Outlaw the Scapegoat Thread

[PapaG]

Why? He was in our closing lineup (Jack, Roy, Jones, Outlaw, LMA) all last season. He can obviously play well with the starters. Why do you have a problem with him starting? We have to figure out who will be our point in the closing minutes. Steve Blake hardly ever played down the stretch. I'm hoping Bayless starts and finishes. And soon.

The answers I derived from last night all included a criticism of Outlaw "just standing still". Umm, Martell Webster is pretty much a spot-up shooter in this offense, isn't he?

 

[number 10]

I can't wait for the anger that we'll see from some posters here.

There's no anger, just criticism of a player whose style of play some feel doesn't contribute to a winning team.

If 18 pts (8-15)/4 rebs/2 assists is worthy of criticism

Outlaw's favorite shot, the contested jumper a step in from the 3 point line, is the "bad process." A good outcome, like 8-15 last night, doesn't make it a good process (a good shot).

I imagine we'll see a full-fledged meltdown from posters here who literally could not get a decent shot off against Outlaw in real life.

Utterly irrelevant.

 

[KingSpeed]

Another thing people forget is that Outlaw is a damn good three point shooter. He shot 40% from the arc last year. He may be our best three point shooter on the whole team. He hit a couple wide open threes last night. Should he have passed them up?

 

[KingSpeed]

There's no anger, just criticism of a player whose style of play some feel doesn't contribute to a winning team.

Outlaw's favorite shot, the contested jumper a step in from the 3 point line, is the "bad process." A good outcome, like 8-15 last night, doesn't make it a good process (a good shot).


Utterly irrelevant.

Ridiculous. He hit wide open threes and then made some pressure shots because THAT IS ALL THE LAKERS WERE GIVING US.

 

[PapaG]

There's no anger, just criticism of a player whose style of play some feel doesn't contribute to a winning team.

Outlaw's favorite shot, the contested jumper a step in from the 3 point line is the "bad process." A good outcome, like 8-15 last night, doesn't make it a good process (a good shot).

First of all, if having a player who actually doesn't wilt in the 4th quarter and who was a heavy contributer to one of the best teams in the league in terms of games decided by 5 points or less isn't a positive, there is no reason for us to have a discussion. I've posted all of the 4th quarter stats for the team and for Outlaw in the completely stupid "Kyle Lowrey for Travis Outalw" threads on BBF.

Your opinion mean jack squat compared to actual production. Hmm, your bias or the stats/coaching staff.

 

[PapaG]

Another thing people forget is that Outlaw is a damn good three point shooter. He shot 40% from the arc last year. He may be our best three point shooter on the whole team. He hit a couple wide open threes last night. Should he have passed them up?

Yes, because his "favorite shot" is a contested 22' jumper, which he makes quite regularly. He was hurting the team taking/making open 3s!!

 

[number 10]

Ridiculous. He hit wide open threes and then made some pressure shots because THAT IS ALL THE LAKERS WERE GIVING US.

I'm not talking specifically about last night, more in general. Last night was an offensive debacle however you look at it, there's not much point in analyzing it given that just about everything went wrong.

 

[number 10]

First of all, if having a player who actually doesn't wilt in the 4th quarter and who was a heavy contributer to one of the best teams in the league in terms of games decided by 5 points or less isn't a positive, there is no reason for us to have a discussion. I've posted all of the 4th quarter stats for the team and for Outlaw in the completely stupid "Kyle Lowrey for Travis Outalw" threads on BBF.

Your opinion mean jack squat compared to actual production. Hmm, your bias or the stats/coaching staff.

A more efficient player (and a better offense) might actually hold a lead of more than 5 points. And I'm not arguing that he can't score, is utter crap, or anything at all like that. He's just a fairly inefficient scorer on a team that I assumed had better options.

Yes, because his "favorite shot" is a contested 22' jumper, which he makes quite regularly. He was hurting the team taking/making open 3s!!

He doesn't make it regularly enough for it to be an efficient shot.

 

[PapaG]

And I'm not arguing that he can't score, is utter crap, or anything at all like that.

Then this thread wasn't created for you. I've pointed out many times that Travis is paid to score, which he does fairly well for someone who just turned 24 and was as raw as they come out of HS. That is his role, and it may not always be efficient. But it is his role.

 

[number 10]

Then this thread wasn't created for you. I've pointed out many times that Travis is paid to score, which he does fairly well for someone who just turned 24 and was as raw as they come out of HS. That is his role, and it may not always be efficient. But it is his role.

So how do you think Outlaw is going to improve? He's 24, I think it's fairly clear that he's never going to be a Maggette style slasher. He's a jump shooter who's TS% isn't very good, that's not a good role player.
My biggest disappointment with him this pre-season was the fact that his game hasn't changed at all. If he was attacking the hoop a la Bayless but still turning it over a lot, I could understand the "raw" argument, even after 6 years. But his game is deep jumpers, and the Blazers already take too many.

 

[STOMP]

That's a fundamental difference between us. I disagree. If you want to say "better scorer", fine. It'll be hard to substantiate any claims further than that, like "better shooter", "better passer", "better rebounder", or "better defender".

well he did get a lot more rebounds per minute then Webster last year. He got a lot more steals and blocks too. He also shot a higher percentage from the field, the free throw line, and from 3's. He got to the free throw line a whole lot more. But his hands down advantage over Martell is being able to get a good look at the hoop at will even when the clock is winding down.

Both of their defense leaves a lot to be desired and both have less then ideal mental makeups. Travis doesn't have the greatest court sense while MW has issues with the yips/confidence. These are probably the main reason I've my fingers crossed with Batum's development.

STOMP

 

[RISE WITH IT]

Bring back Reuben Patterson.....Jk, I like Outlaw. Even if you start Batum, I think Outlaw is still the better player right NOW. Stop blaming Travis, Blake, or even Nate. Did anyone notice our big 3 (two) weren't ready to play last night.

 

[PapaG]

Any contributions tonight?

Didn't think so...

 

[BrianFromWA]

Lemme guess...you thought the contested 22' 2pt jumper was a good shot?

I'm super-glad he had the confidence to take it with time running down on the clock, and super-glad he made it, but if you're going to continue spouting that I'm wrong for criticizing his shot selection, we'll have to just disagree on it.

For the record...I have been quite appreciative of the hustle and improved defense Travis has shown this year, but he is wildly inconsistent at it. He had a great rebound game (12 or 13 or something), peppered in with a bunch of 3/4/5/6 rebound games. Today he seemed to crash the boards and 'get after it". I've counted 3 of our 10 games where he's been like that. When he is, I think he's a great addition to our team. What you won't get me to say (yet) is that he's a better fit for our team than Martell.

BTW...As I've posted a bunch in here, I think when Webs gets back it's Sergio/Rudy/Webs/Outlaw on the White Unit, with Frye riding pine with Bayless.

 

[PapaG]

Lemme guess...you thought the contested 22' 2pt jumper was a good shot?

Considering it was on a bail-out feed from Roy and at the shot-clock buzzer, it was AN INCREDIBLE SHOT. DERRRRRRRRRRR

 

[bodyman5001]

I love OUTLAW.

Frye needs to go.

When you have a Ferrari (outlaw) and you can only have one more car you don't buy a used Corvette (frye)

You get something rugged or usable like a Range Rover or a nice Mercedes.

What I am saying is that we don't need guys with the same skill at every position.

 

[MrJayremmie]

Outlaw has improved his defense and rebounding.

He is still a pretty good mid-range shooter, but he has poor shot selection. He is pretty clutch, but still not a passer.

He is a good 2nd unit player that should be gettin' minutes in the mid-to-high 20s.

His offense is somewhat the same, but the other end of the court is what i'm pleased with. He needs to keep adding things like this, and understand that there is more to the game than "getting my shots" like he was talking about in the off-season. So far, I like how he is playing. If he keeps playing like this, it would be a mistake to trade him because we would miss what he brings. But if he goes back to just bringing... a guy who everytime he touches the ball takes one dribble into the defense (won't shoot open shots) jumps and shoots a jumper at a 40ish percent clip, you can find those guys all over the place.

That is what I think. It would be silly to say that Outlaw is the scapegoat for anything though. No one player is responsible for a loss. You win and lose as a team.

 

[roydezlaw]

So how do you think Outlaw is going to improve? He's 24, I think it's fairly clear that he's never going to be a Maggette style slasher. He's a jump shooter who's TS% isn't very good, that's not a good role player.
My biggest disappointment with him this pre-season was the fact that his game hasn't changed at all. If he was attacking the hoop a la Bayless but still turning it over a lot, I could understand the "raw" argument, even after 6 years. But his game is deep jumpers, and the Blazers already take too many.

Wow! You stop learning at 24? It looks like you only have 3 yrs left to learn what you need to know. Travis has improved every year and to say he will never do something and his game hasn't changed is ludicrous. His defense keeps getting better as is his tracking down big rebounds when we need them most. His 3pt shooting keeps improving. We've seen big blocks and steals when we really need them. You notice Travis, Roy, Fernadez and Oden(last 2) on the floor late in games. The others become invisible.

 

[STOMP]

So how do you think Outlaw is going to improve? He's 24, I think it's fairly clear that he's never going to be a Maggette style slasher. He's a jump shooter who's TS% isn't very good, that's not a good role player.
My biggest disappointment with him this pre-season was the fact that his game hasn't changed at all. If he was attacking the hoop a la Bayless but still turning it over a lot, I could understand the "raw" argument, even after 6 years. But his game is deep jumpers, and the Blazers already take too many.

time to update your take with today's facts. With Martell out Travis has taken over more of that easier spread the court role and predictably his TS% has gone up to a respectable 0.529. He's 5th on the club right behind Roy who's at 0.532. By all means keep siting TS% as a true reflection of offensive value as we all know that Joel is one of the best offensive players in the league as his 4th best league wide TS% of 0.718 testifies.

Complaining about having a jump shooter who is only hitting 55% of his 3's seems pretty misdirected to me especially now that Oden is finally back on the court providing a low post threat. Travis's footwork on D has improved so much that Nate has him defending guards in the 4th quarter. He also has added a semblance of a handle the last couple seasons. I'm struggling to see how one could say that his game hasn't changed.

STOMP

 

[BrianFromWA]

Here's a point that will probably be dismissed b/c I'm a "Travis Hater"...

Anyone else pick up on the fact that in crunch time, Travis was guarding Telfair and Miller was guarded by Blake? (I'm not talking about isolated switches, I'm talking about extended and multiple possessions--thanks to EnglandDan for the reminder). It's not b/c Blake is amazing at guarding mobile SFs spot shooters, but b/c OUtlaw got lost for 3 wide-open 3's for Miller in the MInny home game last week.

In 30 mpg, he's averaging 1 offensive rpg (and 5 total). Heavily involved in that average is his monster 13 rebound game that is slightly skewing the stat, but that's cool...I won't hold it against him. Yes, he's shooting 55% on 3's, which is amazing. I'm happy for it. He's a good 3-pt shooter...whatever you want me to say. But his 2pt% is 23-68 (33%). Just as a point of reference, "Horrible shooter Sergio" is shooting 60% from inside the 3pt line. Channing Frye is shooting 22-54 (42%) from 2pt range. Travis is shooting 80% from FT, but he's also only getting to the line 2 times per game.

So to recap: I don't think "Travis sucks". I don't think "when we lose, he's the scapegoat". I see improvement in him in his 3pt% and his willingness to take a step back to make his jumper a 3 rather than a "toe-on-the-line 2". I see that, in certain games, he's been quite impressive at crashing the boards and having defensive energy.

But you're sticking your head in the sand if you don't admit he's been horrible in his selection/execution of 2pt shots. He's had games where he's disappeared from rebounding. He's had to be switched off of defensive assignments b/c he seemingly can't stay with his man, who burns us for open 3pt shots.

This issue won't be resolved until Webster gets back, but my personal opinion is that Webster is the more complete player, and given Travis' opportunity to be a me-first gunner on the second unit could be even better than Travis. I think that Travis is better for this team than Frye, especially since Frye's a finesse backup. Travis (and to some extent, Diogu) can manage the backup PF role pretty competently. If all Travis does is take Frye 16mpg and then split his 30mpg right now 8/22 with Webster, there'll be 24mpg for Travis and 22 mpg for Webster when he gets back.

 

[number 10]

time to update your take with today's facts. With Martell out Travis has taken over more of that easier spread the court role and predictably his TS% has gone up to a respectable 0.529. He's 5th on the club right behind Roy who's at 0.532. By all means keep siting TS% as a true reflection of offensive value as we all know that Joel is one of the best offensive players in the league as his 4th best league wide TS% of 0.718 testifies.

Complaining about having a jump shooter who is only hitting 55% of his 3's seems pretty misdirected to me especially now that Oden is finally back on the court providing a low post threat. Travis's footwork on D has improved so much that Nate has him defending guards in the 4th quarter. He also has added a semblance of a handle the last couple seasons. I'm struggling to see how one could say that his game hasn't changed.

STOMP

I posted that two weeks ago. If Outlaw continues shooting the 3 at this rate, obviously I'll be thrilled. We still haven't played enough games to tell if it's for real or not. Also, TS% needs to be taken in context - it means much more for a perimeter player than for a garbage big man.

Wow! You stop learning at 24? It looks like you only have 3 yrs left to learn what you need to know. Travis has improved every year and to say he will never do something and his game hasn't changed is ludicrous. His defense keeps getting better as is his tracking down big rebounds when we need them most. His 3pt shooting keeps improving. We've seen big blocks and steals when we really need them. You notice Travis, Roy, Fernadez and Oden(last 2) on the floor late in games. The others become invisible.

Expecting players to significantly improve after 6 years in the league is fools gold. Sure, there'll be the occasional Nash, but waiting for the exception to the rule is a bad strategy.

Also - what BrianfromWA said

 

[PapaG]

He's had to be switched off of defensive assignments b/c he seemingly can't stay with his man, who burns us for open 3pt shots.

Totally false, and if you read Quick's article on Oden/Outlaw in today's Oregonian, you will see that Nate's own comments render your entire opinion useless.

We all know you can't stand Outlaw, but making things up to support your side of the argument, when comments from the coach were available today to quash your point, makes you pretty much useless in any discussion related to Outlaw.

 

[PapaG]

Expecting players to significantly improve after 6 years in the league is fools gold. Sure, there'll be the occasional Nash, but waiting for the exception to the rule is a bad strategy.

Also - what BrianfromWA said

Again, read the top of the fold story by Quick in today's Oregonian, read what Nate says about Outlaw, and then get back to me.

 

[STOMP]

Here's a point that will probably be dismissed b/c I'm a "Travis Hater"...

Anyone else pick up on the fact that in crunch time, Travis was guarding Telfair and Miller was guarded by Blake? (I'm not talking about isolated switches, I'm talking about extended and multiple possessions--thanks to EnglandDan for the reminder). It's not b/c Blake is amazing at guarding mobile SFs spot shooters, but b/c OUtlaw got lost for 3 wide-open 3's for Miller in the MInny home game last week.

I noticed Travis was guarding Foye and Telfair was mostly on the bench in crunch time. He was playing well off of him and doubling down hard on Jefferson who had been killing. Blake or Travis could stay with Miller, but Travis wouldn't have been able to double off of him and help with Big Al.

In 30 mpg, he's averaging 1 offensive rpg (and 5 total). Heavily involved in that average is his monster 13 rebound game that is slightly skewing the stat, but that's cool...I won't hold it against him. Yes, he's shooting 55% on 3's, which is amazing. I'm happy for it. He's a good 3-pt shooter...whatever you want me to say. But his 2pt% is 23-68 (33%). Just as a point of reference, "Horrible shooter Sergio" is shooting 60% from inside the 3pt line. Channing Frye is shooting 22-54 (42%) from 2pt range. Travis is shooting 80% from FT, but he's also only getting to the line 2 times per game.

So to recap: I don't think "Travis sucks". I don't think "when we lose, he's the scapegoat". I see improvement in him in his 3pt% and his willingness to take a step back to make his jumper a 3 rather than a "toe-on-the-line 2". I see that, in certain games, he's been quite impressive at crashing the boards and having defensive energy.

But you're sticking your head in the sand if you don't admit he's been horrible in his selection/execution of 2pt shots. He's had games where he's disappeared from rebounding. He's had to be switched off of defensive assignments b/c he seemingly can't stay with his man, who burns us for open 3pt shots.

This issue won't be resolved until Webster gets back, but my personal opinion is that Webster is the more complete player, and given Travis' opportunity to be a me-first gunner on the second unit could be even better than Travis. I think that Travis is better for this team than Frye, especially since Frye's a finesse backup. Travis (and to some extent, Diogu) can manage the backup PF role pretty competently. If all Travis does is take Frye 16mpg and then split his 30mpg right now 8/22 with Webster, there'll be 24mpg for Travis and 22 mpg for Webster when he gets back.

we shall see Travis Hater, we shall see Of course I think you've got your head a certain somewhere if you think that Martell has been anything but disappointing on defense thus far or that his offense is anything inspiring or worth banking on. He's an average sized wing with average athleticism... he's had lots of opportunities, mediocre (at best) results and a pretty flat growth curve. He has struggled with self confidence issues.

Here's hoping that Batum continues to seem like he's going to leapfrog both of them. To my eyes he's got the best feel for the game, all around skills and defense already. I wouldn't be surprised to see Martell regain his starting position when he comes back, but NB is my best guess for who starts 2009-10

STOMP

 

[number 10]

Again, read the top of the fold story by Quick in today's Oregonian, read what Nate says about Outlaw, and then get back to me.

you bolded the wrong part of my quote.

"I said last year, when we had to make the decision on James Jones, that having Martell (Webster) and Travis at the three ... I liked that. I think they both have the ability to move their feet and they are quick enough and long enough that if they commit to it, they can be good defenders. And tonight, Travis wanted that assignment and he did a nice job. He focuses when he has assignments like that."

I see a bunch of hypotheticals, followed by Nate talking about a single game. Get back to me when he puts together a season of improved defense and smart shots. Hell, he hasn't even managed 10 games of solid defense.

Also, citing fluff stories to prove that a certain player has untapped potential is only going to set you up for disappointment.

 

[PapaG]

you bolded the wrong part of my quote.


I see a bunch of hypotheticals, followed by Nate talking about a single game. Get back to me when he puts together a season of improved defense and smart shots. Hell, he hasn't even managed 10 games of solid defense.

Also, citing fluff stories to prove that a certain player has untapped potential is only going to set you up for disappointment.

Really?

While Outlaw has long solidified his reputation as a late-game performer, he has never been known as a defensive weapon. But this season McMillan has put Outlaw on the Lakers' Kobe Bryant, Houston's Tracy McGrady and Miami's Dwyane Wade. Would McMillan have thought of doing that two seasons ago?

"No," McMillan said. "But I was hoping it would become this."

Gee, looks like it took six years of experience for Travis' coach to put him in a "stopper" position. As I said, get back to me on your "fool's gold" comments, unless Nate is a fool?

As for a "fluff" article, what do you expect at this point? The team is 6-4 and is again winning close games with Outlaw in at the end.

 

[STOMP]

I posted that two weeks ago.

so are you saying that you are wrong about him not developing? I'm not sure what two weeks has to do with that... you seemed to be saying he never would. I listed many facets of the game that he's improved on in recent seasons.

If Outlaw continues shooting the 3 at this rate, obviously I'll be thrilled. We still haven't played enough games to tell if it's for real or not.

No one expects Travis to continue to shoot the 3 at this rate. He would be the greatest 3 point shooter ever if that were the case. But it's looking like last years solid 40% wasn't a fluke as many here had suggested... it almost seems like with more opportunities he's more able to find his groove. Regardless, 40%... 55%, at some point we're just going to have to accept that dude can shoot it from deep. When will that be exactly?

STOMP

 

[BrianFromWA]

I don't have a bunch of time, and I'll come back to this later, but a couple of things pop out.

I'll listen to Nate without thinking when he stops telling newspapers that Taurean Green will win us 4 games last year. If you don't want to look at objective evidence, fine. I won't stop you. I hardly think that my opinion is rendered "useless" by what Nate tells Quick.

He also put Outlaw on Miller during the Minnesota game at home. After Miller torched us for 3 wide-open 3's, he was promptly taken off Miller. He didn't guard Miller during just about the entire second half yesterday.

You don't comprehend well if you think I can't stand Outlaw. Please read my last post. I devoted over half of it to the opposite of "not standing Outlaw".

Last year in, iirc, the last L*ker game, K*be was being guarded by Webs (who drew the "stopper" assignment, I guess) for 2 1/2 quarters. K*be had 9 points. Travis was brought in I can only assume for offensive purposes, and was put on K*be. He ended up with 38, I think.

Please, all I ask is that you dispute what I say, instead of saying I make things up. Did I make up the 23-68 stat? Did I make up his rebounding numbers? Did I make up what the man he was defending did? You said "totally false", but I was 15 rows up watching Miller hit open three after open three while Travis was out of position. Was it b/c Nate told him to double Jefferson? Maybe, I don't know. I'm not in the huddle. But Miller DID hit wide-open threes while being Travis' assignment. I just posted I thought it was interesting that we put a 6'3 guy on Miller for most of the second half, and Travis on a non-shooting threat PG.

 

[BrianFromWA]

so are you saying that you are wrong about him not developing? I'm not sure what two weeks has to do with that... you seemed to be saying he never would. I listed many facets of the game that he's improved on in recent seasons.

No one expects Travis to continue to shoot the 3 at this rate. He would be the greatest 3 point shooter ever if that were the case. But it's looking like last years solid 40% wasn't a fluke as many here had suggested... it almost seems like with more opportunities he's more able to find his groove. Regardless, 40%... 55%, at some point we're just going to have to accept that dude can shoot it from deep. When will that be exactly?

STOMP

See my post a few posts up. I said I'm happy to say he's a good 3pt shooter now, and I hope it continues.

Can you explain to me your thoughts on his 23-68 percentage on non-3pt shots, though? I'm still waiting for that one from someone.

 

[PapaG]

I don't have a bunch of time, and I'll come back to this later, but a couple of things pop out.

I'll listen to Nate without thinking when he stops telling newspapers that Taurean Green will win us 4 games last year. If you don't want to look at objective evidence, fine. I won't stop you. I hardly think that my opinion is rendered "useless" by what Nate tells Quick.

He also put Outlaw on Miller during the Minnesota game at home. After Miller torched us for 3 wide-open 3's, he was promptly taken off Miller. He didn't guard Miller during just about the entire second half yesterday.

You don't comprehend well if you think I can't stand Outlaw. Please read my last post. I devoted over half of it to the opposite of "not standing Outlaw".

Last year in, iirc, the last L*ker game, K*be was being guarded by Webs (who drew the "stopper" assignment, I guess) for 2 1/2 quarters. K*be had 9 points. Travis was brought in I can only assume for offensive purposes, and was put on K*be. He ended up with 38, I think.

Please, all I ask is that you dispute what I say, instead of saying I make things up. Did I make up the 23-68 stat? Did I make up his rebounding numbers? Did I make up what the man he was defending did? You said "totally false", but I was 15 rows up watching Miller hit open three after open three while Travis was out of position. Was it b/c Nate told him to double Jefferson? Maybe, I don't know. I'm not in the huddle. But Miller DID hit wide-open threes while being Travis' assignment. I just posted I thought it was interesting that we put a 6'3 guy on Miller for most of the second half, and Travis on a non-shooting threat PG.

It really amazes me how much time and energy you put into tearing down a productive member of the team.

It's bizarre.