad for us.
 
bodyman5000 and 1 said:
Yeah except this ain't arson. No arresting is to be done over this. Unless Mueller is getting close to dropping a bombshell this crap is what we have to look forward to for three more years. It was on the rant on Fox5 news this morning for crying out loud.

THIS is what people are getting worked up over? So sad for us.
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That's the thing. THIS = the injustice that happens to black people in this country. The people who are getting worked up over the flag don't give a shit about the former.

THAT'S what's sad.
 
dviss1 said:
That's the thing. THIS = the injustice that happens to black people in this country. The people who are getting worked up over the flag don't give a shit about the former.

THAT'S what's sad.
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That's my entire point. Nobody gave two shits about Kaepernick. The social media twits are pissed off about Trump.

I'm not trying to imply that people care about the real issue behind the original protests, they don't.
 
bodyman5000 and 1 said:
That's my entire point. Nobody gave two shits about Kaepernick. The social media twits are pissed off about Trump.

I'm not trying to imply that people care about the real issue behind the original protests, they don't.
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Wait what? What are you talking about? Everyone gave a shit about Kaepernick. It's why he doesn't have a job right now.

My problem is that people have more of a problem with the protest than what their protesting. That's a problem in this forum and throughout the country.
 
dviss1 said:
Wait what? What are you talking about? Everyone gave a shit about Kaepernick. It's why he doesn't have a job right now.

My problem is that people have more of a problem with the protest than what their protesting. That's a problem in this forum and throughout the country.
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I didn't see it on the local news when Kaepernick did it. I don't know why he doesn't have a job, don't follow the NFL. If he's good enough to play and the ONLY reason he doesn't is because of his protest then that sucks.

That's pretty pathetic in fact. I don't know that to be true personally but if it is it just blows.

Maybe the average redneck NFL fan cares and I'm sure it was covered here and there on the news but not like this.
 
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