No more proof needed than this that McMillan is bordering on Anal Retentive insanity:

[OddEnormous]

Re: No more proof needed than this that McMillan is bordering on Anal Retentive insan

This is true for just about anything that is not trivial in life, and yet, statistics are there and can give you a pretty good measure of these things.

Yes I couldn't agree more. My contention is that you can not just scream out a PER number and expect it to end the conversation, or that human opinion is no match for PER.

Much like any statistical analysis, you can either take it at face value, the ultimate truth, the Alpha and Omega or you can dig into the numbers and find out why they might be skewed one way or another.

Statistics can be just as much opinion as what your or my brain box come up with on our own.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Re: No more proof needed than this that McMillan is bordering on Anal Retentive insan

I really don't get all of the hostility towards PER. As a composite statistic that measures a player's (mostly) offensive contributions to a game, it does a pretty decent job of capturing how useful a player is relative to his peers, by normalizing for pace and per minute. It's just a tool in the toolbox for trying to objectively evaluate players.

If this composite statistic was so piss poor then it would so closely correlate with what most people assume to be the best and worst players in the league, and sometimes it can refute 'common knowledge' about a player that isn't based on facts, but merely perception (ie. the aging stars cashing in on past years of glory, or low efficiency chuckers like AI and Monta Ellis who put up fantastic per game numbers, but don't do it in a way that maximizes their team's possessions.)

 

[OddEnormous]

Re: No more proof needed than this that McMillan is bordering on Anal Retentive insan

As a composite statistic that measures a player's (mostly) offensive contributions to a game, it does a pretty decent job of capturing how useful a player is relative to his peers, by normalizing for pace and per minute. It's just a tool in the toolbox for trying to objectively evaluate players.

If this composite statistic was so piss poor then it would so closely correlate with what most people assume to be the best and worst players in the league, and sometimes it can refute 'common knowledge' about a player that isn't based on facts, but merely perception (ie. the aging stars cashing in on past years of glory, or low efficiency chuckers like AI and Monta Ellis who put up fantastic per game numbers, but don't do it in a way that maximizes their team's possessions.)

Nobody said it was piss poor. Not even me. It just is what it is. Another set of numbers that don't win the argument on their own.

It's not the ultimate truth as some would like to think. I've listed some examples why above.

Allen Iverson may be a chucker, but if he's on a bad team, what difference does it make if he's missing the shots or if his terrible teammates are?

Edit: BTW if you couldn't tell AI was a chucker the second he stepped into the NBA I think I understand why you might need PER.

 

[BGrantFan]

Re: No more proof needed than this that McMillan is bordering on Anal Retentive insan

Nobody said it was piss poor. Not even me. It just is what it is. Another set of numbers that don't win the argument on their own.

It's not the ultimate truth as some would like to think. I've listed some examples why above.

How does one "win" an opinion-based argument?

 

[LittleAlex]

Re: No more proof needed than this that McMillan is bordering on Anal Retentive insan

I think it was a bit more than that - Camby blocks many shots as well - but I do not think that he is as good a man defender as Joel or Oden are. He is more of a "weak side" shot blocker (which is still better than what we had before).

Again, I think it is very hard to argue against Nate regarding our defensive woes this year, our 3 best defenders on the team (Oden, Joel and Nic) all missed large chunks of the season.

Camby typically leaves his position to get blocks while Joel and Oden got their blocks by staying at their post, so to speak.

Since this current incarnation of the Blazers isn't very good at defensive rotations, Camby floating around to get blocks opens up the middle quite a bit.

Not really a knock on Camby. The other guys on the team need to have Camby's back when goes for a block by rotating to the middle (if possible).

 

[DaRizzle]

Re: No more proof needed than this that McMillan is bordering on Anal Retentive insan

How does one "win" an opinion-based argument?

You yell at the people who bring up significant improvements in stats...duh


way to go OddEnormous...you can yell the loudest...you must be right

 

[DaRizzle]

Re: No more proof needed than this that McMillan is bordering on Anal Retentive insan

EVERY MAJOR STAT IMPROVED WITH EVERY SINGLE PLAYER FROM THE YEAR BEFORE...
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4487/career;_ylt=Aq5mksmekQwVWcSWc4dMRBPkPaB4

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4473

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4243

Notice all FG,FT,and 3pt percentage improved too so its not just a minutes thing


Now can you get it thru your thick skull how PER with a significant increase from the year before is just fine for this argument? You must have been watching the games piss drunk

 

[OddEnormous]

Re: No more proof needed than this that McMillan is bordering on Anal Retentive insan

How does one "win" an opinion-based argument?

Considering it's an opinion I'm not sure there's ever a winner.

My point again, was that PER is not the endgame that people say/pretend/think it is.

 

[DaRizzle]

Re: No more proof needed than this that McMillan is bordering on Anal Retentive insan

Considering it's an opinion I'm not sure there's ever a winner.

My point again, was that PER is not the endgame that people say/pretend/think it is.

Nobody I think has ever said that here, at least not on this thread....stop digging your grave and figure out a way to dance around my last post. Are those stats not good enough for you either?

 

[BGrantFan]

Re: No more proof needed than this that McMillan is bordering on Anal Retentive insan

Considering it's an opinion I'm not sure there's ever a winner.

My point again, was that PER is not the endgame that people say/pretend/think it is.

I'm not sure PER was being presented as an endgame, but I'd probably rail against it as well if it flew in the face of my preconceived (and firm) opinions. Hell, I've done the same thing with other stats. I happen to like PER, probably as much as anybody on this board, but I will admit that I may be a bit too rigid in its application at times.

 

[OddEnormous]

Re: No more proof needed than this that McMillan is bordering on Anal Retentive insan

You yell at the people who bring up significant improvements in stats...duh

No you insult them and use the "crazy" emoticon.

 

[DaRizzle]

Re: No more proof needed than this that McMillan is bordering on Anal Retentive insan

No you insult them and use the "crazy" emoticon.

No dont dance around it by mentioning a emoticon...Explain......How are YOU right yet every stat diced ANY WAY YOU WANT IT says you are FACTUALLY wrong....as in not an opinion, just straight wrong.

Like I said ....explain the stats I brought up 4 or so posts ago....those are your kind of stats since you shit on PER and they still make you obviously wrong.

...but yeah, just mention the " "

What a crock....you fail, just admit it on move onto your next argument...or are you gonna be this hard headed just to try and save face

just admit youre wrong, everybody will forget in a few days........ unless I put it in my sig

 

[OddEnormous]

Re: No more proof needed than this that McMillan is bordering on Anal Retentive insan

Nobody I think has ever said that here, at least not on this thread....stop digging your grave and figure out a way to dance around my last post. Are those stats not good enough for you either?

Dance around your last post?

Someone has a rather high opinon of themselves don't they?

I wasn't aware I was under a time restriction to respond to you.

had you taken the time to breathe deeply into your lunch sack and read my responses you would have been able to answer your own question without looking at the clock watching the seconds tick away hoping I'd pay attention to you again.

Response: Those stats fall in the same boat as PER. They are just stats. They only tell us certain part of the story.

AGAIN: Stats have bias. Just like I do. their are 1000 different reasons someone's PER can increase. It is not cold hard fact/proof of anything. Ask Hollinger.

Digging my grave? Get a grip darling it's just a message board.

 

[OddEnormous]

Re: No more proof needed than this that McMillan is bordering on Anal Retentive insan

No dont dance around it by mentioning a emoticon...Explain......How are YOU right yet every stat diced ANY WAY YOU WANT IT says you are FACTUALLY wrong....as in not an opinion, just straight wrong.

Like I said ....explain the stats I brought up 4 or so posts ago....those are your kind of stats since you shit on PER and they still make you obviously wrong.

...but yeah, just mention the " "

What a crock....you fail, just admit it on move onto your next argument...or are you gonna be this hard headed just to try and save face

just admit youre wrong, everybody will forget in a few days........ unless I put it in my sig

What was that about Smoking pot again?

unless I put it in my sig

Jesus christ

Go for it you weirdo.

Edit: I mean seriously dude. LOLZ

 

[DaRizzle]

Re: No more proof needed than this that McMillan is bordering on Anal Retentive insan

Everybody please read the last 10+ posts if you want to see how hard headed OddEnourmous is....its amazing/pathetic

PER isnt a real stat apparently, cant use it for ANYTHING

I bring up "real stats"

His sample size of 20 games = relevant
My sample size of 20 games = irrelevant


"Stats tell us only a certain part of the story" and OddEnourmous tells us that part of the story is wrong because....well he watched 80% of the games, thats why

 

[BGrantFan]

Re: No more proof needed than this that McMillan is bordering on Anal Retentive insan

Everybody please read the last 10+ posts if you want to see how hard headed OddEnourmous is....its amazing/pathetic

PER isnt a real stat apparently, cant use it for ANYTHING

I bring up "real stats"

His sample size of 20 games = relevant
My sample size of 20 games = irrelevant


"Stats tell us only a certain part of the story" and OddEnourmous tells us that part of the story is wrong because....well he watched 80% of the games, thats why

I'd say he's playing you. Either that, or he's really stubborn. Either way, I don't think you're going to change his mind.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Re: No more proof needed than this that McMillan is bordering on Anal Retentive insan

To take this a different direction...

OddEnormous--this whole 'stats' argument stems from you saying that nobody on the team has improved over the previous year. (just to refresh...)

But I can't list a single player on this team that has become a better player this year than they were last year. Not a single one.

So, can you tell us what objective measures you would consider as evidence of improvement--if any--or is this statement simply your opinion based on observation?

 

[OddEnormous]

Re: No more proof needed than this that McMillan is bordering on Anal Retentive insan

His sample size of 20 games = relevant
My sample size of 20 games = irrelevant

Yes this is an argument you think one way. I think another.

that's why we're having this discussion.

Again, stats are stats. I don not accept them as the full truth.

So again

Again

Again

Again

Again

Again

Again

Again

Again

Again

Again

Again

Again

Again

Just giving me a players PER numbers as PROOF that he has improved means nothing to me when it's quite obvious that there are too many other factors that come into play THAT ARE NOT included in PER's evaluation.

BTW, It's obvious to the guy who invented it as well.

Just not to you.

 

[BGrantFan]

Re: No more proof needed than this that McMillan is bordering on Anal Retentive insan

To take this a different direction...

OddEnormous--this whole 'stats' argument stems from you saying that nobody on the team has improved over the previous year. (just to refresh...)

So, can you tell us what objective measures you would consider as evidence of improvement--if any--or is this statement simply your opinion based on observation?

Well, if the stats are seen as tainted, then all that matters is opinion. It's near-impossible to change somebody's opinion. I disagree with Odd's stance, but I can't change his opinion if he doesn't put validity into the statistics. Meh, we disagree. No need for me to be upset, is there?

 

[OddEnormous]

Re: No more proof needed than this that McMillan is bordering on Anal Retentive insan

To take this a different direction...

OddEnormous--this whole 'stats' argument stems from you saying that nobody on the team has improved over the previous year. (just to refresh...)

So, can you tell us what objective measures you would consider as evidence of improvement--if any--or is this statement simply your opinion based on observation?

Yeah, I've watched over 80% of the games from last season and this season and formed an opinion based on my life's experiences.

How do you form your opinions do you live with John Hollinger?

 

[BGrantFan]

Re: No more proof needed than this that McMillan is bordering on Anal Retentive insan

How do you form your opinions do you live with John Hollinger?

I don't, but I kinda wish I did. However did I survive in the pre-PER era?

 

[DaRizzle]

Re: No more proof needed than this that McMillan is bordering on Anal Retentive insan

(im just gonna ignore your last incoherrent post saying the same thing again, say it louder and it might be true!)


Oh....another thing....

We are comparing their PER to themselves. This isnt like we are comparing player x to player y where it is quite possible for one of those players to contribute in a way that wouldnt show in PER. We are comparing their own PER to themselves, hence the obvious, the PER's are coming from a same style of player.

I think you need some Pepto Bismol in your "gut feeling"

 

[OddEnormous]

Re: No more proof needed than this that McMillan is bordering on Anal Retentive insan

Well, if the stats are seen as tainted, then all that matters is opinion. It's near-impossible to change somebody's opinion. I disagree with Odd's stance, but I can't change his opinion if he doesn't put validity into the statistics. Meh, we disagree. No need for me to be upset, is there?

I don't not put validity into them. Stats are only PART of the story. So is circumstance, so is luck etc etc etc.

On the other side it pops out as opinion.


Please don't put this in as your sig. I'm not sure I could cope with that.

 

[OddEnormous]

Re: No more proof needed than this that McMillan is bordering on Anal Retentive insan

I don't, but I kinda wish I did. However did I survive in the pre-PER era?

 

[OddEnormous]

Re: No more proof needed than this that McMillan is bordering on Anal Retentive insan

im just gonna ignore your last incoherrent post saying the same thing again, say it louder and it might be true!

OK.

Can you do me a favor? Once you get your awesome burn sig set up...

Can you forward it to me so I can use it as mine too.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Re: No more proof needed than this that McMillan is bordering on Anal Retentive insan

Yeah, I've watched over 80% of the games from last season and this season and formed an opinion based on my life's experiences.

How do you form your opinions do you live with John Hollinger?

Calm down dude--I wasn't making any value statements one way or another. I just wanted to help clarify your position.

If your opinion is based solely on personal observation, personal interpretation of observed data, and personal life experience, then it is obvious that the only way someone could discuss these opinions with you would be if you were to provide details from your personal observations that lead you to the conclusions at which you've arrived.

Since nobody has requested these details from you--and you have not provided them--the conversation has gone nowhere.

Now to try to approach this on a rational level, based on what you have observed of, say, Jerryd Bayless, what exactly leads you to conclude that he has not improved at all this year?

 

[DaRizzle]

Re: No more proof needed than this that McMillan is bordering on Anal Retentive insan

OK.

I love it....this is textbook "save face" posting
Make nice with the other people who are shooting you down....ignoring the rational arguments I brought in the last few posts.....quoting the irrelevant parts and giving one word answers...trying to make the thread die


.....good times

 

[OddEnormous]

Re: No more proof needed than this that McMillan is bordering on Anal Retentive insan

Calm down dude

I'm very calm fella.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Re: No more proof needed than this that McMillan is bordering on Anal Retentive insan

I'm very calm fella.

OK. Your overly-aggressive reply to my simple question seemed to suggest the contrary, but since there's no real way for me to know, I'll take your word for it.

 

[OddEnormous]

Re: No more proof needed than this that McMillan is bordering on Anal Retentive insan

I love it....this is textbook "save face" posting
Make nice with the other people who are shooting you down....ignoring the rational arguments I brought in the last few posts.....quoting the irrelevant parts and giving one word answers...trying to make the thread die


.....good times

You think your arguments are rational I do not.

I think mine are, you think they are not.

I'm pretty sure that's been clear since the get go.

At least to me.