Notice Overrated

[Phatguysrule]

It cracks me up when people downplay Kobe Bryant because they either hate the Lakers or hate Los Angeles altogether. Almost every list/publication/NBA historian, former player, etc., has Kobe on their all time top 10 list. For fun i just checked. ESPN, Hoopshype, CBM, Complex, The NYT, have him in there, which clearly doesn't mean everything but it obviously shows that thinking Kobe is top 10 is pretty common.

It's a popularity contest. Just like all star games. Just like all league teams.

I think the fact that Kobe played more recently than a lot of guys gives him a leg up and I think the fact that he played in LA for 20 years gives him a leg up.

I don't argue with his inclusion into the top 10. But the more I think about it the more I put him in the 25-ish range.

 

[GoZers]

It's a popularity contest. Just like all star games. Just like all league teams.

I think the fact that Kobe played more recently than a lot of guys gives him a leg up and I think the fact that he played in LA for 20 years gives him a leg up.

I don't argue with his inclusion into the top 10. But the more I think about it the more I put him in the 25-ish range.

OK, that is fine. I guess I am missing out on the criteria that people have for being top 10 and where Kobe Bryant misses the mark. Winning, awards, statistics, longevity, impact, MVP, Finals MVP, where is he lacking?

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

Looking at ESPN, they have him #9. They also have Shaq, the Big-O, and Hakeem behind him. I personally would put all 3 ahead of Kobe. I think 12 is a reasonable place for him.

I agree with Shaq. The others are iffy for me.

Do you handily think Larry Bird is better?

 

[Phatguysrule]

OK, that is fine. I guess I am missing out on the criteria that people have for being top 10 and where Kobe Bryant misses the mark. Winning, awards, statistics, longevity, impact, MVP, Finals MVP, where is he lacking?

There are other guys who meet those qualifications as well. He missed a lot of shots. Raped a girl. And he was an asshole teammate.

I think a lot of his awards were based on popularity and the fact that he had really good teammates with him as well as great coaching. And he was the recipient of some very beneficial Laker bias from the refs that allowed him to get to the finals and get those finals MVPs.

Again, he was an incredible player. He had incredible focus. And incredible skills and desire.

I just wouldn't put him top 10. And once you don't put him top 10 based on his accomplishments as a Laker, then you have to start looking at other guys who don't even really get considered because they didn't get that benefit.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I agree with Shaq. The others are iffy for me.

Do you handily think Larry Bird is better?

100%. I'd start a team with Larry Bird over Kobe every single time. Same with Hakeem and Big O (both over Kobe).

*Edit* I'd probably take Stockton over Kobe as well. He was every bit as motivated as Kobe and far tougher and less of a prima donna. Even if Stockton is also an asshole. And he absolutely is.

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

There are other guys who meet those qualifications as well. He missed a lot of shots. Raped a girl. And he was an asshole teammate.

Jordan also missed a lot of shots and was an asshole teammate.

I guess Kobe wasn't that big of an asshole to some teammates though eh?

Shaq and Gasol love the guy and reflect back on their time fondly even if they had scuffles.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Jordan also missed a lot of shots and was an asshole teammate.

I guess Kobe wasn't that big of an asshole to some teammates though eh?

Shaq and Gasol love the guy and reflect back on their time fondly even if they had shuffles.

Jordan has so much over Kobe that the assholeness doesn't even come into play, IMO.

*Edit* These guys (MJ and Kobe) aren't even in the same conversation, IMO.

Jordan, Wilt, Shaq, Kareem

Then everyone else. Not necessarily in that order, but everyone else is far, far below these guys.

*Edit 2*And Jordan, Wilt, and Kareem are above. Oh shoot. Forgot Bill Russell. He's up with Kareem and Wilt. MJ is the GOAT.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

I agree with Shaq. The others are iffy for me.

Do you handily think Larry Bird is better?

I think longevity is the only argument against Bird. At peak, in prime, I think it's Bird, no contest.

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

Jordan has so much over Kobe that the assholeness doesn't even come into play, IMO.

*Edit* These guys (MJ and Kobe) aren't even in the same conversation, IMO.

Jordan, Wilt, Shaq, Kareem

Then everyone else. Not necessarily in that order, but everyone else is far, far below these guys.

Lebron and Magic are in that group too.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Lebron and Magic is in that group too.

Nah. They are with the next group, IMO. Behind Bird.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Nah. They are with the next group, IMO. Behind Bird.

I would put Bird, Magic, and Lebron all in the same group.

Also, Jokic is pushing his way into that group, as will Doncic. Curry is top-20, and I think Giannis probably is too, but both a tier below those Balkan behemoths.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Jordan has so much over Kobe that the assholeness doesn't even come into play, IMO.

*Edit* These guys (MJ and Kobe) aren't even in the same conversation, IMO.

Jordan, Wilt, Shaq, Kareem

Then everyone else. Not necessarily in that order, but everyone else is far, far below these guys.

*Edit 2*And Jordan, Wilt, and Kareem are above. Oh shoot. Forgot Bill Russell. He's up with Kareem and Wilt. MJ is the GOAT.

Kinda seems like, if you separate bigs from wings, you basically have this.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I would put Bird, Magic, and Lebron all in the same group.

Also, Jokic is pushing his way into that group, as will Doncic. Curry is top-20, and I think Giannis probably is too, but both a tier below those Balkan behemoths.

Yeah, that all seems pretty legit... I could be persuaded to rank them like that. I do think Stockton is probably in there somewhere... And I'm sure I'm missing some others.

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

Yeah, that all seems pretty legit... I could be persuaded to rank them like that. I do think Stockton is probably in there somewhere... And I'm sure I'm missing some others.

There are at least 5 or 6 point guards that are above Stockton.

 

[wizenheimer]

I agree. One of those examples was Dame making the 75th team instead of Kyrie Irving.

c'mon man

Kyrie was able to play with Lebron, Kevin Love, Jaysun Tatum., Jalen Brown, James Harden & Kevin Durant....all before he was 30. Dame never got to play with any players like that; nor did he ever get to draft off of the wakes those superstars created, or play against single coverage like Kyrie often did. And he still was able to post better numbers, pretty much across the board

 

[Phatguysrule]

There are at least 5 or 6 point guards that are above Stockton.

I see two on the list above with an argument. Of course Steph has a huge argument... I know what you mean though. I was thinking of the point guards who are being left out. Bob Cousy, Nate Archibald, Nash, Payton, Kidd, Chris Paul, Derrick Rose...

I'm not sure how many I'd put ahead of Stockton, though. Tough to know with the limited amount of video we have on some of those guys... As far as just being a badass Calvin Murphy was beating the hell out of posts for like a decade...

I have Stockton solidly top 20 though. So freaking tough...

 

[kjironman1]

This thread got a little whack? Kobe not even top 10? Like when did that happen?

 

[PtldPlatypus]

This thread got a little whack? Kobe not even top 10? Like when did that happen?

You see my GOAT tier diagram. What in there do you disagree with?

 

[kjironman1]

You see my GOAT tier diagram. What in there do you disagree with?

The Goat tier diagram.
Many players that actually played against Kobe would disagree with you on that. Kobe was on a different level.
No I'm not a Laker fan and no I really never was a Kobe fan other than you had to respect his play. I also had issue with Kobe for his off court problems.

 

[BonesJones]

Here is a thread to discuss overrated players and teams. I’ll start: Anthony Edwards. 47th in PER last year, 76th in PER this year. By the way, KAT is top 4.

PER? lol

 

[SharpesTriumph]

OK, that is fine. I guess I am missing out on the criteria that people have for being top 10 and where Kobe Bryant misses the mark. Winning, awards, statistics, longevity, impact, MVP, Finals MVP, where is he lacking?

All of the players in the top 30ish are amazing hall of fame talents. So these lists are all splitting hairs. All these guys could be the primarily player leading a team to a title.

I think of these lists as best player to be what player if added to a team would give that franchise the greatest increase in chance of titles over their career. Longevity does matter but peak years also matter. Bill Walton would never make these lists even though a single season of his might. Karl Malone played very well into his 40's but was never close to the best player in the league (even though like Westbrook we won an MVP). Duncan is clearly above Kobe as he can fit alongside so many other great players, contribute more on both ends of the court, and was able to do it much later into his career.

Now if your definition is who could have the highest PPG, highlight plays, and entertain butts in the seats a player like Kobe would rank much higher. I always consider players that provide the most substance to wins to be superior over someone with flashy plays which is part of the reason I rank Kobe lower than others.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

I see two on the list above with an argument. Of course Steph has a huge argument... I know what you mean though. I was thinking of the point guards who are being left out. Bob Cousy, Nate Archibald, Nash, Payton, Kidd, Chris Paul, Derrick Rose...

I'm not sure how many I'd put ahead of Stockton, though. Tough to know with the limited amount of video we have on some of those guys... As far as just being a badass Calvin Murphy was beating the hell out of posts for like a decade...

I have Stockton solidly top 20 though. So freaking tough...

I'd put Kobe over Stockton, Nash, Payton, CP3, Isiah Thomas, etc just because a short guard can't lead a team to titles as effective as elite wings can.

Bill Russell is another player who is massively overrated. A center that shot 44% in a tiny NBA league with 8 teams? In today's game I'm not even sure he'd be a starter.

The racism and other obstacles Russell had to overcome should certainly be commended. But that is totally separate from how good of an all time NBA talent he is.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I'd put Kobe over Stockton, Nash, Payton, CP3, Isiah Thomas, etc just because a short guard can't lead a team to titles as effective as elite wings can.

Bill Russell is another player who is massively overrated. A center that shot 44% in a tiny NBA league with 8 teams? In today's game I'm not even sure he'd be a starter.

The racism and other obstacles Russell had to overcome should certainly be commended. But that is totally separate from how good of an all time NBA talent he is.

Well, Isaiah Thomas did it twice, without another superstar. Stockton would have if not for running into the GOAT twice. Though, Stockton did have Malone.

Stockton and Thomas have the best argument, IMO. But Nash is massively underrated. The league screwed the Suns (Diaw and Amare suspensions, for example) or Nash would probably have at least one title.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Well, Isaiah Thomas did it twice, without another superstar. Stockton would have if not for running into the GOAT twice. Though, Stockton did have Malone.

Stockton and Thomas have the best argument, IMO. But Nash is massively underrated. The league screwed the Suns (Diaw and Amare suspensions, for example) or Nash would probably have at least one title.

Isiah Thomas had a stacked team, 3 elite guards with Dumars, Vinnie Johnson, great bigs with Dennis Rodman, Lambier and John Salley.

Switch Kobe with Isiah Thomas and they still win two of those titles, but they might have won more.

Not sure how all the sudden this thread has turned into me supporting Kobe.... I think he's way overrated. All the same arguments I made above would stay the same with Wade in place of Kobe.