Outlaw the Scapegoat Thread

[BrianFromWA]

I noticed Travis was guarding Foye and Telfair was mostly on the bench in crunch time. He was playing well off of him and doubling down hard on Jefferson who had been killing. Blake or Travis could stay with Miller, but Travis wouldn't have been able to double off of him and help with Big Al.


we shall see Travis Hater, we shall see Of course I think you've got your head a certain somewhere if you think that Martell has been anything but disappointing on defense thus far or that his offense is anything inspiring or worth banking on. He's an average sized wing with average athleticism... he's had lots of opportunities, mediocre (at best) results and a pretty flat growth curve. He has struggled with self confidence issues.

Here's hoping that Batum continues to seem like he's going to leapfrog both of them. To my eyes he's got the best feel for the game, all around skills and defense already. I wouldn't be surprised to see Martell regain his starting position when he comes back, but NB is my best guess for who starts 2009-10

STOMP

I think Webs has improved over even just the course of last year, but I'm fully willing to say that the jury's out until he's back, and back for a few weeks. Notice (AGAIN!) that I'm NOT saying Travis sucks. What I am saying is that it's my opinion Webster is the complete player, and (AGAIN!) I think that we'll have to wait to see what Webs does when he gets back to have anything close to conclusive evidence on it. AGAIN, I think Travis' role should be primarily as the backup PF, with a few minutes at SF. And I think he should be crashing the boards every time a shot goes up. But that's just me.

It wouldn't surprise me to see Webster never start again. It would surprise me if Outlaw (barring injury) ever starts for us. Batum may be great, and I hope he is.

I think I've posted elsewhere my Webster thougths, and I'd be willing to do so again in a Webster thread. But this is about Travis, and I'm not seeing a whole lot of time taken to refute my claims...other than "read the Newspaper" and "That's totally false".

 

[BrianFromWA]

It really amazes me how much time and energy you put into tearing down a productive member of the team.

It's bizarre.

So I ask again, what parts was I wrong on? Which part did I make up?

I'm not the one in his head telling him to impersonate Carmelo Anthony so he can be an All-Star, or telling him to giggle with glee thinking about chucking from anywhere he wants, or hypnotizing him to shoot 23-68 on non-3pt shots.

I'm not the one telling him to make sure he fails Nate's physical tests when he shows up for training camp.

I'm certainly not the one telling him not to improve his game. I am the one saying I'd love for him to show the energy he did in the Houston game more than once every two weeks. I am the one saying I'd love for him to chop down a few of those contested 20-footers he's shooting 33% on so that he'd be an EVEN MORE PRODUCTIVE member of our team.

Color me not happy with mediocrity from my home team. And yes, if when Webs comes back he does the same thing (unlikely, but perhaps) then you'll see me questioning him, too. Check my comments on Blake, and LMA. Outlaw's not the only one who gets criticized.

 

[andalusian]

Webster and TO are very different players - the only thing they share is the fact that they play the same position.

Webster is a complementary role player who can shoot the open 3 and finish strong on the break when someone creates for him (seen recently with Rudy). Unfortunately, he is a below-average starter offensively who has not really improved his offense during his career so far (maybe he is ready to make this jump this year, I do not know) - but has improved defensively to the tune that he gets more minutes - and his offensive output is larger (but still the same per-minute).

Travis is a guy who can take over a game and the best attribute of his game is his ability to create a jump-shot for himself against almost anyone in the league. He does not work that well in the flow of the offense - but his long-ball shooting has improved to the point where he is stroking it better than Webster. His defense went from unwatchable to decent+ - so he improved both his defense and his offense. Travis is an above average offensive player and a decent defensive player.

I am not sure what makes Webster a more "complete" player that Outlaw - I just do not see it. But, what I do think is that replacing Webster's contributions is going to be a lot easier than replacing Travis - so in my opinion Travis's value to the team is higher. I think that with the emergence of Nic - I think he has the best chance to become our SF starter and th most complete player of these. I think Webster's long-term future with the team depends on Nate's decision if he wants Travis as the backup PF or the backup SF.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Webster and TO are very different players - the only thing they share is the fact that they play the same position.

Webster is a complementary role player who can shoot the open 3 and finish strong on the break when someone creates for him (seen recently with Rudy). Unfortunately, he is a below-average starter offensively who has not really improved his offense during his career so far (maybe he is ready to make this jump this year, I do not know) - but has improved defensively to the tune that he gets more minutes - and his offensive output is larger (but still the same per-minute).

Travis is a guy who can take over a game and the best attribute of his game is his ability to create a jump-shot for himself against almost anyone in the league. He does not work that well in the flow of the offense - but his long-ball shooting has improved to the point where he is stroking it better than Webster. His defense went from unwatchable to decent+ - so he improved both his defense and his offense. Travis is an above average offensive player and a decent defensive player.

I am not sure what makes Webster a more "complete" player that Outlaw - I just do not see it. But, what I do think is that replacing Webster's contributions is going to be a lot easier than replacing Travis - so in my opinion Travis's value to the team is higher. I think that with the emergence of Nic - I think he has the best chance to become our SF starter and th most complete player of these. I think Webster's long-term future with the team depends on Nate's decision if he wants Travis as the backup PF or the backup SF.

While I don't totally agree with everything you just said, I respect that you were coherent and pointed out actual differences. As I've said, I can't compare Webs' growth this year to Outlaw's growth this year. I've been happy with Travis' 3pt shooting increase, and yet still cringe when he goes inside the 3pt line.

I'm looking forward to the ride.

 

[PapaG]

So I ask again, what parts was I wrong on? Which part did I make up?

I'm not the one in his head telling him to impersonate Carmelo Anthony so he can be an All-Star, or telling him to giggle with glee thinking about chucking from anywhere he wants, or hypnotizing him to shoot 23-68 on non-3pt shots.

I'm not the one telling him to make sure he fails Nate's physical tests when he shows up for training camp.

I'm certainly not the one telling him not to improve his game. I am the one saying I'd love for him to show the energy he did in the Houston game more than once every two weeks. I am the one saying I'd love for him to chop down a few of those contested 20-footers he's shooting 33% on so that he'd be an EVEN MORE PRODUCTIVE member of our team.

Color me not happy with mediocrity from my home team. And yes, if when Webs comes back he does the same thing (unlikely, but perhaps) then you'll see me questioning him, too. Check my comments on Blake, and LMA. Outlaw's not the only one who gets criticized.

Which aspect of Travis' 22' made shot at the shot clock buzzer on a pass from Roy is negative?

Please answer this. Your initial post in this exchange was about that shot; what else would you expect Outlaw to do in that situation?

 

[STOMP]

See my post a few posts up. I said I'm happy to say he's a good 3pt shooter now, and I hope it continues.

Can you explain to me your thoughts on his 23-68 percentage on non-3pt shots, though? I'm still waiting for that one from someone.

???

it seems you're confusing a response I made to number 10 as if it was a response intended for you... it wasn't. It sure would be great if he would get back to me on how TO's defense, ballhandling, and 3 point shooting could improve but for him to claim it's somehow "a fact that his game hasn't improved at all"

To answer the later part of your post, I don't think Travis is great. What do I think of TO's converting of 2pnt shots this year? I think it has sucked. He has his shortcomings and could be improved on IMO. But warts and all, I prefer him to Webster at most every aspect of the game.

STOMP

 

[Ed O]

I'm pleased with how Outlaw's playing, and he made a couple very important plays... but he's no stopper.

If he was a stopper he wouldn't have been guarding Foye, who was the third or fourth offensive option for the Wolves.

Ed O.

 

[andalusian]

If he was a stopper he wouldn't have been guarding Foye, who was the third or fourth offensive option for the Wolves.

Travis is a better help defender than man to man defender - so putting him on someone he can switch off to help others is the right utilization of his abilities - it was the right call by Nate.

FWIW...

 

[Ed O]

Travis is a better help defender than man to man defender - so putting him on someone he can switch off to help others is the right utilization of his abilities - it was the right call by Nate.

FWIW...

I'm not criticizing Nate or Outlaw. I'm questioning those who anoint him a stopper based on the steal he got on Randy Foye in that game.

Ed O.

 

[andalusian]

I'm not criticizing Nate or Outlaw. I'm questioning those who anoint him a stopper based on the steal he got on Randy Foye in that game.

I know you were not. That's why I added the FWIW at the end - it was just an interesting tid-bit that seemed somewhat relevant to the conversation.

 

[Crimson the Cat]

Just to add my two cents. I couldn't be more pleased with Outlaw. He really has developed a more all-around game since last season. And maybe he didn't just develop one, but has broadened his responsibilities.

This team is just getting ridiculously loaded.

 

[PapaG]

I'm not criticizing Nate or Outlaw. I'm questioning those who anoint him a stopper based on the steal he got on Randy Foye in that game.

Ed O.

Nate has him guarding the best offensive player the opponent has at the end of games, at least in terms of creating their own shot. I'm not saying he is the "stopper", just that Nate feels Travis gives the team the best chance against these players. And the team continues to win these close games with him in the game. Those are the facts, in Nate's own words...

 

[number 10]

Really?

While Outlaw has long solidified his reputation as a late-game performer, he has never been known as a defensive weapon. But this season McMillan has put Outlaw on the Lakers' Kobe Bryant, Houston's Tracy McGrady and Miami's Dwyane Wade. Would McMillan have thought of doing that two seasons ago?

"No," McMillan said. "But I was hoping it would become this."

Gee, looks like it took six years of experience for Travis' coach to put him in a "stopper" position. As I said, get back to me on your "fool's gold" comments, unless Nate is a fool?

Yes, McMillan has put Outlaw on Kobe, McGrady, and Wade. And he's gotten absolutely torched. Outlaw making a good play against Randy "I'm Not Brandon Roy" Foye doesn't mean much, it's only one play out of 6 seasons. You seem to be expecting Outlaw to become a defensive stopper, which is ridiculously unlikely, whatever the coach and the beat writer say. He's had 6 years to prove he's not a great defensive player, and he hasn't even defended well this season.

As for a "fluff" article, what do you expect at this point? The team is 6-4 and is again winning close games with Outlaw in at the end.

I would expect that our fans don't take fluff articles as proof of a player's impending greatness.

so are you saying that you are wrong about him not developing? I'm not sure what two weeks has to do with that... you seemed to be saying he never would. I listed many facets of the game that he's improved on in recent seasons.

I'll admit that I was expecting some regression in his three point shooting and the opposite has happened, so far. If he can turn all those foot on the line jumpers into threes at a good rate I'll be thrilled. Until then, I'm not going to get excited by marginal improvements in his all around game. His offense is still his biggest strength, and his FG% and shot selection still isn't good enough to be more than a decent role player.

 

[PapaG]

Yes, McMillan has put Outlaw on Kobe, McGrady, and Wade. And he's gotten absolutely torched. Outlaw making a good play against Randy "I'm Not Brandon Roy" Foye doesn't mean much, it's only one play out of 6 seasons. You seem to be expecting Outlaw to become a defensive stopper, which is ridiculously unlikely, whatever the coach and the beat writer say. He's had 6 years to prove he's not a great defensive player, and he hasn't even defended well this season.
I would expect that our fans don't take fluff articles as proof of a player's impending greatness.
I'll admit that I was expecting some regression in his three point shooting and the opposite has happened, so far. If he can turn all those foot on the line jumpers into threes at a good rate I'll be thrilled. Until then, I'm not going to get excited by marginal improvements in his all around game. His offense is still his biggest strength, and his FG% and shot selection still isn't good enough to be more than a decent role player.

I get it. You like to criticize Outlaw, and you use your opinion only to back up your negativity. At least this is the thread for your nonsense.

I never said Outlaw was "great", so again, making stuff up in order to slam a productive member of the team makes me question you as to if you really are a fan of the TEAM.

 

[PapaG]

and shot selection still isn't good enough to be more than a decent role player.

Um, that is what he is, and that is what he is paid to be at $4 mil/per.

Webster has a better contract than Outlaw, and he doesn't even play at the end of games.

 

[number 10]

Um, that is what he is, and that is what he is paid to be at $4 mil/per.

Webster has a better contract than Outlaw, and he doesn't even play at the end of games.

He's playing 30 minutes a game, not role player minutes, and it's possible he's going to be seriously overpaid for his offensive abilities in two years.

I get it. You like to criticize Outlaw, and you use your opinion only to back up your negativity. At least this is the thread for your nonsense.

I don't.
I like to discuss ways to improve the team. Outlaw is IMO an overrated player who doesn't usually deserve the minutes he's getting.

I never said Outlaw was "great", so again, making stuff up in order to slam a productive member of the team makes me question you as to if you really are a fan of the TEAM.

Sorry if I mischaracterized you opinion on Outlaw. What, to you, does the Oregonian article mean? You expect him to significantly improve?

 

[STOMP]

I'll admit that I was expecting some regression in his three point shooting and the opposite has happened, so far. If he can turn all those foot on the line jumpers into threes at a good rate I'll be thrilled. Until then, I'm not going to get excited by marginal improvements in his all around game. His offense is still his biggest strength, and his FG% and shot selection still isn't good enough to be more than a decent role player.

first it was TS% then when he improved that you switched criteria...

your quote was that he hadn't shown any progression the last few seasons. If the bolded part is your feeble answer to my repeated request to address your ridiculous quote, then obviously we've taken this as far as possible. Dodge city.

STOMP

 

[number 10]

your quote was that he hadn't shown any progression the last few seasons. If the bolded part is your feeble answer to my repeated request to address your ridiculous quote, then obviously we've taken this as far as possible. Dodge city.

STOMP

If we're talking about this quote, posted the day after the Laker debacle...

So how do you think Outlaw is going to improve? He's 24, I think it's fairly clear that he's never going to be a Maggette style slasher. He's a jump shooter who's TS% isn't very good, that's not a good role player.
My biggest disappointment with him this pre-season was the fact that his game hasn't changed at all. If he was attacking the hoop a la Bayless but still turning it over a lot, I could understand the "raw" argument, even after 6 years. But his game is deep jumpers, and the Blazers already take too many.

I don't get what I'm supposedly dodging. He's a jump shooter, and I'm not a big fan of players who's main skill is to create their own jump shot. Where did I say that's he hasn't shown any progression?

 

[STOMP]

Where did I say that's he hasn't shown any progression?

right here...

My biggest disappointment with him this pre-season was the fact that his game hasn't changed at all

How can improved outside shooting, ball handling, and being deemed a 4th quarter defensive option on guards by a defensive minded coach be indications of a player whose game that hasn't progressed?

STOMP

 

[number 10]

right here...

How can improved outside shooting, ball handling, and being deemed a 4th quarter defensive option on guards by a defensive minded coach be indications of a player whose game that hasn't progressed?

STOMP

Me being disappointed that his game, after a very poor pre-season, didn't seem to have changed his game does not mean that I felt that "he hadn't shown any progression the last few seasons."

Anyway, his "game" to me, at least, means his style of play, ie a perimeter player. Has that changed?

outside shooting - yep, big improvement, hopefully it continues (over 40% from three, obviously 55% or whatever can't continue)
ball handling - I don't see any improvement here
4th quarter defensive option - I don't care if he's being considered an option, I care how he performs. So far, I'm still not impressed with his defense in general.

 

[maxiep]

I get it. You like to criticize Outlaw, and you use your opinion only to back up your negativity. At least this is the thread for your nonsense.

I never said Outlaw was "great", so again, making stuff up in order to slam a productive member of the team makes me question you as to if you really are a fan of the TEAM.

I just read a thread where you slammed Zach. Did you slam him when he was a "productive member of the team" or only after he was traded?

Travis is Zach Randolph without the rebounding.

 

[STOMP]

Travis is Zach Randolph without the rebounding...

and any of the continual offcourt nonsense that surrounded ZR, which was the given reason by KP for his being shipped.

This is a bad comparison for many other reasons as well. Maybe that they are both less then perfect lead players... but even thats a strange stretch to make.

STOMP

 

[BrianFromWA]

I don't want to speak for Maxie, but I'm thinking he's also using the "doesn't pass much after given the ball" (which I will admit looks better this year than last, but he is by no means a distributor). Zach was pretty notorious for not passing very much. Travis (until this season) was thought of in the same way. But even if you say that Zach was only doing it to pad his numbers, he at least would go hard after rebounds.

And there's the parallel of both stating how they want more shots so they can score more and be all-stars.

I like Travis better than Zach, but I can understand when people see parallels.

 

[STOMP]

I don't want to speak for Maxie, but I'm thinking he's also using the "doesn't pass much after given the ball" (which I will admit looks better this year than last, but he is by no means a distributor). Zach was pretty notorious for not passing very much. Travis (until this season) was thought of in the same way. But even if you say that Zach was only doing it to pad his numbers, he at least would go hard after rebounds.

Travis is averaging about a shot every 3 minutes or 0.33 shots per minute... thats far less then both LA (0.43) and Roy (0.45) and just this side of Rudy (0.31). On the other hand Zach is putting the ball up about the same rate this year (0.49) as he did in Portland (his last year in PDX 0.53)... right about one shot every two minutes. How in the world is this a parallel? Travis touches the ball on nearly every possession he's in. Without question he moves then ball more times then not. It doesn't always lead to an assist, TO, or a shot attempt, but unlike Zach dude does move the ball.

And there's the parallel of both stating how they want more shots so they can score more and be all-stars.

thats some truly weak sauce you've got there.

STOMP

 

[PapaG]

I just read a thread where you slammed Zach. Did you slam him when he was a "productive member of the team" or only after he was traded?
Travis is Zach Randolph without the rebounding.

Only after he was traded. Why? I didn't "slam" Zach, either. I said that a team just has to hope that his offensive plusses outweight his defensive liabilities.

 

[BrianFromWA]

thats some truly weak sauce you've got there.

STOMP

Not me that said it.

Outlaw averaged 11.8 shots per game last season -- third highest on the Blazers behind Roy and Aldridge -- and he was given free rein to create his own shot, particularly in the fourth quarter. But he says he would like to average 15 shots this season -- the amount Roy and Aldridge averaged last season -- and disputes the notion that he had the green light with the Blazers.

"Noooo. Noooo," Outlaw says about the green light, prompting his imitation of Blazers coach Nate McMillan. "'Now Travis, that shot, you can get something better than that.'"

John, his brother, agrees with McMillan's theory, that Outlaw could drive more and get more dunks or free throw attempts instead of settling for the jumper. But Outlaw doesn't want to hear any of it.

"Now, Carmelo, he's doing 360 (degree) fades, and George Karl is over there (he claps his hands) 'That's all right,'" Outlaw says. "Let me get a light like that. I be trying some stuff."

He has, in essence, fallen in love with his jumper, and is not shy about admitting it. He calls his jumpers "wet" because they splash through the net.

"I shoot jumpers like layups," Outlaw says. "Sometimes I get on a fast break and I want to pull up."

He is hands-down the best dunker on the Blazers, so much so that his teammates have urged him to take part in the All-Star dunk contest, but Outlaw shied away from the chance. It's not that he doesn't like dunking, but the jumper has taken so much time and effort to perfect that he has a hard time straying from it.

"I love the dunk. If I can catch you up under the rim slippin', I'm all for it," Outlaw says. "But I like to see it go through the net. Ever since Kobe shot that jumper and did that little mug thing, where he be cocky ... I want to try that. I want to hit the jumper then walk off looking at the crowd."

When told that doesn't sound like him -- fronting to the crowd, being cocky -- Outlaw doesn't break out of character.

"Huh? Well, it's gonna be."

Later, back at his home and away from the slangy, bravado that went on at the eatery, Outlaw admits he was playing.

http://blog.oregonlive.com/behindblazersbeat/2008/08/rain_dampens_outlaws_day_not_o.html

BTW, I'm glad he talked to his mom the other night.

Back home in Starkville, Miss., Markeeta hadn't liked what she had seen from her middle child during the Blazers' opening stretch of the season. So when Travis called, she told him so.
"It's like when I was talking to my mom on the phone, and she said, 'Why don't you have fun and go rebound?'" Outlaw said. "And I thought, 'You know, that ain't such a bad idea.'"

(http://blog.oregonlive.com/behindblazersbeat/2008/11/conversation_with_mom_brings_o.html)

13 rebounds and a win later, he should call her every night. And which is the truth? Nate telling Quick Travis has been playing great, or his Mom telling him she's not liking what she sees, and him acknowledging that he changed his game?

 

[maxiep]

and any of the continual offcourt nonsense that surrounded ZR, which was the given reason by KP for his being shipped.

This is a bad comparison for many other reasons as well. Maybe that they are both less then perfect lead players... but even thats a strange stretch to make.

STOMP

How so? You do know about Trout and his predilection for, ahem, shall we say, barely legal girls, don't you? He may not be dosing chicks with GHB, but he's not AC Green either. Also, there isn't a Blazer who loves the strip clubs more.

But let's keep the topic on the court, shall we? Both don't really care about defense. Both love to have the green light to shoot. Both have a pretty low BBIQ or flat out don't care about a broad range of skills necessary to play the game. Both are black holes.

They're the same player in so many ways.

 

[maxiep]

Only after he was traded. Why? I didn't "slam" Zach, either. I said that a team just has to hope that his offensive plusses outweight his defensive liabilities.

Then I look forward to you slamming TO after he's traded.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Travis is averaging about a shot every 3 minutes or 0.33 shots per minute... thats far less then both LA (0.43) and Roy (0.45) and just this side of Rudy (0.31). On the other hand Zach is putting the ball up about the same rate this year (0.49) as he did in Portland (his last year in PDX 0.53)... right about one shot every two minutes. How in the world is this a parallel? Travis touches the ball on nearly every possession he's in. Without question he moves then ball more times then not. It doesn't always lead to an assist, TO, or a shot attempt, but unlike Zach dude does move the ball.

STOMP

In my post I specifically pointed out that UNTIL THIS YEAR you could say the same. In others in this thread I've said how I like that he's passing more.

I don't understand why there's the vitriol here. It's not just me:
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/players/hollinger?playerId=2015

The scouting report on Outlaw says he needs to improve his jumper and get to the rim more (I'd add "better 3pt shooting", and he's done well hitting open 3's, so his TS% has gone up). Zach in 2006 (when many, including me, were saying he's a black hole, had an assist ratio of 7.9. Travis last year had one of 8.1. Do you think Randolph was just much better at setting up his teammates when he passed than Outlaw was, or that there really isn't a difference in passing? (Caveat: I'd really like to find a "# of possessions where player took shot vs. # of possessions a player passed" stat. If you find one, please let me know.)

 

[STOMP]

Not me that said it.

I know he said it, I'm saying thats a weak thing to point to if you're trying to draw a unique parallel between these two. I'm sure that NBA players who believe they should be getting more minutes, touches and shots are in the vast majority to those that don't. Travis and Zach both breath air, is that a parallel?

I don't understand why there's the vitriol here.

me either. Dude is playing well/improving and people are bending over backwards to slight him.

STOMP