Game Thread PLAYOFFS: ROUND 1, GAME 1: BLAZERS @ LAKERS - AUGUST 18, 2020, TUESDAY, 6:00, TNT & NBCSNW

[BonesJones]

 

[THE HCP]

that may be, but for the Blazers this season:

PER: Zach 9.9....Gabriel 10.3
TS%: Zach .538....Gabriel .606
Reb%: Zach 12.4%....Gabriel 12.6%
Block%: Zach 1.5%....Gabriel 2.5%
winshares/48: Zach .052....Gabriel .075
BoxPM: Zach -3.4....Gabriel -3.8

obviously there's a sample size issue with Zach....and with Gabriel for that matter. And Zach had the injury; and he's a starter so tends to play more against 1st unit opponents than Gabriel

but if Zach was twice the player, those stats above, which tend to gauge impact and efficiency, would probably not show Gabriel leading in all but one metric

Zach has Harkless level impact, at best. But I'd agree that Gabriel is not at that level.

it's going to be a baptism of fire for Gabriel going against AD.....yikes!! I think we know where the Lakers will go on offense quite often

You can post all the stats you want FAMS, but........NOT ONE GM IN THE LEAGUE WOULD TAKE GABRIEL OVER ZAC.

 

[AldoTrapani]

You can post all the stats you want FAMS, but........NOT ONE GM IN THE LEAGUE WOULD TAKE GABRIEL OVER ZAC.

Because he hasn’t had the chance yet. Still can’t believe Zach Collins was a top 10 pick

 

[mook]

You can post all the stats you want FAMS, but........NOT ONE GM IN THE LEAGUE WOULD TAKE GABRIEL OVER ZAC.

Gabriel has definitely led more of a journeyman's career so far. But honestly, how many times have you said to yourself, "Thank god Zach is coming back in for Gabriel"? Because I don't think I ever have.

The stats kind of follow the eye test. Gabriel is a bit more of a quickness and hustle-type of defender, whereas Zach is more about angles and positioning and length. But honestly I don't think they have that much of a difference in impact on the court. Both are opportunistic (ie, pretty poor) offensive players.

In this particular matchup I think I'd prefer Zach's length against AD's length, but even there I'm not absolutely certain. Whatever big out there is going to have to constantly scramble to cover AD and LBJ.

For me the bigger issue is just depth. If Zach sits out for much of this series, we're going to have a lot of foul problems. And a lot of Hezonja.

 

[Labinot41]

Zac is twice the player Gabriel is. On both ends.

You didn't watch the bubble. Zach is a weak pussy, his hands are soft, i didn't see anything good from him in the bubble so far

 

[Almir]

Mavs hot so hosed by refs yesterday
they were right there with the Clips when Kristaps got tossed for his 2nd weak tech
i was really hoping to see Mavs pull off the upset
league gonna protect clips until we see a clips lakers WCF
wow really frustrating – also worthy of note – Luke is a total stud

Let’s hope Lakers see similar ref protection tonight!

This is what i speak about. Look what oposite fans wrote. And they calculate on refs help. More then ever i wish Portland to win.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Gabriel has definitely led more of a journeyman's career so far. But honestly, how many times have you said to yourself, "Thank god Zach is coming back in for Gabriel"? Because I don't think I ever have.

The stats kind of follow the eye test. Gabriel is a bit more of a quickness and hustle-type of defender, whereas Zach is more about angles and positioning and length. But honestly I don't think they have that much of a difference in impact on the court. Both are opportunistic (ie, pretty poor) offensive players.

In this particular matchup I think I'd prefer Zach's length against AD's length, but even there I'm not absolutely certain. Whatever big out there is going to have to constantly scramble to cover AD and LBJ.

For me the bigger issue is just depth. If Zach sits out for much of this series, we're going to have a lot of foul problems. And a lot of Hezonja.

Last year Zach was awesome in the playoffs. I think the hope if he was playing this series is he may improve from what he has shown the last few weeks.

Now this season I agree Wenyen and Zach don't appear much different. At that level Zach was a major disappointment.

 

[Serbian]

You didn't watch the bubble. Zach is a weak pussy, his hands are soft, i didn't see anything good from him in the bubble so far

Exactly. Zach is the worst blazer player by a mile. Zach regressed to a level that he should not be starter in G league. Absolute trash of a player. He needs to be traded asap. Trash . Give me Gabriel anytime anyday over trash zach. Have you guys been watchin zach? Most atrocious player i have seen in long time. The notion that zach is a starter should tell you everything about stotts. He is all about loyalty no balls. Anyone remember in playoffs when Aminu was total trash and he kept starting game in game out vs Denver?

 

[Orion Bailey]

Gabriel has definitely led more of a journeyman's career so far. But honestly, how many times have you said to yourself, "Thank god Zach is coming back in for Gabriel"? Because I don't think I ever have.

The stats kind of follow the eye test. Gabriel is a bit more of a quickness and hustle-type of defender, whereas Zach is more about angles and positioning and length. But honestly I don't think they have that much of a difference in impact on the court. Both are opportunistic (ie, pretty poor) offensive players.

In this particular matchup I think I'd prefer Zach's length against AD's length, but even there I'm not absolutely certain. Whatever big out there is going to have to constantly scramble to cover AD and LBJ.

For me the bigger issue is just depth. If Zach sits out for much of this series, we're going to have a lot of foul problems. And a lot of Hezonja.

okay then one must ask how many games have they both played in and been healthy ?

 

[andalusian]

For crying out loud, Zach had a serious Shoulder injury and he is still rounding into shape. His defense on Millsap is what got the Blazers into the WCF last year - so time to cool your jets, let him take his time and enjoy what he brings to the table. The team is going to miss him in Game 1, for sure.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

Ringer doesn't expect Blazers to have a chance, due to this: "The Blazers lack the type of wings who can equally defend speedy guards—like Thompson did against Lillard in all three of Golden State’s playoff series victories over Portland—tricky big guards like James Harden, and beefy scorers like LeBron. The Blazers don’t have anyone capable of reliably shooting 3s and defending a star."
"The Blazers are currently fielding Mario Hezonja and Carmelo Anthony at forward. Last season, Hezonja famously blocked LeBron’s would-be game-winning jumper while he was still playing for the Knicks. But it was a lone highlight in hours worth of lowlights—he shoots only 31 percent from 3, makes poor decisions with the ball in his hands, and struggles to defend man-to-man with any consistency. Anthony is a bucket-getter and is trying on defense, but he’s not a star-stopper. The two forwards obviously aren’t solely responsible for the Blazers hemorrhaging points (they ranked 27th in defensive rating this season), or their lack of ability to rack up steals and deflections (27th in opponent turnovers), or their failure to end possessions (tied for 27th in defensive rebounding). But they are part of the issue."

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/8/18/21372596/portland-trail-blazers-damian-lillard-lakers

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

Ringer does like Trent: "Trent is the type of defensive playmaker the Blazers need, someone who can get in the passing lanes and cause havoc. This season, Portland ranked only 26th in deflections, 28th in defensive loose balls recovered, and 29th in charges drawn, according to NBA Advanced Stats. But at only 6-foot-5 and 209 pounds, Trent is at his best defending guards and smaller wings. The Blazers still need someone to defend bigger, stronger players like LeBron."

They also discuss some ideas how Portland might get a wing (eventually).
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/8/18/21372596/portland-trail-blazers-damian-lillard-lakers

 

[Jon]

 

[SharpesTriumph]

You can post all the stats you want FAMS, but........NOT ONE GM IN THE LEAGUE WOULD TAKE GABRIEL OVER ZAC.

GM's trade for players based on potential, for an entire season at the least or a timeline many years out for younger players... What we expect in the next couple weeks of playoffs for these two players has almost zero relevancy to your statement.

 

[wizenheimer]

You can post all the stats you want FAMS, but........NOT ONE GM IN THE LEAGUE WOULD TAKE GABRIEL OVER ZAC.

that may be true

but what also may be true is that not one GM...except for maybe one....would still be seeing the high potential some of you guys see. He has significantly under-performed the expectations of a 10th pick

and I know people don't like stats when they cut against their bias, but stats do have value in gauging impact and efficiency. In Zach's case, IMO, his numbers accurately reflect what he's brought to the floor. They match the eyeball pretty well

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

From ESPN:

• The matchups: "I didn't like how either [LeBron James or Anthony Davis] played in the seeding games," an Eastern Conference assistant coach said. "But I think they're not gonna let Damian Lillard come off and just jack 3s like he has been. I'd assume Portland will double-team Davis a ton, so how the Lakers handle that will be important. Can Danny Green, who made shots in one seeding game, make shots?"
  
  
• The Lakers' poor shooting efficiency: "The one thing to me is with LeBron, the plane was still on the runway ... I think he's as good as anybody at knowing what needs to be done and when it needs to be done, and he wasn't really trying to kill himself in those games. Other than the Clippers game, it didn't look like he was going yet. You can talk about the shooting, but realistically, if he played well in a number of those games, you'd say they are where they need to be."
  

 

[wizenheimer]

For crying out loud, Zach had a serious Shoulder injury and he is still rounding into shape. .

Nurk had an even more serious injury and missed 18 months vs Zach missing 7 months. Funny how Nurk didn't need 9 games to round into shape

Nurk had established his game before the injury. What people might consider is that Zach had established his game before his injury too....and we just saw 8 more games of it

Last year Zach was awesome in the playoffs. .

I know you were just talking, but you might want to reconsider the label "awesome"

averaging 6.8 points and 3.6 rebounds in 17 minutes doesn't fit awesome in too many circles

if you look at his advanced numbers in last year's playoffs, they weren't really any better than what Aminu or Harkless posted in the playoffs. And those two posted their numbers averaging 8-13 more minutes a game than Zach, and did so as starters against opposing starting units

******************************************************

again, I'm not saying give up on Zach or that he's trash or anything else like that. I don't see the potential and promise many of you do, but I could be missing clues.

maybe it's because we recently went thru the "he's-a-great-athlete-with-bright-future-and-potential-and-big-men-take-longer" stuff with Meyers; and TRob for that matter; and Freeland too. Or maybe it's because as we wait for the light to go on over Zach's head we're burning thru Dame's prime. I'm just not very patient for potential to turn into reality any more. Enough with the 5 year projects while Dame ages

and yeah, I know: 'but his defense!' My view on that is that his defense has flaws. He's not nearly as good on the perimeter as some are alleging. And much of the NBA game is played on the perimeter. And Zach is simply not strong in his core. I'm not sure he ever will be but I'd expect he'll get stronger. His anemic rebounding numbers reflect his strength though. Aminu was a better rebounder

but Zach's offense is weak, and IMO Portland needs to have 2-way starters rather than a defensive specialist at one of the forward positions. That could change if the Blazers could add an elite SF, but one doesn't appear to be heading our way. We just moved on (thankfully) from 4 years of Aminu and Harkless as role-players-starting. Sure seems like we're headed for a repeat

 

[mook]

okay then one must ask how many games have they both played in and been healthy ?

Not many. But when Gabriel has played, he has replaced Zachs production.

 

[wizenheimer]

Ringer does like Trent: "Trent is the type of defensive playmaker the Blazers need, someone who can get in the passing lanes and cause havoc. This season, Portland ranked only 26th in deflections, 28th in defensive loose balls recovered, and 29th in charges drawn, according to NBA Advanced Stats. But at only 6-foot-5 and 209 pounds, Trent is at his best defending guards and smaller wings. The Blazers still need someone to defend bigger, stronger players like LeBron."

They also discuss some ideas how Portland might get a wing (eventually).
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/8/18/21372596/portland-trail-blazers-damian-lillard-lakers

good article...thanks for link

and it details what most of us have been saying about the Blazers desperately needing a major upgrade at SF to step up to contender status

I agree that Trent is much better suited as a SG rather than a SF. He's too small to consistently defend a lot of NBA SF's. They are just too big and too good

Portland's SF options since Batum...my god: Harkless, Aminu, Gerald Henderson, Allen Crabbe, Evan Turner, Jake Layman, Pat Connaughton, Nik Stauskas. That's a litany of mediocrity and flaws. Hood showed some promise but he'll be 28 years old coming off an Achilles rupture. Nobody will confuse him for an all-star. And IIRC, both Ariza and Melo will be eligible for Medicare next season

Portland needs an elite wing. More than that, Portland needs an elite wing who is a 2-way player. Where they find one is a mystery

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

their failure to end possessions (tied for 27th in defensive rebounding). "

I didn't realize we were that bad of rebounders.

 

[Hoopguru]

This game / series will be determined by Portland 3 point shooting.

 

[THE HCP]

Because he hasn’t had the chance yet. Still can’t believe Zach Collins was a top 10 pick

My man, he’s getting a chance EVERYDAY in practice. You honestly think Stotts is playing a LESS talented player on purpose?

 

[THE HCP]

You didn't watch the bubble. Zach is a weak pussy, his hands are soft, i didn't see anything good from him in the bubble so far

Are you saying I didn’t watch the Bubble games?

 

[andalusian]

Nurk had an even more serious injury and missed 18 months vs Zach missing 7 months. Funny how Nurk didn't need 9 games to round into shape

So, you asked your question and provided the answer - 18 months vs. 7.

Nurk was better before and he still is better, but the extra time Nurk had allowed him to get back to where he was - where Zach has not yet.

 

[GhostOfPGA]

Fuck Chairman Peking James
Fuck the unibrow having motherfucker
Fuck “I’d shoot on Jesus” Kuzma
Fuck Dwight Howard and his suspect ass injury
Fuck JR Smith and his slow self
Fuck Mr. Shaqtin a Fool MVP
FUCK LOS ANGELES
FUCK THE LAKERS

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Nurk had an even more serious injury and missed 18 months vs Zach missing 7 months. Funny how Nurk didn't need 9 games to round into shape

Nurk had established his game before the injury. What people might consider is that Zach had established his game before his injury too....and we just saw 8 more games of it



I know you were just talking, but you might want to reconsider the label "awesome"

averaging 6.8 points and 3.6 rebounds in 17 minutes doesn't fit awesome in too many circles

if you look at his advanced numbers in last year's playoffs, they weren't really any better than what Aminu or Harkless posted in the playoffs. And those two posted their numbers averaging 8-13 more minutes a game than Zach, and did so as starters against opposing starting units

******************************************************

again, I'm not saying give up on Zach or that he's trash or anything else like that. I don't see the potential and promise many of you do, but I could be missing clues.

maybe it's because we recently went thru the "he's-a-great-athlete-with-bright-future-and-potential-and-big-men-take-longer" stuff with Meyers; and TRob for that matter; and Freeland too. Or maybe it's because as we wait for the light to go on over Zach's head we're burning thru Dame's prime. I'm just not very patient for potential to turn into reality any more. Enough with the 5 year projects while Dame ages

and yeah, I know: 'but his defense!' My view on that is that his defense has flaws. He's not nearly as good on the perimeter as some are alleging. And much of the NBA game is played on the perimeter. And Zach is simply not strong in his core. I'm not sure he ever will be but I'd expect he'll get stronger. His anemic rebounding numbers reflect his strength though. Aminu was a better rebounder

but Zach's offense is weak, and IMO Portland needs to have 2-way starters rather than a defensive specialist at one of the forward positions. That could change if the Blazers could add an elite SF, but one doesn't appear to be heading our way. We just moved on (thankfully) from 4 years of Aminu and Harkless as role-players-starting. Sure seems like we're headed for a repeat

Meyers was a gimmick, the guy never had a clue on defense and never had potential much beyond Matt Bonner. He has the offense of a SG without handles or drives, and the defense of a bad SG at that.

I agree with many of your sentiments on Zach. Maybe instead of awesome last year in the playoffs I should have said "useful rotational player" and that if he improved as normally expected from a second year player he could become a great bench player or acceptable but below average starter someday... I do rate his defense greater than you. But offense is extremely important, and in general much more than defense. Zach had about as bad as a 3rd year as was possible, so I'm happy to get a better option if Neil is able to in the offseason. I do think there have been many young players at Zach level that eventually become useful rotational players later in their career. Robin Lopez, Joel Pryzbilla, Aminu, Ed Davis, Steve Blake, etc. Zach needs to be compared to the potential of those level players and not average to above average NBA starters. Finally, Zach position may ultimately be best as the backup C, which with Nurkic injury history is important, and only have small stretches of his play at PF.

 

[wizenheimer]

So, you asked your question and provided the answer - 18 months vs. 7.

Nurk was better before and he still is better, but the extra time Nurk had allowed him to get back to where he was - where Zach has not yet.

 

[B-Roy]

Not many. But when Gabriel has played, he has replaced Zachs production.

He also fouls at the same extraordinarily high rate!

 

[wizenheimer]

Are you saying I didn’t watch the Bubble games?

yep you missed them....you don't know how to wear that mask properly

 

[SharpesTriumph]

good article...thanks for link

and it details what most of us have been saying about the Blazers desperately needing a major upgrade at SF to step up to contender status

I agree that Trent is much better suited as a SG rather than a SF. He's too small to consistently defend a lot of NBA SF's. They are just too big and too good

Portland's SF options since Batum...my god: Harkless, Aminu, Gerald Henderson, Allen Crabbe, Evan Turner, Jake Layman, Pat Connaughton, Nik Stauskas. That's a litany of mediocrity and flaws. Hood showed some promise but he'll be 28 years old coming off an Achilles rupture. Nobody will confuse him for an all-star. And IIRC, both Ariza and Melo will be eligible for Medicare next season

Portland needs an elite wing. More than that, Portland needs an elite wing who is a 2-way player. Where they find one is a mystery

An elite 2 way wing is the hardest position to fill in the NBA. Doubly so when we have near max salary in one guard spot, super max at the other spot, along with our C getting a raise after next season.

Trent is fine at SF next season in 2020... the problem for him is he doesnt have the handle to play SG unless we had a Batum style SF. So now we would need to find an elite two way wing that is the hardest to position to fill, but also have that wing handle the ball and setup offense?

Now in 2005 Trent would have trouble at SF, but hell this year OKC played 3 PG's around 6' for half the game together. Trent will be fine at SF next year. Sure Trent will have trouble with LeBron or Kawhi at SF, but we will have trouble no mater what with them. If Trent is at SF we do need a bigger defensive PF that can rebound and a bigger wing defensive option on the bench.