Pirates, Ninjas, Vikings (Was Big Time Centers Rookie #'s)

[drexlersdad]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

He posted in the thread four times before he was called a "prick" and a "jerk". One of those posts was in response to the Kandi/Kwame post by maxiep.

Irrespective of whether he was criticising the original post or not, there is no justification for personal attacks.

Ed O.

agreed no place for that.

i also just from reading got a condescending/antagonizing tone from some posters and there is no place for that either.

lets talk some ball!

 

[dreamcloud]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

LMAO at you not giving me a chance to explain and also contributing nothing to the thread. Good job!



I agree, and I appreciate you debating with me, Mr. Drexler.

And you forget Oden is a CORE player. Blake's job/"speciality" is NOT to score, it's to pass to..ODEN, LMA & ROY unless no time left in shot clock. Do you even watch the blazers? I LOL @ you, because you sound clueless.

And please, this topic is 5 pages of garbage.

 

[THE HCP]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

I, personally, appreciate you starting this thread but ...

Man. Why are you being so defensive?

A couple of posters pointed out that you left some players out, and you could have said, "Yep. So what?"

I didn't see anything that was them taking shots at you, and I don't understand why there's so much negativity directed towards them, personally, when they've sent almost none your way and certainly didn't do so at the beginning of the thread.

Calling cpaw a "prick" and a "jerk"? Why?

Ed O.

I agree that I was out of line for calling these guys names. I have never really done that before. But I was really frustrated. i was being called a cherry picker ( still don't know what that means ) and being told how much of a disservice I was doing to the board. Instead of ragging on me about how I SHOULD have done this or done that, just go back to your home forum. They spent 50 posts telling me what I should have done. This NEVER happened to me at BBF. Ed, you have to admit there are a lot of BS threads started on here, and this is where they decide to spend their time cracking on people. I want to be over here, but this isn't cool.

 

[drexlersdad]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

yeah like mook said, there is a chance he will completely physically dominate the opposing center from time to time. when this happens, i see no reason why he should not be able to pour in 30 from time to time.

he will be bigger, stronger, and faster, than 90 percent of the nba centers. not to mention as skilled.

 

[pegs]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

As to the original topic: those guys (save Howard) seem like they were primarily centerpieces of their teams' offenses from day one, so the number of shots they got were a higher proportion of their teams' than Oden's should be... plus our pace will be low again, which suppresses stats across the board.

Ed O.

That may be true, but just imagine that Oden destroys some team for 30 points on 80% shooting, as Shaq used to so many times. Now imagine he does that a couple of times in a week or two, just because of circumstance.

Even with all of our other great offensive weapons, if Oden started demonstrating that kind of domination, I could easily see Nate throwing out the game plan and telling everybody, "Oden gets it in the post on every possession."

I'm not saying it's likely, or that Oden is going to be that dominant on the offensive end, but if he were it's not hard to imagine that we throw all the old plans out the window. There's absolutely nothing more devastating than a dominant offensive center.

Yeah, should have explained the low pace, as I referred to in the 2nd post I made in this thread. Your best players average 19, 17, 13 ppg...not exactly high. Compare to Magic: 20, 19, 18...with the other players averaging the same on each team, respectively.

And I wouldn't be surprised if Nate went that way, but there's a good chance that, as a rookie, that won't be happening too often. Nate's a smart guy, though, and a great coach - he'll know what to do with Oden.

His game at to$u was significantly limited by the wrist injury and it taking away quite a bit of flexibility in his primary hand.

It is difficult to quantify how "raw" his offensive game is right now because of the lack of healthy games played over the past few seasons.



If you talked about Bayless and Rudy you'd have a better point

Oh yeah, I forgot about that injury :embarrassed:

Thanks for the input, I completely forgot about Bayless, Rudy, and even Batum coming to the team.


There's also the rookie wall and fatigue to think about. With being out for so long, I just couldn't see Greg doing THAT well. I'd put him at around 9 ppg, 9.5 rpg, 2.5 bpg.

 

[Ed O]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

I agree that I was out of line for calling these guys names. I have never really done that before. But I was really frustrated. i was being called a cherry picker ( still don't know what that means ) and being told how much of a disservice I was doing to the board. Instead of ragging on me about how I SHOULD have done this or done that, just go back to your home forum. They spent 50 posts telling me what I should have done. This NEVER happened to me at BBF. Ed, you have to admit there are a lot of BS threads started on here, and this is where they decide to spend their time cracking on people. I want to be over here, but this isn't cool.

We could do this over PM, but I'm just going back and forth over the board so peeps can see my thoughts.

I understand. You got frustrated and it seemed you and your thread were being picked on.

It'll all be fine.

He said "cherry picking" meaning that you grabbed some players that had certain stats while ignoring others just to prove a point... and he's right. But who cares? I think your point was, "When you think about Oden's upside as a rookie, look at what some of these other guys did!" So their cherry picking comment is not relevant, because you weren't making a projection or an exhaustive study of rookie centers.

As for "home forums": most posters here don't have a home. We Blazers (and some Nets) fans are more restrictive in where we read and post... so I don't feel like asking them to go away/go home is fair or even very meaningful in this case.

But I think we're good.

We good?

Ed O.

 

[pegs]

I have a hard time taking anyone seriously who actually uses "LOL".

And you forget Oden is a CORE player. Blake's job/"speciality" is NOT to score, it's to pass to..ODEN, LMA & ROY unless no time left in shot clock. Do you even watch the blazers? I LOL @ you, because you sound clueless.

And please, this topic is 5 pages of garbage.

Um...okay? You mad or somethin?

Oden is a core player, sure, but I see his specialty being defense. I thought I made it clear I haven't watched too many games - maybe if you actually read my posts, instead of focusing so much of your time on attempting to call me out, you'd realize that.

Keep laughing at me...whatever makes you feel better, buddy. Laugh till you piss yourself for all care.

 

[drexlersdad]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

I agree that I was out of line for calling these guys names. I have never really done that before. But I was really frustrated. i was being called a cherry picker ( still don't know what that means ) and being told how much of a disservice I was doing to the board. Instead of ragging on me about how I SHOULD have done this or done that, just go back to your home forum. They spent 50 posts telling me what I should have done. This NEVER happened to me at BBF. Ed, you have to admit there are a lot of BS threads started on here, and this is where they decide to spend their time cracking on people. I want to be over here, but this isn't cool.

calling you a cherry picker is not really an insult, just saying you chose which players to add, which is your goddamn right. critiquing the centers in your original post caught pretty much EVERYBODY off guard i promise you. your original post was fine, and it has created discussion as well (if you sift through the other stuff), and i think it stands on its own merits.

people are always allowed, heck encouraged, to add other points that they think the original poster could have added. and create discussion about the original post, not the original posters technique.

 

[THE HCP]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

After all that, I will give my prediction. I'm thinking right around 15 and 10. We actually have a lot of fire power on this team now, and that might take away from some of his #'s. I'm thinking BRoy's scoring is going to go down this season. He won't have to take over like he did last year.

 

[cpawfan]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

I agree that I was out of line for calling these guys names. I have never really done that before. But I was really frustrated. i was being called a cherry picker ( still don't know what that means ) and being told how much of a disservice I was doing to the board. Instead of ragging on me about how I SHOULD have done this or done that, just go back to your home forum. They spent 50 posts telling me what I should have done. This NEVER happened to me at BBF. Ed, you have to admit there are a lot of BS threads started on here, and this is where they decide to spend their time cracking on people. I want to be over here, but this isn't cool.

A cherry picker is someone that just does the "best" stuff without doing the hard work. In basketball terms, a player that doesn't get back on defense so he can hang around the offensive basket for an easy bucket is a cherry picker.

Again, no one said you were doing the board a disservice nor was anyone ragging on you.

 

[drexlersdad]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

I would argue that I watched him on Ohio State, and his offensive game wasn't all that great. I mean, sure, he could overpower college players. I'm not sure I could see him doing that consistently in the NBA. From time to time, sure...

Hmm..well, apparently you didn't understand. And/or I didn't explain enough. Blake isn't a main scorer, it's just that his specialty is scoring...and passing. As a role player. Whereas I see Oden's specialty being on the defensive end.

Hmm. Yeah, I know he doesn't get a lot of rebounds, but LMA's not as bad as Rashard in that aspect. Then again, I haven't watched LMA as much as you, I'm just basing this off a couple games. But there's also the thought that possibly, Greg will play alongside Joel - maybe- and Joel usually focuses on rebounding and defense, correct? He probably won't have as much pressure to grab rebounds as Dwight...and rebounding numbers aren't that high nowadays as it is.

Okay, 36 mpg, didn't know that. I should have asked. I guess I just see him getting 25-30. Also taking into account foul trouble, getting back from the injury, etc.

i CAN see him overpowering people at the NBA level, many have already said he is RIGHT NOW one of the strongest players in the NBA.

Saying one of Blakes specialties is scoring is a little off. he can shoot a decent 3 ball, thats about it.

Alot of us are expecting Joel to not play too much this year, he played like 20mpg last year WITHOUT oden.

if oden is a defensive specialist, what does that make joel? people are thinking he will have slightly more impact than joel, on both ends of the floor. and i think joel is an "AVERAGE" center.

 

[THE HCP]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

We could do this over PM, but I'm just going back and forth over the board so peeps can see my thoughts.

I understand. You got frustrated and it seemed you and your thread were being picked on.

It'll all be fine.

He said "cherry picking" meaning that you grabbed some players that had certain stats while ignoring others just to prove a point... and he's right. But who cares? I think your point was, "When you think about Oden's upside as a rookie, look at what some of these other guys did!" So their cherry picking comment is not relevant, because you weren't making a projection or an exhaustive study of rookie centers.

As for "home forums": most posters here don't have a home. We Blazers (and some Nets) fans are more restrictive in where we read and post... so I don't feel like asking them to go away/go home is fair or even very meaningful in this case.

But I think we're good.

We good?

Ed O.

I'm good. You know me man. I come on here to have fun, and VERY RARELY give a good valid opinion on basketball. I'm secure in my knowledge of hoops. But I will use the ignore feature for the first time. Thanks for talking man!

 

[maxiep]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

I would argue that I watched him on Ohio State, and his offensive game wasn't all that great. I mean, sure, he could overpower college players. I'm not sure I could see him doing that consistently in the NBA. From time to time, sure...

Hmm..well, apparently you didn't understand. And/or I didn't explain enough. Blake isn't a main scorer, it's just that his specialty is scoring...and passing. As a role player. Whereas I see Oden's specialty being on the defensive end.

Hmm. Yeah, I know he doesn't get a lot of rebounds, but LMA's not as bad as Rashard in that aspect. Then again, I haven't watched LMA as much as you, I'm just basing this off a couple games. But there's also the thought that possibly, Greg will play alongside Joel - maybe- and Joel usually focuses on rebounding and defense, correct? He probably won't have as much pressure to grab rebounds as Dwight...and rebounding numbers aren't that high nowadays as it is.

Okay, 36 mpg, didn't know that. I should have asked. I guess I just see him getting 25-30. Also taking into account foul trouble, getting back from the injury, etc.

What I'm interested in seeing--once he shakes the rust off--is what offensive moves he's developed during his injury. The word is that he's been working on a mid-range jumper ala David Robinson as well as using the backboard like Tim Duncan.

That being said, I see him being used as a garbage man his first year with the team. The team will run the offense through Roy and Aldridge and letting Oden clean up the scraps. They'll be an occasional P&R, but I think Nate will ease him into the offense.

 

[maxiep]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

A cherry picker is someone that just does the "best" stuff without doing the hard work. In basketball terms, a player that doesn't get back on defense so he can hang around the offensive basket for an easy bucket is a cherry picker.

That's called a cherry picker? In Portland, we refer to that as a #50.

 

[cpawfan]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

That's called a cherry picker? In Portland, we refer to that as a #50.

I would never go so low as to call someone a ZBo

 

[Magnum]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

3 pages and nobody has put up stats for additional C's picked number 1...

If Oden is going to be anywhere near as good as those from the original post, I think most in here are underestimating him. I expect big things from him. More than I would have last year if he hadn't been hurt. I'm expecting 15, 10 and 3.

 

[Minstrel]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

Offensively, he's average.

Even forgetting his injury, that's not the impression I got in watching Oden in college (and this was clearly before I had any idea my favourite team would be getting him). For his age, I thought his offensive game was surprisingly polished and deft. He had really good footwork and mobility around the hoop, and a nice touch with either hand. What I actually didn't see from him, that I expected going in, was him simply overpowering players with his physical gifts. He had the size and athleticism to simply go over and through any college defender, but didn't, by and large. As a result, I think he's ahead of the curve...he has a nicely developing offensive game and the physical traits he can exploit to be punishing to defenses.

I don't think Oden will be a premium offensive player as a rookie, but I think he can be a 25 PPG scorer in his prime (with a 30 PPG upside).

Here's a new comparison: Tim Duncan with greater power and athleticism.

 

[DennisRodman]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

I would never go so low as to call someone a ZBo

I am ZBo and I"M RICH BIAAATCH!!!!!!!

 

[BlazersBlood]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

Wow, I saw nothing wrong with the original post. If anything it was a reality check for Blazers fans.

Every Blazers fan I know projects Oden to score anywhere from 12-18ppg his rookie year. I didn't realize Ewing, Shaq, Olajuwon, & Robinson all scored over 20ppg. That is very impressive. And the inclusion of Howard was valid IMO as well since it's a comparison of somebody whom most people compare Oden's offensive game to right now.

I think a lot of people are underestimating Oden coming into this year offensively. How many centers in the league are going to be able to neutralize him 1-on-1? His footwork is great, he's got soft hands, he won't be the primary focus of opposing defenses, he can finish with both hands, and his shooting touch has improved from college.

My prediction is 16ppg 10rpg 3 blocks.

 

[maxiep]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

I agree with those who look at those in the subject group and don't think Oden will match their ppg. None of those teams have the level of talent we do. On a typical lottery team, Oden would have been a #1 option. On this team, he'll be the third option at best.

How the hell do you defend a team where GREG FREAKING ODEN is the third option? How do you defend this team?

 

[gatorpops]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

So you believe there is zero reason to discuss if the original list is appropriate as you say below to give a framework to judge Oden's performance?

Personally, I see zero reason to set the bar at the performance level of players that scored 20+ PPG as rookies, especially ones that had multiple years of college.



In 35 games, Walton averaged 12.8 PPG and 12.6 RPG as a 22 year old rookie

This what you should have posted at the beginning when you joined in and then stopped posting as you would have nothing else to add to the thread.

Thank you for the stats, they are helpful. Oden will likely do as well at least IMO.

You sound so much like the Lawyers and Politicians who just argue continually without really adding anything. I do not come to this sight to argue but to see other peoples ideas about the particular threads that I visit.

I have seen some of your posts on BBF and have found them helpful, however this has not been one of those threads. I nearly didn't go past a 6-10 posts, but it made me a little angry so I kept reading. I was glad I did, because I finally got to some helpful info.

Peace.

g

 

[oldmangrouch]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

Why are you even on here right now? Are you on here just to fuck with me? Are you even a Blazer fan. You know everybody came over here and they all complained about how bad it was over on BBF, but I was never treated like this in my 4 years over there.

It's like when a band first becomes popular. The "noob" fans are despised by the people who saw them play in some little dive bar back when they were starting out.

The BBF refugees aren't going to be liked by the old-timers on here. We are invading their space. It is just the circle of life or something.

 

[cpawfan]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

Even forgetting his injury, that's not the impression I got in watching Oden in college (and this was clearly before I had any idea my favourite team would be getting him). For his age, I thought his offensive game was surprisingly polished and deft. He had really good footwork and mobility around the hoop, and a nice touch with either hand. What I actually didn't see from him, that I expected going in, was him simply overpowering players with his physical gifts. He had the size and athleticism to simply go over and through any college defender, but didn't, by and large. As a result, I think he's ahead of the curve...he has a nicely developing offensive game and the physical traits he can exploit to be punishing to defenses.

I don't think Oden will be a premium offensive player as a rookie, but I think he can be a 25 PPG scorer in his prime (with a 30 PPG upside).

Here's a new comparison: Tim Duncan with greater power and athleticism.

My belief is that part of what you saw of him in college was an effort to avoid foul trouble. He also was able to score that way because a lot of the players he was going against weren't able to challenge his shot.

 

[BlazersBlood]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

It's like when a band first becomes popular. The "noob" fans are despised by the people who saw them play in some little dive bar back when they were starting out.

The BBF refugees aren't going to be liked by the old-timers on here. We are invading their space. It is just the circle of life or something.

What if we bring our own groupies?

 

[Tortimer]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

I also didn't see anything wrong with the original post. I just skimmed all the posts but what is the problem I just don't get it. I also think many are underestimating Oden offensively this year. It will take time but by the end of the year I think he will be right there with LMA and Roy for being an important part of our offense.

My prediction is 15.8ppg 11.2rpg 3.2blocks. I think the start of the year Oden might only be averaging 10+ppg but by the last month of the season Oden will be averaging 18ppg.

 

[oldmangrouch]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

So you believe there is zero reason to discuss if the original list is appropriate as you say below to give a framework to judge Oden's performance?

Personally, I see zero reason to set the bar at the performance level of players that scored 20+ PPG as rookies, especially ones that had multiple years of college.



In 35 games, Walton averaged 12.8 PPG and 12.6 RPG as a 22 year old rookie

I agree that it isn't a fair yardstick. OTOH, I have no doubt that it is also the yardstick that the media will embrace (and brainwash the casual fan with).

 

[PapaG]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

As to the original topic: those guys (save Howard) seem like they were primarily centerpieces of their teams' offenses from day one, so the number of shots they got were a higher proportion of their teams' than Oden's should be... plus our pace will be low again, which suppresses stats across the board.

Ed O.

I agree with this completely, and because of it, I think it's probably a bit more fair to Oden to use Howard's numbers as a point of comparison. I just don't see Oden getting enough shots to average much more than 15 ppg this season.

 

[PapaG]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

I would argue that I watched him on Ohio State, and his offensive game wasn't all that great. I mean, sure, he could overpower college players. I'm not sure I could see him doing that consistently in the NBA. From time to time, sure...

He had a broken wrist at Ohio State and shot his FTs with his off-hand the entire season. That's one reason you didn't see much of an offensive game from him, yet I even disagree with that viewpoint. He has a decent jump hook that is unblockable, and he has solid 15' range from the high post.

 

[pegs]

Re: Big Time Centers Rookie #'s

What I'm interested in seeing--once he shakes the rust off--is what offensive moves he's developed during his injury. The word is that he's been working on a mid-range jumper ala David Robinson as well as using the backboard like Tim Duncan.

That being said, I see him being used as a garbage man his first year with the team. The team will run the offense through Roy and Aldridge and letting Oden clean up the scraps. They'll be an occasional P&R, but I think Nate will ease him into the offense.

I'm just as interested in that as you - and I feel the same way about the offense, thinking that most likely Outlaw will be ahead of Oden, too.

You can rarely read coaches minds, though, so who really knows. Also, Rudy might eclipse all players as a main scorer - that's not out of the question, is it? (By the way, if there's a Rudy thread, ya mind showing it to me?)

i CAN see him overpowering people at the NBA level, many have already said he is RIGHT NOW one of the strongest players in the NBA.

Saying one of Blakes specialties is scoring is a little off. he can shoot a decent 3 ball, thats about it.

Alot of us are expecting Joel to not play too much this year, he played like 20mpg last year WITHOUT oden.

if oden is a defensive specialist, what does that make joel? people are thinking he will have slightly more impact than joel, on both ends of the floor. and i think joel is an "AVERAGE" center.

Hmm many? Idk, I can't really judge that until I see it. We'll see, I guess.

And Joel will probably get a little more or just as much time without Channing Frye (and James Jones - did he play combo forward in Portland, too?) So I still think he might eat away at a few of Greg's minutes.

Joel is a guy to give the other bigs a rest...and to take place when the other bigs get into foul trouble. He's a defensive specialist, sure, and he is or will be average in comparison to Greg. At this point, he's the veteran, Greg's a rookie. This may mean something with fouls, fatigue, etc....or this might not.

Even forgetting his injury, that's not the impression I got in watching Oden in college (and this was clearly before I had any idea my favourite team would be getting him). For his age, I thought his offensive game was surprisingly polished and deft. He had really good footwork and mobility around the hoop, and a nice touch with either hand. What I actually didn't see from him, that I expected going in, was him simply overpowering players with his physical gifts. He had the size and athleticism to simply go over and through any college defender, but didn't, by and large. As a result, I think he's ahead of the curve...he has a nicely developing offensive game and the physical traits he can exploit to be punishing to defenses.

I don't think Oden will be a premium offensive player as a rookie, but I think he can be a 25 PPG scorer in his prime (with a 30 PPG upside).

Here's a new comparison: Tim Duncan with greater power and athleticism.

Actually, I thought he would be comparable to David Robinson in style - without as much scoring, because of teammates.

He had a broken wrist at Ohio State and shot his FTs with his off-hand the entire season. That's one reason you didn't see much of an offensive game from him, yet I even disagree with that viewpoint. He has a decent jump hook that is unblockable, and he has solid 15' range from the high post.

I know, cpaw brought it up...my fault, I simply forgot. Actually, that gave him an advantage in college that I completely forgot about until now - he is most likely very good with both hands. I'll think about that for a while.

 

[dreamcloud]

Re: I have a hard time taking anyone seriously who actually uses "LOL".

Um...okay? You mad or somethin?

Oden is a core player, sure, but I see his specialty being defense. I thought I made it clear I haven't watched too many games - maybe if you actually read my posts, instead of focusing so much of your time on attempting to call me out, you'd realize that.

Keep laughing at me...whatever makes you feel better, buddy. Laugh till you piss yourself for all care.

Call you out? I can't 'lol' at a statement that I found ridiculous just because I didn't give you sufficient time to make an explanation? You're the one who replied with the antagonizing remark because you decided to take it personally.

But whatever anyways, let's drop this, no point in discussing this