Real issue I'm dealing with - atheism vs judaism

[magnifier661]

First, I do not try to discredit Christianity any more than say that God is bullshit and Jesus is bullshit (another way of saying god is BS) and saying that the bible is just a bunch of stories. That's also what I believe about Judaism. I don't believe there is anything but stories in the Torah. I think it is wrong for people to use any religious text to hurt actual people. The Torah has most of the worst teachings of God in my mind, it is extremely misogynistic and homophobic, and requires the death sentence for adultery and supports slavery and on and on and on. I am not a believer in that stuff. Which religion does not come into play. In fact, I actually like some of the teachings in the new testament, love your neighbor, turn the other cheek, help the sick and the poor.

But just because I turn on the religious aspects of Judaism doesn't mean I don't take pride in my heritage, appreciate the customs, respect the family and try to learn positive lessons from the very text I think is overall wrong. Also, i like the basic idea that Jews believe in action not belief. This idea holds a lot of sway with me, as I believe myself to be someone of noble action and ignoble thoughts.

My personal views are a hodgepodge of ideas and concepts I have gleaned by living my life. And being Jewish is part of that life.

I think that is what you should explain to your child then, if you haven't done so yet. I think its important to tell him just exactly why you think "God is bullshit" and do so in the passionate way that you are relaying to me.

 

[Further]

I think that is what you should explain to your child then, if you haven't done so yet. I think its important to tell him just exactly why you think "God is bullshit" and do so in the passionate way that you are relaying to me.

I don't want to tell him WHY I think that I think God is BS although I will let him now I don't believe in god, I just want him to know that his views are accepted by me and his grandfather. I just want to tell him that he can still be proud of his heritage and participate in cultural aspects including some religious ceremonies without believing in God. Much of it is a way for our family to interact more than anything else.

My reasons for WHY would come later, after his views are very well thought out. I would like him to ruminate on those ideas for a few years on his own, as my interference in WHY seems selfish.

 

[crandc]

I never mentioned Africa, so not sure how someone thought I said you can't be African and Jewish. Of course a person can be both.

Being Jewish is BOTH culture and religion. So a person can embrace the culture as both GOD and I do while not following the religion.

The basic definition of a Jew is one born of a Jewish mother (or more rarely converted) who has not accepted any other faith. So yes, an atheist can be a Jew but a Christian cannot. I have known Orthodox Jews who consider me Jewish but not "an observer of the Commandments" as they put it. However, there is no such thing as a "Jew for Jesus".

 

[magnifier661]

I never mentioned Africa, so not sure how someone thought I said you can't be African and Jewish. Of course a person can be both.

Being Jewish is BOTH culture and religion. So a person can embrace the culture as both GOD and I do while not following the religion.

The basic definition of a Jew is one born of a Jewish mother (or more rarely converted) who has not accepted any other faith. So yes, an atheist can be a Jew but a Christian cannot. I have known Orthodox Jews who consider me Jewish but not "an observer of the Commandments" as they put it. However, there is no such thing as a "Jew for Jesus".

Being an atheist requires faith so that is blown out of the water.

 

[Further]

Being an atheist requires faith so that is blown out of the water.

you being stuck on a bullshit premise doesn't affect reality.

 

[Denny Crane]

because its a double standard. Everything is not always fair. But being a Christian means they are not Jewish, because Jews do not believe in Jesus as a prophet. That's it. Simple.


As far as being Judaism being both religious and culture, that's what it is. In some context it's one, in some it's the other, in some it's both, but in none are Christians also Jews.

Messianic Jews are still Jews.

 

[Denny Crane]

I'll add that being born to a Jewish mother is definitively ethnicity, and you cannot undo it.

That is, conversion doesn't undo the circumstances of one's birth.

 

[Further]

Messianic Jews are still Jews.

I'll add that being born to a Jewish mother is definitively ethnicity, and you cannot undo it.

That is, conversion doesn't undo the circumstances of one's birth.

Honestly, no, Messianic Jews are not Jews. At least as judged by almost every Jew you might ask. I understand and have spoke much about the paradoxical facts and opinions on this, but regardless of the fine points of the arguments, Jews not only view Messianic Jews as not Jews, but they see them as traitors and ridicule them. If Jews don't consider you Jewish, then you are not Jewish.

Also, the conversion is viewed to supersede ethnicity. Hence, my brother married a non-Jew who went to synagogue and took classes and became a convert. Her children are now in a Jewish line and are Jewish even though her bloodline was not Jewish. Upon conversion her bloodline became Jewish. Likewise, if one converts to a different religion, they are USUALLY VIEWED as no longer Jewish.

 

[Further]

These issues have all been debated extensively rabbi's in Isreal. Their views do differ. I am giving more the view of the average American Jew.

 

[Denny Crane]

What's the second word in Messianic Jew?"

I think they are fools, but in religious terms are sinners or blasphemers.

Why wouldn't "messianic" apply to "Jew" as "orthodox" does? A different flavor.

The ethnicity part is very real. There are even two classes of ethnic Jew: Sephardic and Ashkenazi. A Jew is one of these regardless of being Messianic.

 

[Further]

whats the first word in Pope-on-a-rope?

 

[Further]

What's the second word in Messianic Jew?"

I think they are fools, but in religious terms are sinners or blasphemers.

Why wouldn't "messianic" apply to "Jew" as "orthodox" does? A different flavor.

The ethnicity part is very real. There are even two classes of ethnic Jew: Sephardic and Ashkenazi. A Jew is one of these regardless of being Messianic.

They would still be considered genetically related and in the bloodline, and would most likely find fewer hurdles to converting back, but they believe specifically in something that Jews view anti-jewish. Is this a case of the shell game, the definition changing as soon as you choose which words you subscribe too, yes. But regardless of this multi-faceted word that has moving definitions, Jews generally agree, you believe in Jesus and that's a huge NoNo.

 

[Denny Crane]

whats the first word in Pope-on-a-rope?

Non sequitur.

Maybe the most orthodox jews would have the very same reaction to you being agnostic/atheist. You're a sinner/blasphemer in the same sense: you disobey the law (and 10 commandments).

I think you do have a flaw in your reasoning that mags stumbled onto. What I said isn't a flaw (born a jew, always a jew).

 

[Further]

I'm not sure this is a good analogy but here you go.

Think about someone who is 25% black and 75% white. They may look like Tom Petty, in which case most of society would refer to them as white. If they look like Jimi Hendrix most people who refer to them as black.

You are talking about someone who looks like Adam Carolla (might have a touch of black) but always wears uniforms from the south during the civil war, hates rap, loves barry manilow. You say fuck the curly hair, that guy is as white as white can be.

 

[Further]

Non sequitur.

Maybe the most orthodox jews would have the very same reaction to you being agnostic/atheist. You're a sinner/blasphemer in the same sense: you disobey the law (and 10 commandments).

I think you do have a flaw in your reasoning that mags stumbled onto. What I said isn't a flaw (born a jew, always a jew).

I am talking about how we are viewed. Actually, most orthodox would still consider me a Jew, just a non-observant one. So I feel pretty good about that. But you could be right that THEY might see a messianic Jew as still a Jew. But average Jewish American culture most certainly does not.

 

[Denny Crane]

I'm not sure this is a good analogy but here you go.

Think about someone who is 25% black and 75% white. They may look like Tom Petty, in which case most of society would refer to them as white. If they look like Jimi Hendrix most people who refer to them as black.

You are talking about someone who looks like Adam Carolla (might have a touch of black) but always wears uniforms from the south during the civil war, hates rap, loves barry manilow. You say fuck the curly hair, that guy is as white as white can be.

Born of a Jewish mother, you're black no matter what. (Jewish).

Do you think the Nazis would have rounded up the Messianic Jews along with the others? I have zero doubt.

 

[Further]

Born of a Jewish mother, you're black no matter what. (Jewish).

Do you think the Nazis would have rounded up the Messianic Jews along with the others? I have zero doubt.

I'm sure they would. And if something like that came about I would consider all gays, blacks, messianic Jews and every other outsider as Jewish and try with my life to protect them.

Honestly though, using the views of Nazi's to make your point may be a little off.

 

[Denny Crane]

I'm sure they would. And if something like that came about I would consider all gays, blacks, messianic Jews and every other outsider as Jewish and try with my life to protect them.

Honestly though, using the views of Nazi's to make your point may be a little off.

The Nazis saw things through an ETHNIC lens, no?

 

[magnifier661]

you being stuck on a bullshit premise doesn't affect reality.

Being an atheist requires faith. Simple as that. If there is no absolute, then it's a matter of what you believe without proof. If you call yourself an atheist, that that belief is without proof. Hence it is by faith.

 

[magnifier661]

Non sequitur.

Maybe the most orthodox jews would have the very same reaction to you being agnostic/atheist. You're a sinner/blasphemer in the same sense: you disobey the law (and 10 commandments).

I think you do have a flaw in your reasoning that mags stumbled onto. What I said isn't a flaw (born a jew, always a jew).

That's exactly what I'm talking about. If you can be an atheist Jew, then you can definitely be a Buddhist Jew, a catholic Jew, a Christian Jew, even a satanic Jew.

 

[Denny Crane]

That's exactly what I'm talking about. If you can be an atheist Jew, then you can definitely be a Buddhist Jew, a catholic Jew, a Christian Jew, even a satanic Jew.

You can. You can also be an african-american Jew, if you convert.

There is the religion element to it. It's an ethnoreligion.

 

[Denny Crane]

In fact:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Buddhist

Notable people:
Robert Downey Jr.
Allan Ginsberg
Goldie Hawn
Kate Hudson
Jeremy Piven
Steven Seagal.
Gary Shandling

 

[DaLincolnJones]

You can. You can also be an african-american Jew, if you convert.

There is the religion element to it. It's an ethnoreligion.

now that you bring it up, there is a tribe in africa that is jewish..or rather was..If I remember correctly,they have converted for the most part...but many still hold to the old ways in a religous stew..

 

[DaLincolnJones]

Denny

Denny

Denny

Bill Shatner is a jew..HAHAHHAAAHHAhhahhhahaaahahahaaaaaaa

 

[Further]

Being an atheist requires faith. Simple as that. If there is no absolute, then it's a matter of what you believe without proof. If you call yourself an atheist, that that belief is without proof. Hence it is by faith.

Honestly mags, we have been round and round. You have your view and refuse to listen on this topic. I'm out.

 

[Further]

That's exactly what I'm talking about. If you can be an atheist Jew, then you can definitely be a Buddhist Jew, a catholic Jew, a Christian Jew, even a satanic Jew.

Except you can't. At least how 99.5% of American Jews view it. It might not seem fair, but if you believe in Jesus, leave your Jew card at the door.

 

[magnifier661]

Honestly mags, we have been round and round. You have your view and refuse to listen on this topic. I'm out.

It's common sense bro. Don't get all pissy. You say my rationale is all bullshit and I 100% disagree with you. Only reason you can't see the forest through the trees is because it goes against everything you believe in.

That's not my problem

 

[Denny Crane]

Where do you come up with this 99.5% figure?

 

[Further]

In fact:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Buddhist

Notable people:
Robert Downey Jr.
Allan Ginsberg
Goldie Hawn
Kate Hudson
Jeremy Piven
Steven Seagal.
Gary Shandling

I mentioned earlier in this thread that there is a pretty decent sized JuBu (derogatory term, but I don't know why) population. They are mostly considered just wacky Jews. The combination as it has been explained to me is a way to merge a bottom up religion with a top down religion and find balance. I don't believe Jesus comes into play.

 

[ABM]

Except you can't. At least how 99.5% of American Jews view it. It might not seem fair, but if you believe in Jesus, leave your Jew card at the door.

You're saying you can't be a (born) Jew and believe in Jesus?? Sorry, that's just preposterous.