OT Rockets in free fall, to Acquire Ty Lawson

Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Unless you are distributed, everyone would rather win than lose.what i am saying, which we all know youll disagree with with is this. Minnesota landed Towns in the draft and are on their way. That to me is productive. We made it to the playoffs and lost 4/5ths of our starting lineup. Who had the more productive year in their quest to win a title? I say Minnesota.
I get what you're saying. In a way, it's better to be contending or really bad, not mediocre. (no offense) But, there are no guarantees. You could go the Minnesota way thinking you're on the way up and injuries kill you, or a guy turns out to be a douchebag, etc. Twice, in the last 10 years the Blazers were called 'contenders' and we know what happened with Roy/Oden. Then, the Wes thing and the ensuing avalanche of misfortune.
No MM, you never know, so I think you go hard all the time with a winning culture and play to win.
 
Last edited:
Unless you are distributed, everyone would rather win than lose.what i am saying, which we all know youll disagree with with is this. Minnesota landed Towns in the draft and are on their way. That to me is productive. We made it to the playoffs and lost 4/5ths of our starting lineup. Who had the more productive year in their quest to win a title? I say Minnesota.

So, now MIN is the model of success? That's a pretty low bar. Towns is the 10th lottery pick MIN has had since the last time they made the playoffs. So is Towns the lottery pick that finally propels MIN to the promised land? I'll believe i when I see it. They have to make the playoffs first. Something they haven't done since 2003-04. In that 11-year span, they haven't had a single winning season, and have won 17, or fewer games 3 times. That's a LOT of losing to endure in the hope that this year's lottery pick will be the one that FINALLY helps them make the playoffs. No thanks. If winning 50+ games is considered stuck in mediocrity, I'll take that over being stuck losing 60+ games hoping that you'll finally get lucky in this years' lottery.

BNM
 
I guess some people think this is a realistic possibility - I'm not one of those people.

And that's fine--you're entitled to your pessimism. I was specifically addressing this statement of yours:
Most people arguing for the lottery are saying they'd rather see this team win 25 and at least have a chance at some help (maybe god forbid even a blue-chipper) vs. 43 wins, an 8th seed and losing the pick.

It's one thing to say that you simply don't believe this team is capable of winning 40+ (due to youth, talent, coaching, what-have-you). It's another thing entirely to say that you'd prefer that they lose. If this team were already at its peak, I'd understand that. But with a team of youngsters, winning is absolutely preferable.
 
I think so too. I never understand why these go towards tanking. I guess the best way my 1/2 brain can explain it is this. Houston s goal is to win a title. Our goal is to acquire assets. If they dont win and in turn we acquire a good asset, we were more productive this year
 
And that's fine--you're entitled to your pessimism. I was specifically addressing this statement of yours:


It's one thing to say that you simply don't believe this team is capable of winning 40+ (due to youth, talent, coaching, what-have-you). It's another thing entirely to say that you'd prefer that they lose. If this team were already at its peak, I'd understand that. But with a team of youngsters, winning is absolutely preferable.
I'm going to try and be as explicit as I can here. FOR THIS YEAR, given the situation with with our pick and the likelihood that we're probably going to be in the lottery anyway, I'd rather see this team lose big and improve their draft position over scrapping out 38 wins and the 9th seed.
 
And that's fine--you're entitled to your pessimism. I was specifically addressing this statement of yours:


It's one thing to say that you simply don't believe this team is capable of winning 40+ (due to youth, talent, coaching, what-have-you). It's another thing entirely to say that you'd prefer that they lose. If this team were already at its peak, I'd understand that. But with a team of youngsters, winning is absolutely preferable.

I would prefer they win every game. Id also prefer they win 25 instead of 26
 
I think so too. I never understand why these go towards tanking. I guess the best way my 1/2 brain can explain it is this. Houston s goal is to win a title. Our goal is to acquire assets. If they dont win and in turn we acquire a good asset, we were more productive this year

Perhaps we don't all believe that the goal this year is to acquire assets. In my mind, our goal this year is to maximize asset value. 10 young players playing well is more valuable than 3 that are decent and 7 that suck, plus a top-5 pick.
 
It is absolutely true that the draft does not guarantee success.

I would still prefer the #1 pick to the #10 pick, or the #10 pick to none at all. I'm just too much of a flinty pragmatist to turn down any tool that might make us better. :dunno:
 
I'm going to try and be as explicit as I can here. FOR THIS YEAR, given the situation with with our pick and the likelihood that we're probably going to be in the lottery anyway, I'd rather see this team lose big and improve their draft position over scrapping out 38 wins and the 9th seed.

And that's because you've already decided that the players on this team are short on talent, so "scrapping out" wins would be the only way they could win 38. I however, have a higher opinion of the potential on this team, and believe they are capable of winning 38 without necessarily playing above their heads, thereby leaving room for further growth, as well as potentially even being an attractive destination for another free agent or two next summer. Hence the basis of my opinion that THIS YEAR, notwithstanding the situation with our pick, I'd rather see this team win 38 with room to grow than see them suck terribly, win 25 and get a top-5 pick.
 
Perhaps we don't all believe that the goal this year is to acquire assets. In my mind, our goal this year is to maximize asset value. 10 young players playing well is more valuable than 3 that are decent and 7 that suck, plus a top-5 pick.

Our GM does. Or at least said he does at his presser
 
So, now MIN is the model of success? That's a pretty low bar. Towns is the 10th lottery pick MIN has had since the last time they made the playoffs. So is Towns the lottery pick that finally propels MIN to the promised land? I'll believe i when I see it. They have to make the playoffs first. Something they haven't done since 2003-04. In that 11-year span, they haven't had a single winning season, and have won 17, or fewer games 3 times. That's a LOT of losing to endure in the hope that this year's lottery pick will be the one that FINALLY helps them make the playoffs. No thanks. If winning 50+ games is considered stuck in mediocrity, I'll take that over being stuck losing 60+ games hoping that you'll finally get lucky in this years' lottery.

BNM

You certainly like to insert words in peoples mouths.
 
I guess some people think this is a realistic possibility - I'm not one of those people.
That's fine if you don't believe it, but wouldn't you be happy if they accomplished that with this group of guys? Would you consider that more successful than being one of the worst teams in the league?
 
So, now MIN is the model of success? That's a pretty low bar. Towns is the 10th lottery pick MIN has had since the last time they made the playoffs. So is Towns the lottery pick that finally propels MIN to the promised land? I'll believe i when I see it. They have to make the playoffs first. Something they haven't done since 2003-04. In that 11-year span, they haven't had a single winning season, and have won 17, or fewer games 3 times. That's a LOT of losing to endure in the hope that this year's lottery pick will be the one that FINALLY helps them make the playoffs. No thanks. If winning 50+ games is considered stuck in mediocrity, I'll take that over being stuck losing 60+ games hoping that you'll finally get lucky in this years' lottery.

BNM
You are on the top of your game today. Just wanted to tell you that instead of just seeing me like all your posts.
 
That's fine if you don't believe it, but wouldn't you be happy if they accomplished that with this group of guys? Would you consider that more successful than being one of the worst teams in the league?
I think it takes having All-NBA talent on your roster to win a title, I don't see enough guys on this team with that kind of potential (if I squint hard enough, maybe Vonleh could get close one day . . . maybe). I think for this team to get back to a point where it serisouly competes for a title it's going to need a couple of more trips to the slot machine and hope that they get lucky, because there's no messiah to be had in free agency, and teams rarely trade All-NBA caliber players unless they get caught snorting blow off a hooker's ass, or molest children, and I don't want a guy like that on my team.
 
I think it takes having All-NBA talent on your roster to win a title, I don't see enough guys on this team with that kind of potential (if I squint hard enough, maybe Vonleh could get close one day . . . maybe). I think for this team to get back to a point where it serisouly competes for a title it's going to need a couple of more trips to the slot machine and hope that they get lucky, because there's no messiah to be had in free agency, and teams rarely trade All-NBA caliber players unless they get caught snorting blow off a hooker's ass, or molest children, and I don't want a guy like that on my team.

I think this is where the disconnect comes from. What some belive, others dont. Whetger that be a players potential, or whatnot. At the end of the day though, people like boob and myself would embrace when we win the title because its what we both want
 
I can handle sucking for one year. (25 wins or less) But the thought of sucking for two straight years would be too much to handle. And that's really what it would take if we went that "unintentional" tank route.

My guess is most of us feel the same, including PA. Having a bunch of young players playing their asses off and getting better (win or lose) is tolerable for a short term if the youngsters are competitive. The one thing we have going is if we are competitive and the games are close.......we do have a closer that can win some of those tight ones. Similar to BRoy's rookie year.

Ideally we can get an exciting player in the draft next summer, a starter in either free agency or a consolidation trade, and improvement from some of our young guns. A one year rebuild before we are back in the playoffs.

Looking at how strong the west is this year, I think we would have struggled to make the playoffs if we would have kept everyone. (7th or 8th seed?)

Again...I can handle it for one year. Not sure how I will handle some of the posters in this forum, but I guess that's why they created "ignore".
 
You certainly like to insert words in peoples mouths.

Please show me where I put words in your mouth. My entire post was a series of questions, facts and personal opinions spoken in the first person.

You said:

"Minnesota landed Towns in the draft and are on their way. That to me is productive. Who had the more productive year in their quest to win a title? I say Minnesota."

What proof do you have that MIN is "on their way"? Towns hasn't played a minute of NBA ball and already you think he's leading them to a title, or at least close to one? (notice, those are both questions, not putting words in your mouth, asking you to clarify your position or add something to support that opinion). To me (and this is my opinion, not putting words in your mouth), Towns upside is a poor man's DeMarcus Cousins. And how many titles has Cousins won in SAC? You may disagree, but in my opinion Towns is not the missing piece that will turn a 16-win team into a title contender.

Additionally, I think Noah Vonleh has every bit as much potential to be a top tier big man in the NBA as Towns. Did we get Vonleh by sucking and dipping into the lottery? No, we got him because Charlotte sucked and was stupid. Same with Lillard, the cornerstone of our franchise. We didn't get Lillard because we sucked, we got him because NJN sucked (and were stupid). Heck if you go back several years and look at the best players we've had on our team (Sheed, Roy, Aldridge, Lillard), we did not get them because we sucked, we got them because someone else sucked (or in Aldridge case, sucked more) and was stupid.

There are ways to get lottery talent without sucking. I know you don't think we'll ever attract a top tier free agent (not putting words in your mouth, you've said this many times), but we can get lottery level talent through trades, which is usually how we do it. Olshey has been accumulating assets, some of them lottery level prospects, this off season even though we didn't have a lottery pick. We still have a ton of cap space. With some teams facing luxury tax penalties, or just looking to shed salary at the trade deadline, we have the potential to get back additional future assets by absorbing someone else's bad contract(s). We may also be able to ship out guys like Kaman or Henderson to a contending team that suffers an injury or just wants to bolster their bench for the post season. My point is, you don't have to suck to acquire future assets. You can leverage your current assets in exchange for future assets (like Gerald Wallace for the pick that turned into Damian Lillard, or Nic Batum for Noah Vonleh, Sebastian Telfair and Theo Ratliff for the pick that allowed us to get Brandon Roy, etc.), I'd rather be smart than suck (again personal opinion).

BNM
 
Additionally, I think Noah Vonleh has every bit as much potential to be a top tier big man in the NBA as Towns. Did we get Vonleh by sucking and dipping into the lottery? No, we got him because Charlotte sucked and was stupid. Same with Lillard, the cornerstone of our franchise. We didn't get Lillard because we sucked, we got him because NJN sucked (and were stupid). Heck if you go back several years and look at the best players we've had on our team (Sheed, Roy, Aldridge, Lillard), we did not get them because we sucked, we got them because someone else sucked (or in Aldridge case, sucked more) and was stupid.

This is a great paragraph.
 
What proof do you have for Vonleh. Listen, you like to argue, mostly with me. Im over that. Have your opinion and ill have mine.
 
And so did Towns.

Who I compared him to. The difference is we din't have to endure 11 straight losing seasons and sink to 16 wins to get Vonleh. We got him after making the playoffs two straight years and winning 51 games. Thus my point, you don't have to suck to acquire lottery level talent.

BNM
 
Who I compared him to. The difference is we din't have to endure 11 straight losing seasons and sink to 16 wins to get Vonleh. We got him after making the playoffs two straight years and winning 51 games. Thus my point, you don't have to suck to acquire lottery level talent.

BNM

Ive never disagreed with that.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top