OFFICIAL AROUND THE NBA: DECEMBER 2024

[SharpesTriumph]

The Bucks defense went from 4th to 25th in team defense when Holiday was swapped for Lillard.

Yeah if I'm picking NBA players to build a contending team I'm picking Holiday over Lillard 90%+ of the time.

Now there might be a few teams where Lillard offense could be a bigger benefit to the team than Holiday defense - but that would be an unusual group of teammates. Holiday in general helps a team win at the highest level more than Lillard.

Yes the same Bucks team going from 4th to 25th swapping those - and a multi year contender to 1st round loser with those two, along with Holiday sweeping Dame head to head provides even more evidence to back that up.

 

[Phatguysrule]

The Pelicans didn't have multiple allstars - Cousins was injured. They had one (Davis) - just like the Blazers.

Jrue was an all star in 2013. And honestly he was probably robbed several years.

Nobody on our team (other than Dame) was even close.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Jrue was an all star in 2013. And honestly he was probably robbed several years.

Nobody on our team (other than Dame) was even close.

We're talking about the 2018 playoffs - Jrue wasn't in New Orleans a half decade earlier in 2013. So no - they never had another allstar that year after Cousins was injured - unless your definition of allstar includes Blazers legend Jamaal Maglorie.

Jamaal Maglorie was an allstar 3 years prior to being in Portland. So yes Brandon Roy was the leader of a Blazers team with four allstars.

 

[Phatguysrule]

We're talking about the 2018 playoffs - Jrue wasn't in New Orleans a half decade earlier in 2013. So no - they never had another allstar that year after Cousins was injured - unless your definition of allstar includes Blazers legend Jamaal Maglorie.

Jamaal Maglorie was an allstar 3 years prior to being in Portland. So yes Brandon Roy was the leader of a Blazers team with four allstars.

When I say All Star I mean a player who has been an All-Star and is still playing at that level.

Jrue was an All-Star caliber player that season and that series. He proved it by out-playing Damian Lillard both offensively and defensively in that series (as well as during the regular season, except one game in which Dame went off).

If you want to make the argument that Jrue wasn't an All-Star caliber player then we're just going to disagree.

*Edit* And if you look back we were only the 3 seed because we beat the Pelicans the last time we played them in the regular season (after Davis went out with the Pelicans leading in the 4th quarter).

 

[THE HCP]

Yeah if I'm picking NBA players to build a contending team I'm picking Holiday over Lillard 90%+ of the time.

What in god’s name am I reading here?

 

[Cugel]

You are reading the thoughts of every MIL and BOS fans and FO. You really think, if they could do it all over again, MIL would trade for Dame? Holiday can guard like 1-4 with tenacity.

 

[THE HCP]

You are reading the thoughts of every MIL and BOS fans and FO. You really think, if they could do it all over again, MIL would trade for Dame? Holiday can guard like 1-4 with tenacity.

I’m reading that if you were to build a team you would pick Holiday over Dame….. surround them with the EXACT same talent? And you just typed that “EVERY FRONT OFFICE” would do this. Are you out of your damned mind? EXACT talent and roster? FUCK OUTTA’ HERE!

 

[Cugel]

I’m reading that if you were to build a team you would pick Holiday over Dame….. surround them with the EXACT same talent? And you just typed that “EVERY FRONT OFFICE” would do this. Are you out of your damned mind? EXACT talent and roster? FUCK OUTTA’ HERE!

My reading of the original comment was: "1) you are starting a team. 2) Your first job is to pick between Dame or Jrue. Who do you go with ?" I do think Jrue would come out on top more often than not by the GMs in the league. Pure conjecture. Sorry. I love dame fwiw

 

[SharpesTriumph]

I said if I was building a team with NBA players - so it wouldn't be a team with only Dame or only Jrue - it would be a team with many NBA players to build a contender. Jrue just fits with other high level players better to create a contender. He doesn't need the ball to be effective and he can defend multiple positions. Dame wouldn't fit with a dozen stars in the NBA just as he didn't fit with CJ. Jrue fits with all of them.

 

[wizenheimer]

Holiday is the best defending PG in the NBA. Probably since the hand checking rules.

he used to be and he's still pretty good. Chris Paul, Avery Bradley, Pat Beverly, Tony Allen, Rajon Rondo were all at or close to Jrue's level as defenders. CP3 made the all-NBA-defense team 9 times; 7 times on the 1st team

The Celtics put him on Dame when they play but he's not locking Dame down anymore. Last season, in 4 games against Boston, Dame averaged 23 points with a 63% TS rate. This season, in 3 games, Dame is averaging 26-6-5 with a 59% TS rate. Holiday never locked down Dame by himself. He always had lots of help...like in the 2017-18 playoff series. But in the 7 Milwaukee games since the trade, Holiday is single-covering Dame a lot more because the Celtics have to respect Giannis. They can't give Holiday nearly as much help, and his defense on Dame isn't having the impact you're implying

career numbers - Dame 13 seasons (862 games); Holiday 16 seasons (996 games):

PER: Dame 22.3....Holiday 17.2
TS%: Dame .589....Holiday .546
FTrate: Dame .352....Holiday .182
Assist%: Dame 30.8%....Holiday 29.8%
Turnover%: Dame 11.7%....Holiday 15.2%

Winshares: Dame 113.7....Holiday 71.0
winshares/48: Dame .174....Holiday .103
BPM: Dame 4.6....Holiday 1.6
VORP: Dame 52.4....Holiday 30.1

three of those last 4 categories are cumulative. And somewhat dependent on how good the teams were. That Dame is kind of crushing Holiday while playing 3 fewer seasons and 134 fewer games on generally weaker teams is revealing. The best BPM Holiday ever posted was +3.4; and that factors in his defense. Dame has topped Holiday's career best BPM 9 times in the last 11 seasons

 

[SharpesTriumph]

When I say All Star I mean a player who has been an All-Star and is still playing at that level.

Jrue was an All-Star caliber player that season and that series. He proved it by out-playing Damian Lillard both offensively and defensively in that series (as well as during the regular season, except one game in which Dame went off).

If you want to make the argument that Jrue wasn't an All-Star caliber player then we're just going to disagree.

*Edit* And if you look back we were only the 3 seed because we beat the Pelicans the last time we played them in the regular season (after Davis went out with the Pelicans leading in the 4th quarter).

Jrue wasn't an allstar once in 7 years at New Orleans - so no I don't consider him an allstar on that team that swept Dame. Your the one who said Davis had multiple allstar teammates that season which is simply untrue.

I never argued that Jrue wasnt an allstar caliber player - thats a different statement.

The Pelicans with Anthony Davis won ONE playoff GAME in his 7 year Pelicans career including all those years with Jrue outside the Blazers sweep. They just never were very good teams. So your post about the Pelicans throwing multiple allstar level players against Dame was wrong in substance too. The Pelicans gave up all their assets for Jrue and DeMarcus Cousins (who was injured) and had little talent up and down those rosters. Not saying that Dame was on some power house squad, but once Cousins was out I might even rank Davis as having lesser teammates than what Dame had.

 

[wizenheimer]

The Bucks defense went from 4th to 25th in team defense when Holiday was swapped for Lillard.

nope...it went from 4th to 19th. And the offensive rating went up. The change in net rating went from +3.5 to +2.9. That's not a significant change considering it was Dame's 1st season and the Bucks fired the HC mid-season

I'd also point out that it wasn't just a Dame for Jrue swap. It was really a Dame for Jrue + Grayson Allen swap

 

[MickZagger]

he used to be and he's still pretty good. Chris Paul, Avery Bradley, Pat Beverly, Tony Allen, Rajon Rondo were all at or close to Jrue's level as defenders. CP3 made the all-NBA-defense team 9 times; 7 times on the 1st team

The Celtics put him on Dame when they play but he's not locking Dame down anymore. Last season, in 4 games against Boston, Dame averaged 23 points with a 63% TS rate. This season, in 3 games, Dame is averaging 26-6-5 with a 59% TS rate. Holiday never locked down Dame by himself. He always had lots of help...like in the 2017-18 playoff series. But in the 7 Milwaukee games since the trade, Holiday is single-covering Dame a lot more because the Celtics have to respect Giannis. They can't give Holiday nearly as much help, and his defense on Dame isn't having the impact you're implying

career numbers - Dame 13 seasons (862 games); Holiday 16 seasons (996 games):

PER: Dame 22.3....Holiday 17.2
TS%: Dame .589....Holiday .546
FTrate: Dame .352....Holiday .182
Assist%: Dame 30.8%....Holiday 29.8%
Turnover%: Dame 11.7%....Holiday 15.2%

Winshares: Dame 113.7....Holiday 71.0
winshares/48: Dame .174....Holiday .103
BPM: Dame 4.6....Holiday 1.6
VORP: Dame 52.4....Holiday 30.1

three of those last 4 categories are cumulative. And somewhat dependent on how good the teams were. That Dame is kind of crushing Holiday while playing 3 fewer seasons and 134 fewer games on generally weaker teams is revealing. The best BPM Holiday ever posted was +3.4; and that factors in his defense. Dame has topped Holiday's career best BPM 9 times in the last 11 seasons

Last year Holiday missed one of those games. And Lillard was held way under his average.

This year Lillard had a solid game in the first game. But the next time they played Lillard was held to 4-15 shooting with a team low of -14. While Holiday had a team high of +15 for the Celtics in a win.

Over their careers Holiday has had Lillard’s #

Holiday has a championship with Giannis. He got beat in the 1st round with Lillard.

The Bucks don’t look like a contender this year. The Celtics do.

If I were assembling a team I’d have a guy Holiday over Lillard. He’s a proven winner.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Jrue wasn't an allstar once in 7 years at New Orleans - so no I don't consider him an allstar on that team that swept Dame. Your the one who said Davis had multiple allstar teammates that season which is simply untrue.

I never argued that Jrue wasnt an allstar caliber player - thats a different statement.

The Pelicans with Anthony Davis won ONE playoff GAME in his 7 year Pelicans career including all those years with Jrue outside the Blazers sweep. They just never were very good teams. So your post about the Pelicans throwing multiple allstar level players against Dame was wrong in substance too. The Pelicans gave up all their assets for Jrue and DeMarcus Cousins (who was injured) and had little talent up and down those rosters. Not saying that Dame was on some power house squad, but once Cousins was out I might even rank Davis as having lesser teammates than what Dame had.

I'm not sure what to tell you. I explained to you exactly what I meant. I considered Drew an All-Star caliber player. I find it strange that you wouldn't consider him an All-Star caliber player even though he had already made the All-Star game and was playing at the same level. But whatever. We can disagree on that.

Fact is, Jrue showed throughout the regular season thar he was an incredibly tough matchup for Dame.

Portland had nobody on the team (other than Dame) who had as much of an impact as Davis, Jrue, or arguably even Rondo (a four-time All-Star).

The Pelicans had trouble winning because Davis kept getting injured. But the Pelicans were loaded that season when healthy, and even without cousins.

If you got a bad draw on the west you ran into the Warriors. And Davis missed a lot of every season so they typically got a bad draw and ran into the warriors. I think they only made the playoffs twice with Jrue.

My point was that they were a bad matchup for Portland. Portland only beat them that season when Davis was injured, in eight games.

I'll gladly stand by my point.

Either way, I wasn't at all surprised we lost to them in the playoffs that year. They were definitely a better team than we were when they were healthy.

 

[wizenheimer]

Last year Holiday missed one of those games. And Lillard was held way under his average.

This year Lillard had a solid game in the first game. But the next time they played Lillard was held to 4-15 shooting with a team low of -14. While Holiday had a team high of +15 for the Celtics in a win.

Over their careers Holiday has had Lillard’s #

Holiday has a championship with Giannis. He got beat in the 1st round with Lillard.

The Bucks don’t look like a contender this year. The Celtics do.

If I were assembling a team I’d have a guy Holiday over Lillard. He’s a proven winner.

lol...ok

if Jrue was the best player on a team...they are in the lottery. If Dame is the best on a team, they are in the playoffs 8 straight years. Jrue is the player you add after you already have a core with a couple of players at Dame's level. That's what Milwaukee did; and what Boston did

 

[MickZagger]

lol...ok

if Jrue was the best player on a team...they are in the lottery. If Dame is the best on a team, they are in the playoffs 8 straight years. Jrue is the player you add after you already have a core with a couple of players at Dame's level. That's what Milwaukee did; and what Boston did

In a league where if you actually play defense you win championships. I take the guy who is a lock down defender. I’ve always valued defense because it’s a league where it’s not played.

Scoring is one of the easiest things to replace in the NBA.

 

[MickZagger]

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/best-team-defensive-rating-nba-playoffs-2021

They won the championship that year.

 

[wizenheimer]

In a league where if you actually play defense you win championships. I take the guy who is a lock down defender. I’ve always valued defense because it’s a league where it’s not played.

Scoring is one of the easiest things to replace in the NBA.

I think that is malarkey

CJ can score; Simons can score; Norm Powell is averaging 24 points; De'Aron Fox is averaging 26.4 points and his team is 12th seed in the West. Two years ago Donovan Mitchell averaged 28 points and his team got beat 4-1 in the first round

The Bucks, with Jrue, won a championship when Giannis and Middleton were healthy in the playoffs. The following season, when Middleton was injured, the Bucks got beat in the 2nd round. The season after that, when Giannis was hobbled and missed games, the Bucks were a 1st round exit. Jrue played in all of those games, but the Bucks didn't go anywhere without a healthy Giannis and Middleton. Jrue was a supporting player in Milwaukee, not a star

that's the thing: yeah there are plenty of scorers. But there are only a few #1 and #2 options that stress a defense enough to cause adjustments. Dame is one of those players. Jrue isn't, not by a long shot

 

[MickZagger]

I think that is malarkey

CJ can score; Simons can score; Norm Powell is averaging 24 points; De'Aron Fox is averaging 26.4 points and his team is 12th seed in the West. Two years ago Donovan Mitchell averaged 28 points and his team got beat 4-1 in the first round

The Bucks, with Jrue, won a championship when Giannis and Middleton were healthy in the playoffs. The following season, when Middleton was injured, the Bucks got beat in the 2nd round. The season after that, when Giannis was hobbled and missed games, the Bucks were a 1st round exit. Jrue played in all of those games, but the Bucks didn't go anywhere without a healthy Giannis and Middleton. Jrue was a supporting player in Milwaukee, not a star

that's the thing: yeah there are plenty of scorers. But there are only a few #1 and #2 options that stress a defense enough to cause adjustments. Dame is one of those players. Jrue isn't, not by a long shot

Because none of those teams could play defense. Defense is king in the NBA.

 

[Cugel]

Nobody is saying Jrue is "better" than Dame. Rather whose skill set is a better foundation for a roster. Dame is a HOF'er. Very different players. Just because Jrue doesn't shut down Dame 100% of the time is missing the point.

 

[wizenheimer]

Because none of those teams could play defense. Defense is king in the NBA.

Denver won when they were 15th in defense. The Warriors won when they were 11th one year. Cleveland won when they were 11th. Teams have won with a top-10 offense as much as they have with a top-10 defense. What matters is have a good balance of both. Milwaukee won the championship when they were healthy and had the top defense and 6th best offense and 10th best defense. They were a 1st round exit when they had the 4th best defense and the 12th best offense

 

[SharpesTriumph]

lol...ok

if Jrue was the best player on a team...they are in the lottery. If Dame is the best on a team, they are in the playoffs 8 straight years. Jrue is the player you add after you already have a core with a couple of players at Dame's level. That's what Milwaukee did; and what Boston did

I can agree with this statement but still believe Jrue is the superior player.

The goal of constructing an NBA team is to eventually win a title. At least I consider that the main goal, maybe your different. Pair Jrue with another star and they can contend. Pair Dame with a star and most likely they are my turn your turn DameCJ duo.

If you want to build a playoff loser then yeah Dame could probably drag a team further as the main option better than Jrue.

If you want to win a title - Jrue is superior.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Now there might be a few star duos that Dame would pair better than Jrue. But I stand with my earlier statement that 90%+ of contending rosters would be better served with Jrue. That's why every contender was interested in acquiring him and we traded him in a few days - while Dame took over 3 months to find a deal even with a public trade demand.

 

[riverman]

Indy waived Moses Brown today...the guy has played for 8 teams in his 5 years in the league...just can't stick

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Indy waived Moses Brown today...the guy has played for 8 teams in his 5 years in the league...just can't stick

Glad he's not on our roster - I prefer Duop.

Only end of the bench guy I want back is Watford. Never made sense to give him up. I swear he'd be better for us right now than Grant most nights. I wonder if the rumor of him sleeping with Dame ex is true.

 

[Cugel]

Glad he's not on our roster - I prefer Duop.

Only end of the bench guy I want back is Watford. Never made sense to give him up. I swear he'd be better for us right now than Grant most nights. I wonder if the rumor of him sleeping with Dame ex is true.

Watford is doing alright in BKN

 

[andalusian]

Teams rarely win when they build around small, defense challenged guards who need the ball in their hands. The exception to the rule is gsw where steph is the best shooter ever and can play both on and off the ball.

With that in mind, building a championship roster is easier when your PG is an all-nba defensive player who is not a detriment to the offense. You can spend your NBA money on bigger, dominant offensive players.

Given that, history has shown that having someone like jrue next to a dominant bigger offensive player (Giannis, jt) is a good champion recipe.

You simply need more next to a guy like Dame to do the same, it is basically a super dominant defensive team like GSW which also can move the Dame like player (steph) to play off the ball, so it is much harder to shut down.

As good as Dame is, Steph is simply better, because he is so effective just running off screens as he is with the ball.

 

[Strenuus]

When I say All Star I mean a player who has been an All-Star and is still playing at that level.

Jrue was an All-Star caliber player that season and that series. He proved it by out-playing Damian Lillard both offensively and defensively in that series (as well as during the regular season, except one game in which Dame went off).

If you want to make the argument that Jrue wasn't an All-Star caliber player then we're just going to disagree.

*Edit* And if you look back we were only the 3 seed because we beat the Pelicans the last time we played them in the regular season (after Davis went out with the Pelicans leading in the 4th quarter).

Jrue is one of the best two way players in this generation. He's not the best, but one of. Anyone saying he's not an Allstar is just laughable.

 

[KingSpeed]

you don't know that. It might be true; it might not

Jrue was on a championship team in Milwaukee, but he played with MVP and DPOY Giannis; a healthy 29 year old 3-time all-star Middleton; and, at the time, an All-NBA-Defense C in Lopez

the year after the Bucks won the championship, they lost in the conference semi's when Middleton was hurt and couldn't play. The following season was a 1st round exit when Giannis was hobbled. Jrue didn't propel the Bucks to any notable playoff success those two years.

in last year's championship, he played with Tatum and Brown. In his time in the NBA, Jrue has played with Andre Iguodala, Lou Williams, Anthony Davis, Tyreke Evans, Demarcus Cousins (before the injury), Rajon Rondo, Julius Randle, Giannis, Khris Middleton, Brook Lopez, Jayson Tatum, and Jalen Brown. Those guys have combined for 36 all-star game appearences

Dame, in his prime, never played with guys like Giannis, Middleton, Tatum, Brown....hell, he never even played with a guy like Jrue. For 8 straight seasons, when he was 25-32 years old, the best player, arguably, Dame played with was CJ

Carmelo too. I agree Jrue is better than Dame in terms of playoff success. I mean we have it on tape. Jrue swept Dame. It wasn’t close. Yes, Jrue had Davis but Jrue is the reason they won the series and Dame has a 3rd seed roster.

As for Giannis, Middleton, Lopez, Tatum, and Brown: none of them have won a title without Jrue. And they had many chances.

 

[BigGameDamian]