No Collins GM 1

[riverman]

Gabriels had a great game in our win against the Lakers at Staples Center after Kobe died...he played well next to Hassan...those two can block a ton of shots

 

[blazerkor]

"Meyers is only in his tenth season! You have to be patient with big men!"

Really good players show it from day 1 - maybe not consistently, but they show something special. Collins is the kind of guy they used to draft in the second round and pay peanuts as a 9th or 10th man. I miss the days when you could dip into the 3rd or 4th round and find legit players (eg Larry Steele or Lloyd Neal) better than the crap getting picked in round 1 today. Yes there are more teams - but there is more to it than that. Players are being drafted to damn young. If Collins had stayed in school for another 2 years, he would have been an UDFA.

I just put a list of players up there that are just 20 years of 10th picks, three of the guys that were meaningful contributors on that list did not show it from day one, including Paul George who took two seasons to really show what he had and big men tend to take even longer.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

In the 20 years up to Zach these are the 10th pick in the NBA Draft: Danny Fortson had a double double season but that was his only good healthy season put up worse numbers than Zach besides that, Paul Pierce HOFer and best guy on this list, Jason Terry who was good, Keyon Dooling was worse than Zach to this point and never did anything, Rodney White who sucked his entire but brief NBA career before playing in Europe, Caron Butler who was really good, Jarvis Hayes who was not good, Luke Jackson a local product who was really really bad in the NBA, Andrew Bynum who had a short career but was very good for a bit and had a ton of hype, Mouhamed Sene who played 47 games in the league over four seasons averaging 5 minutes a game and it wasn't because of injuries, Spencer Hawes who was not great but solid, Brook Lopez who we know about pretty good pick, Brandon Jennings who had one great season and was an OK pro, Paul George is an all-NBA two way superstar but took a little time to come up, Jimmer Fredette never made a dent in the NBA, Austin Rivers who is a starter or really good sixth man now but was a non-factor his first four seasons, CJ who is CJ so that was a hit, Elfrid Peyton who has started but isn't a bust but also wasn't a huge hit, Justice Winslow who is a solid NBA player but whose first three seasons didn't show much, Thon Maker not a real contributor but a nice idea and then Zach.

So eight complete misses, 4 all-star or better players some of whom didn't look like it after a couple of seasons, 3 really good starters and the rest are no better or worse than Zach has been if Zach gets no better. When you make statements like you can't believe that Zach was a top ten pick it undercuts the little credibility you have. These are just the number 10 picks the amount of busts 1-9 that we won't even get into is staggering. Do you know anything about the history of this league? Do you know how long it takes big guys who are not superstars but can be very solid starters to develop normally? I mean seriously man this shit you say seems to have zero context.

Good idea on how to evaluate the 10th pick. Here is a list;

Number 10

Year Player School/Country – Team

2019 Cam Reddish, Duke – Atlanta Hawks
2018 Mikal Bridges, Villanova – Phoenix Suns
2017 Zach Collins, Gonzaga – Sacramento Kings
2016 Thon Maker, Canada – Milwaukee Bucks
2015 Justise Winslow, Duke – Miami HEAT
2014 Elfrid Payton, Louisiana Layfayette – Philadelphia 76ers
2013 C.J. McCollum, Lehigh – Portland Trail Blazers
2012 Austin Rivers, UNC – New Orleans Hornets
2011 Jimmer Fredette, BYU – Milwaukee Bucks
2010 Paul George, Fresno State – Indiana Pacers

2000’s

2009 Brandon Jennings, Italy – Milwaukee Bucks
2008 Brook Lopez, Stanford – New Jersey Nets
2007 Spencer Hawes, Washington – Sacramento Kings
2006 Saer Sene, Senegal – Seattle Supersonics
2005 Andrew Bynum, St. Joseph (NJ) HS – L.A. Lakers
2004 Luke Jackson, Oregon – Cleveland Cavaliers
2003 Jarvis Hayes, Georgia – Washington Wizards
2002 Caron Butler, Connecticut – Miami HEAT
2001 Joe Johnson, Arkansas – Boston Celtics
2000 Keyon Dooling, Missouri – Orlando Magic

1990’s

1999 Jason Terry, Arizona – Atlanta Hawks
1998 Paul Pierce, Kansas – Boston Celtics
1997 Danny Fortson, Cincinnati – Milwaukee Bucks
1996 Erick Dampier, Mississippi State – Indiana Pacers
1995 Kurt Thomas, Texas Christian – Miami HEAT
1994 Eddie Jones, Temple – L.A. Lakers
1993 Lindsey Hunter, Jackson State – Detroit Pistons
1992 Adam Keefe, Stanford – Atlanta Hawks
1991 Brian Williams, Arizona – Orlando Magic
1990 Rumeal Robinson, Michigan – Atlanta Hawks

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/h...pick/history-of-the-nba-draft-pick-number-10/

 

[CupWizier]

"Meyers is only in his tenth season! You have to be patient with big men!"

Really good players show it from day 1 - maybe not consistently, but they show something special. Collins is the kind of guy they used to draft in the second round and pay peanuts as a 9th or 10th man. I miss the days when you could dip into the 3rd or 4th round and find legit players (eg Larry Steele or Lloyd Neal) better than the crap getting picked in round 1 today. Yes there are more teams - but there is more to it than that. Players are being drafted to damn young. If Collins had stayed in school for another 2 years, he would have been an UDFA.

Not really as there are several examples of players taking a couple years. Here is a pretty good comparison and Lewis became an all star.

https://stathead.com/tiny/96xpK

 

[oldmangrouch]

I just put a list of players up there that are just 20 years of 10th picks, three of the guys that were meaningful contributors on that list did not show it from day one, including Paul George who took two seasons to really show what he had and big men tend to take even longer.

If you are talking about consistency - I agree. OTOH, I would argue guys like CJ and George showed flashes from the begining. This is the opposite of Zach who is consistently "meh".

Let me put it this way - if I believed Zach could play AD to a draw 1 game out of 4 I would be more optimistic. Nobody realistic believes he can do that.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

I think we also have to consider, the 10th pick was available for us in 2017 because the Kings (and possibly other teams that could've acquired the pick), didn't think there was anybody available at #10 that made the pick worth more than #15 and #20. Other years the #10th pick may have been considered to have more value.

 

[tlongII]

or a troll.

Or Tunchi

 

[oldmangrouch]

Not really as there are several examples of players taking a couple years. Here is a pretty good comparison and Lewis became an all star.

https://stathead.com/tiny/96xpK

Interesting comparison. Lewis' numbers made a big jump from rookie to year 2, and another big jump in year 3. Is that honestly what you see for Zach? Would you bet Zach's 4th year stats will be even close to Lewis' 3rd year? (despite the fact he entered the league a year younger than Zach?)

Again, my point is not whether Lewis was inconsistent his first years. It is the difference between saying "Trent still has bad games sometimes" and saying "Zach never has really good games."

 

[CupWizier]

Interesting comparison. Lewis' numbers made a big jump from rookie to year 2, and another big jump in year 3. Is that honestly what you see for Zach? Would you bet Zach's 4th year stats will be even close to Lewis' 3rd year? (despite the fact he entered the league a year younger than Zach?)

Again, my point is not whether Lewis was inconsistent his first years. It is the difference between saying "Trent still has bad games sometimes" and saying "Zach never has really good games."

It wasn't that big of a jump in year 2. It wasn't until year 3 that he became a starter and showed significant improvement. In year 2 it was a matter of him getting more minutes. I consider this being Collins second year due to missing the majority of the season and having major shoulder surgery. Another example happened right here in our backyard as Jermaine Oneal took several years to breakout (yes I know he was behind 2 very good pf's) but he didn't do enough to make the Blazers move someone to make room for more playing time