Real issue I'm dealing with - atheism vs judaism

[magnifier661]

Except you can't. At least how 99.5% of American Jews view it. It might not seem fair, but if you believe in Jesus, leave your Jew card at the door.

Well it's wrong if anyone believes that being a Jew is the same as one being black. Complete contradiction. Are their black Christians? Are there Arab Christians? Are there white Christians?

I rest my case

 

[Further]

Where do you come up with this 99.5% figure?

Just made it up. I should have said every Jew I have ever talked to regarding this subject, which is probably around 20.

 

[magnifier661]

I mentioned earlier in this thread that there is a pretty decent sized JuBu (derogatory term, but I don't know why) population. They are mostly considered just wacky Jews. The combination as it has been explained to me is a way to merge a bottom up religion with a top down religion and find balance. I don't believe Jesus comes into play.

Ah but you made a claim that you can't be a Jew if you worship false idols?

 

[Denny Crane]

I mentioned earlier in this thread that there is a pretty decent sized JuBu (derogatory term, but I don't know why) population. They are mostly considered just wacky Jews. The combination as it has been explained to me is a way to merge a bottom up religion with a top down religion and find balance. I don't believe Jesus comes into play.

What does Jesus have to do with anything? There's IDOL WORSHIP going on here. Blasphemy!

In fact, Moses came down from the mountain with the ten commandments carved in stone. He found the Jews had lost their faith and had created idols and began worshiping those. They didn't stop being Jews, though.

 

[Further]

It's common sense bro. Don't get all pissy. You say my rationale is all bullshit and I 100% disagree with you. Only reason you can't see the forest through the trees is because it goes against everything you believe in.

That's not my problem

Im not getting pissy, I'll debate the other stuff, but I'm just done arguing something that has been flushed out every which way but loose.

 

[magnifier661]

Just made it up. I should have said every Jew I have ever talked to regarding this subject, which is probably around 20.

There are billions of you guys

 

[Denny Crane]

Just made it up. I should have said every Jew I have ever talked to regarding this subject, which is probably around 20.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time like Mags is.

 

[Further]

You're saying you can't be a (born) Jew and believe in Jesus?? Sorry, that's just preposterous.

You most certainly can be born Jew and believe in Jesus. I'm saying that once you believe in Jesus you are no longer considered a Jew.

 

[magnifier661]

Im not getting pissy, I'll debate the other stuff, but I'm just done arguing something that has been flushed out every which way but loose.

It hasn't though. You try and refute atheism is faith: but not believing in God in the atheistic perspective, would require proof that God doesn't exist in order for it to be not a faith.

 

[ABM]

You most certainly can be born Jew and believe in Jesus. I'm saying that once you believe in Jesus you are no longer considered a Jew.

By whom???

 

[Further]

Well it's wrong if anyone believes that being a Jew is the same as one being black. Complete contradiction. Are their black Christians? Are there Arab Christians? Are there white Christians?

I rest my case

That was Denny who brought up the Black thing. There are some parallels, but it's not a exact match because being called a Jew is much more complicated. First, who is calling you a Jew? I am stating everything from the point of view of the Average American Jew. Second, you have the ethnic issue. Thirdly you have the heritage issue. Fourthly you have the religious issue. They all play a slice of the role and there is not a formula you can look it up on. Different questions, attitudes, and perspectives will call into play different definitions.

 

[magnifier661]

I'm not trying to give you a hard time like Mags is.

I know it seems like I'm giving him a hard time. I just want to call it the way I see it.

 

[Further]

Ah but you made a claim that you can't be a Jew if you worship false idols?

But not Jesus.

 

[Denny Crane]

I know it seems like I'm giving him a hard time. I just want to call it the way I see it.

Your version of reality is waaaaaaaayyyyyyy out there.

 

[magnifier661]

That was Denny who brought up the Black thing. There are some parallels, but it's not a exact match because being called a Jew is much more complicated. First, who is calling you a Jew? I am stating everything from the point of view of the Average American Jew. Second, you have the ethnic issue. Thirdly you have the heritage issue. Fourthly you have the religious issue. They all play a slice of the role and there is not a formula you can look it up on. Different questions, attitudes, and perspectives will call into play different definitions.

But this concept you are explaining only proves that atheism and Judaism is not compatible.

 

[magnifier661]

Your version of reality is waaaaaaaayyyyyyy out there.

Not in this case

 

[Further]

What does Jesus have to do with anything? There's IDOL WORSHIP going on here. Blasphemy!

In fact, Moses came down from the mountain with the ten commandments carved in stone. He found the Jews had lost their faith and had created idols and began worshiping those. They didn't stop being Jews, though.

My guess is this is an area where I, the average Jew, and the orthadox Jew all have different takes. I really don't know how or why, but most accept JuBu's. It doesn't make much sense.

 

[Denny Crane]

http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm

A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism.

It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do.

 

[magnifier661]

But not Jesus.

Okay so red is green according to you? An idol is still an idol. So fucking what if it's Jesus or Buddha?

Let's go even deeper. What about Mohammad?

 

[ABM]

But not Jesus.

Jesus has been a lighting rod ever since the 1st Century. Shows just how powerful His name is!

Jesus is the ultimate piece to the eternal puzzle.

 

[Further]

By whom???

By the average American Jew. Obviously other Messianic Jews will consider you a Jew, many Christians will consider you a Jew, but I don't believe almost any more traditional or American Jew would. I could be wrong, but I really don't think so.

 

[magnifier661]

http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm

A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism.

It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do.

And this is the concept that I think a Jew should tell their child. Your faith has nothing to do with your ethnicity. If you are a Jew because your mother was Jew and you decided to worship satan; you are still a Jew.

 

[ABM]

By the average American Jew. Obviously other Messianic Jews will consider you a Jew, many Christians will consider you a Jew, but I don't believe almost any more traditional or American Jew would. I could be wrong, but I really don't think so.

Certainly doesn't mean that's conclusive, though. jus sayin

 

[Denny Crane]

And this is the concept that I think a Jew should tell their child. Your faith has nothing to do with your ethnicity. If you are a Jew because your mother was Jew and you decided to worship satan; you are still a Jew.

You are missing a HUGE chunk of what being Jewish is.

You have two Jewish people here who've told you they practice some of the rituals, regardless of being agnostic.

 

[Further]

Okay so red is green according to you? An idol is still an idol. So fucking what if it's Jesus or Buddha?

Let's go even deeper. What about Mohammad?

No, I would say not Mohammad either.

It's an odd one, I don't know much about Buddhism, I know there is a Buddha so that would seem a false idol, but I'm telling you from personal experience in a synagogue, I have heard Jewish Buddhists referred in more of a wacky cousin type of a way than someone who is not related.

 

[magnifier661]

You are missing a HUGE chunk of what being Jewish is.

You have two Jewish people here who've told you they practice some of the rituals, regardless of being agnostic.

If being a Jew is like you say "ethnicity" then I 100% agree with you. There can be such thing as an agnostic or atheist Jew.

 

[magnifier661]

No, I would say not Mohammad either.

It's an odd one, I don't know much about Buddhism, I know there is a Buddha so that would seem a false idol, but I'm telling you from personal experience in a synagogue, I have heard Jewish Buddhists referred in more of a wacky cousin type of a way than someone who is not related.

But that is a double standard. Do you think it's okay to base a philosophy on a double standard like that?

 

[Further]

Certainly doesn't mean that's conclusive, though. jus sayin

Absolutely not conclusive. I'm just telling you what I believe most Jews would say. A rabbi might say something different as what they say would most certainly be based on Jewish Law, but when talking to me, or most Jews, we are basing it a lot on gut feeling, on culture, on how our family acts and so forth. The average Jew is not studying this question and looking for a definitive answer.

 

[Further]

I've tried to be as open and honest in all my answers. I have to take off from work now, I'll check in later.

 

[crandc]

I share GOD's frustration, saying the same thing over and over. The problem is that Christians think everyone is just like them. We sometimes hear the term "Judeo-Christian". There is no such thing as "Judeo-Christian", it's really just Christianity in evangelical dress. The two are very different. Christianity is based on acceptance of Christ as savior and son of God. If a person does not believe that Jesus is savior and son of God he/she is not a Christian, so it's impossible to be a Chrisitian atheist. I know some atheists who gift in December because it's family tradition but they clearly call themselves atheists, not Christians or Christian atheists or secular Christians. Similarly, Islam is based on submission to the will of Allah; the word Islam means "submission". So if a person does not accept Allah and Muhammed as his prophet, he/she is not a Muslim; it's impossible to be a Muslim atheist. Since Judaism is a culture and heritage as well as religion it is indeed possible to be a Jewish atheist (sometimes called secular Jew). It is not possible to be a Jewish Christian. So called Messianic Jews are actually for the most part Christian by birth who adopt some trappings of Judaism. They are no more Jews than I would be Christian if I put up a tree in December (I don't). Jews who convert are no longer Jews. It's not just American Jews; worldwide, the secular Jew is viewed by other Jews as a non observant Jew and the convert as no longer Jewish. There is also history to consider; in times past a Jew who converted was required to abandon his/her family, move from the Jewish community, which was segregated in its own neighborhood (ghetto) and renounce all practices of Judaism. Small wonder that person could not be considered a Jew.

Maybe some like magnifier just can't accept it. But can you accept that GOD and I have lived our whole lives in this culture/tradition and do know what we are talking about, even if it seems weird to you?

Atheism required no faith. Faith is accepting things for which there is no evidence. Atheism is not accepting anything for which there is no evidence. The opposite of faith.