Pirates, Ninjas, Vikings (Was Big Time Centers Rookie #'s)

[Nikolokolus]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

So disagreeing that it was the bar by which to measure Greg's rookie season isn't allowed?

disagreement is fine. But what is there to disagree with? HCP posted a handful of highly touted rookie centers that went on to have HOF careers (or are likely HOF candidates in the case of Dwight Howard), and since Greg is a highly touted center prospect these are the guys he'll be compared against. Including every center, star, bust and in between, would serve no purpose.

I think you're still assuming that HCP was saying, "Hey look at these rookie centers, this is what Greg is going to do."

 

[cpawfan]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

disagreement is fine. But what is there to disagree with? HCP posted a handful of highly touted rookie centers that went on to have HOF careers (or are likely HOF candidates in the case of Dwight Howard), and since Greg is a highly touted center prospect these are the guys he'll be compared against. Including every center, star, bust and in between, would serve no purpose.

I think you're still assuming that HCP was saying, "Hey look at these rookie centers, this is what Greg is going to do."

I never assumed such a thing.

I disagree that it was an appropriate sample of big men to set the rookie bar at for Oden. Hell, at bbf, I had an Oden avatar before the Blazers won the lottery. I'm an Oden fan.

 

[THE HCP]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

I'm glad there are some guys out there that understand what I was doing. Just starting a thread about GREG. If this is how we are going to be treated over here, I'd rather be at BBF.

 

[cpawfan]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

My take on my own (not terribly rigorous) rookie data is that Oden is almost a certain lock for double-digit rebounding and scoring. 20 ppg seems a bit high, but he ought to do better than Howard or Yao.

Yao was incredibly soft entering the league, and he played beside real chuckers in Francis/Mobley.

In his first year Howard could only score on dunks, and that was if you couldn't foul him before he got the shot up. And he just wasn't very aggressive with his shot.

I'm looking for around 15 ppg and 12 rebounds, with FG% in the mid-to-high .500's.

Amare as a 20 year old rookie (using the same scale as mook) averaged 14.6 PPG after the All Star game. He played with two 20+ PPG scorers in Marbury and Marion.

DHo averaged 14.5 PPG after the All Star game his rookie year

Oden is a much better Free Throw shooter than either Amare or DHo

 

[gatorpops]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

I'm glad there are some guys out there that understand what I was doing. Just starting a thread about GREG. If this is how we are going to be treated over here, I'd rather be at BBF.

I am with you HCP, big time.

The hijackers of the thread did not understand or deliberately went on a tangent. There may be other reasons that I haven't covered however.

I am grateful that you took the time to make a thread that we could have discussed. I suspect that most would be posters did not get to this point in the thread.

To the Point of the thread, if is helpful for me to see these number as it gives a framework to judge Greg's performance.

He is likely to excel but to what level is anybody s guess.

My best guess would be Greg will compare favorably somewhere close to what Walton accomplished. I don't have the stats, but I remember seeing him play and I think Greg will be better in the long run. Greg's size is going to be far more overpowering than Walton's.


g

 

[pegs]

Allow me to bask in the irony. I'm a fan of irony.

This is why I used to never go to the OT thread. All they do is argue about bull shit! I'll come on here and discuss "basketball", but not how I should or should not start a thread. This is a waste of time. I have to be at work early tomorrow and you guys are not even talking about hoops. You don't even know me, and now I'm lazy.

 

[cpawfan]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

The hijackers of the thread did not understand or deliberately went on a tangent. There may be other reasons that I haven't covered however.

So you believe there is zero reason to discuss if the original list is appropriate as you say below to give a framework to judge Oden's performance?

Personally, I see zero reason to set the bar at the performance level of players that scored 20+ PPG as rookies, especially ones that had multiple years of college.

To the Point of the thread, if is helpful for me to see these number as it gives a framework to judge Greg's performance.

He is likely to excel but to what level is anybody s guess.

My best guess would be Greg will compare favorably somewhere close to what Walton accomplished. I don't have the stats, but I remember seeing him play and I think Greg will be better in the long run. Greg's size is going to be far more overpowering than Walton's.

g

In 35 games, Walton averaged 12.8 PPG and 12.6 RPG as a 22 year old rookie

 

[maxiep]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

You said you wanted to discuss the numbers. What is it that you want to discuss about them? Is everyone suppose to go wow, can't wait for the season and then move on?

cpaw, if you wish to provide a critique, perhaps it would be instructive to create a post as to how you would have approached this problem. Include the requisite players with the relevant data.

 

[pegs]

I have a membership at S2, not RipCityTwo.

I was hoping to come in here and discuss rookie centers in comparison to Oden. Such as: playing styles, players around them, coaches, pace, etc. that affected them and their numbers. And how all that will affect Oden and his numbers.

Do I need to make a new thread to discuss that, or is that too off-topic?

Or am I not allowed here? Do I have to go to the NBA General section to discuss that?

 

[THE HCP]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

Ask the 2 cats that fucked this thread up in the first place!

 

[drexlersdad]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

oden WILL average EXACTLY 15.3 ppg/12.7rpg/2.7 bbg.


lets all calm the fuck down, im really over this drama bullshit.

 

[Further]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

Players make the HOF for different reasons, some for offense and some for defense, and some for both. I would love for Oden to have ppg stats like some of the others mentioned, or rpg numbers for that matter, but I think that Oden has the best shot at making the HOF not based on his offensive stats as much as his defensive prowess. This is not to say that his offensive game will be lacking, but I am not expecting nearly the numbers as some of the others. Also, Oden is younger then most of the others listed and he also missed all last season and was injured the year before. So his stats may be temporarily stunted. Of course, if the injury lingers, the stuntation (new word) may prove more permanent.

But I think that from this season, we might not be able to tell how high the ceiling is for Oden. I think, if somehow he turns out to be a dud, we will be able to tell, but if he ends up putting up middle of the road stats, we will just have to wait and see how he improves from there.

 

[cpawfan]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

cpaw, if you wish to provide a critique, perhaps it would be instructive to create a post as to how you would have approached this problem. Include the requisite players with the relevant data.

I find Oden to be extremely unique and essentially every player that would be presented I can argue against why they shouldn't be the bar.

I am primarily interested in the "why" people select certain players. For some players, I can see taking parts of player's games, eg Howard's and Amare's rawness in scoring, but then things start getting messy.

 

[pegs]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

oden WILL average EXACTLY 15.3 ppg/12.7rpg/2.7 bbg.

Why so much?

Offensively, he's average. And he has a better scorer alongside him. Also, he has a quality backup.

Plus, there's the fact that he's got Nate as a coach. He's more known for letting big men do their jobs - as in, if they're defensive specialists, let them focus on that - and then having his scorers do their jobs.

I see Blake, Roy, Outlaw, and Aldridge as the main scorers; with Oden getting touches every once in a while. Oden would be more important on defense. I can't really see him getting more than 11 ppg - with Joel getting PT, too.

I don't necessarily argue with the rpg and bpg numbers - maybe a bit lower because of Joel and Aldridge being quality players, getting minutes, and rebounds.

 

[PapaG]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

Shit Rizz, I'd like to think I know a little something about hoops, I better huh?

But you only have 250 posts!!! Come on man, listen to these very smart posters who are criticizing you for your own thread!

I thought it was pretty clear what the point of your original post was, but I guess I was wrong.

 

[THE HCP]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

But you only have 250 posts!!! Come on man, listen to these very smart posters who are criticizing you for your own thread!

I thought it was pretty clear what the point of your original post was, but I guess I was wrong.

Thanks brother.

 

[cpawfan]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

But you only have 250 posts!!! Come on man, listen to these very smart posters who are criticizing you for your own thread!

No one is criticizing HCP the person

Attempting to debate him about why he selected the players on his list is not criticizing him

 

[dreamcloud]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

Wow, what the fuck, if this is how people are treated by admins for just making a thread for fun, then why the hell did we move here? I never saw this BS at BBF, I agree with HCP. A fuckin' admin hijacking a thread in a Portland forum, what a bunch of bull shit

 

[Ed O]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

Ask the 2 cats that fucked this thread up in the first place!

I, personally, appreciate you starting this thread but ...

Man. Why are you being so defensive?

A couple of posters pointed out that you left some players out, and you could have said, "Yep. So what?"

I didn't see anything that was them taking shots at you, and I don't understand why there's so much negativity directed towards them, personally, when they've sent almost none your way and certainly didn't do so at the beginning of the thread.

Calling cpaw a "prick" and a "jerk"? Why?

Ed O.

 

[drexlersdad]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

Why so much?

Offensively, he's average. And he has a better scorer alongside him. Also, he has a quality backup.

Plus, there's the fact that he's got Nate as a coach. He's more known for letting big men do their jobs - as in, if they're defensive specialists, let them focus on that - and then having his scorers do their jobs.

I see Blake, Roy, Outlaw, and Aldridge as the main scorers; with Oden getting touches every once in a while. Oden would be more important on defense. I can't really see him getting more than 11 ppg - with Joel getting PT, too.

I don't necessarily argue with the rpg and bpg numbers - maybe a bit lower because of Joel and Aldridge being quality players, getting minutes, and rebounds.

average offensively for what? a center? a rookie? i would argue that you are wrong in your assessment of his offensive game.

Blake as a main scorer? WHAT????

LMA doesnt get alot of rebounds, kinda similar to Dwight Howards rpg in playing with hedo and rashard at pf.

it all basically depends on his minutes, i am basing my numbers off of 36 mpg. he might end up getting alot less minutes, and therefore lower stats.

 

[Ed O]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

As to the original topic: those guys (save Howard) seem like they were primarily centerpieces of their teams' offenses from day one, so the number of shots they got were a higher proportion of their teams' than Oden's should be... plus our pace will be low again, which suppresses stats across the board.

Ed O.

 

[dreamcloud]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

LMAO @ Blake being a main scorer over Oden.

 

[drexlersdad]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

I, personally, appreciate you starting this thread but ...

Man. Why are you being so defensive?

A couple of posters pointed out that you left some players out, and you could have said, "Yep. So what?"

I didn't see anything that was them taking shots at you, and I don't understand why there's so much negativity directed towards them, personally, when they've sent almost none your way and certainly didn't do so at the beginning of the thread.

Calling cpaw a "prick" and a "jerk"? Why?

Ed O.

well it takes a rare breed to point out that you missed some centers on your list OVER and OVER and OVER. bfd. he could have contributed to the thread and listed the centers whom he felt were dealt this great injustice in the first place.

i think we are all a little on edge still, lets just talk some bball!

 

[GMJ]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

Wow, what the fuck, if this is how people are treated by admins for just making a thread for fun, then why the hell did we move here? I never saw this BS at BBF, I agree with HCP. A fuckin' admin hijacking a thread in a Portland forum, what a bunch of bull shit

oh jesus. grow up. If you get this distressed just because someone disagrees with you then you shouldn't be talking about sports anywhere.

 

[Ed O]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

well it takes a rare breed to point out that you missed some centers on your list OVER and OVER and OVER. bfd. he could have contributed to the thread and listed the centers whom he felt were dealt this great injustice in the first place.

He posted in the thread four times before he was called a "prick" and a "jerk". One of those posts was in response to the Kandi/Kwame post by maxiep.

Irrespective of whether he was criticising the original post or not, there is no justification for personal attacks.

Ed O.

 

[pegs]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

average offensively for what? a center? a rookie? i would argue that you are wrong in your assessment of his offensive game.

Blake as a main scorer? WHAT????

LMA doesnt get alot of rebounds, kinda similar to Dwight Howards rpg in playing with hedo and rashard at pf.

it all basically depends on his minutes, i am basing my numbers off of 36 mpg. he might end up getting alot less minutes, and therefore lower stats.

I would argue that I watched him on Ohio State, and his offensive game wasn't all that great. I mean, sure, he could overpower college players. I'm not sure I could see him doing that consistently in the NBA. From time to time, sure...

Hmm..well, apparently you didn't understand. And/or I didn't explain enough. Blake isn't a main scorer, it's just that his specialty is scoring...and passing. As a role player. Whereas I see Oden's specialty being on the defensive end.

Hmm. Yeah, I know he doesn't get a lot of rebounds, but LMA's not as bad as Rashard in that aspect. Then again, I haven't watched LMA as much as you, I'm just basing this off a couple games. But there's also the thought that possibly, Greg will play alongside Joel - maybe- and Joel usually focuses on rebounding and defense, correct? He probably won't have as much pressure to grab rebounds as Dwight...and rebounding numbers aren't that high nowadays as it is.

Okay, 36 mpg, didn't know that. I should have asked. I guess I just see him getting 25-30. Also taking into account foul trouble, getting back from the injury, etc.

 

[pegs]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

LMAO @ Blake being a main scorer over Oden.

LMAO at you not giving me a chance to explain and also contributing nothing to the thread. Good job!

i think we are all a little on edge still, lets just talk some bball!

I agree, and I appreciate you debating with me, Mr. Drexler.

 

[mook]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

As to the original topic: those guys (save Howard) seem like they were primarily centerpieces of their teams' offenses from day one, so the number of shots they got were a higher proportion of their teams' than Oden's should be... plus our pace will be low again, which suppresses stats across the board.

Ed O.

That may be true, but just imagine that Oden destroys some team for 30 points on 80% shooting, as Shaq used to so many times. Now imagine he does that a couple of times in a week or two, just because of circumstance.

Even with all of our other great offensive weapons, if Oden started demonstrating that kind of domination, I could easily see Nate throwing out the game plan and telling everybody, "Oden gets it in the post on every possession."

I'm not saying it's likely, or that Oden is going to be that dominant on the offensive end, but if he were it's not hard to imagine that we throw all the old plans out the window. There's absolutely nothing more devastating than a dominant offensive center.

 

[cpawfan]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

I would argue that I watched him on Ohio State, and his offensive game wasn't all that great. I mean, sure, he could overpower college players. I'm not sure I could see him doing that consistently in the NBA. From time to time, sure...

His game at to$u was significantly limited by the wrist injury and it taking away quite a bit of flexibility in his primary hand.

It is difficult to quantify how "raw" his offensive game is right now because of the lack of healthy games played over the past few seasons.

Hmm..well, apparently you didn't understand. And/or I didn't explain enough. Blake isn't a main scorer, it's just that his specialty is scoring...and passing. As a role player.

If you talked about Bayless and Rudy you'd have a better point

 

[cpawfan]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

That may be true, but just imagine that Oden destroys some team for 30 points on 80% shooting, as Shaq used to so many times. Now imagine he does that a couple of times in a week or two, just because of circumstance.

Even with all of our other great offensive weapons, if Oden started demonstrating that kind of domination, I could easily see Nate throwing out the game plan and telling everybody, "Oden gets it in the post on every possession."

I'm not saying it's likely, or that Oden is going to be that dominant on the offensive end, but if he were it's not hard to imagine that we throw all the old plans out the window. There's absolutely nothing more devastating than a dominant offensive center.

I don't have such a high opinion of Nate. I can't see him adjusting like that.