Science and Religion questions (2 Viewers)

[magnifier661]

according to inflationary theory, which hasn't been completely confirmed yet.

Of course it hasn't because we haven't observed anything traveling faster than the speed of light.

the age of the universe is calculated based on the ratio of expansion rate vs. distance for many other galaxies, not distance to a furthest object.

Expansion rate that's faster than the speed if light? That's the debate.

currently unknown

Yep

we know we CAN'T see the farthest regions.

So for all we know; the universe is much larger than we are advertising?

 

[Denny Crane]

That was really interesting! Thanks for the link!

This is something that confuses me though. As he used the balloon, wouldn't the center of that balloon be the center? I mean as you insert air (hypothetical created space), the expanding point is the same?

The rubber that makes up the balloon is the visualization of space/time. Not the shape.

That's why he also showed the sidewalk visualization.

The thing is, he has all his things standing still. People standing on the sidewalk or painted on the balloon. For real, the things were moving in space/time as well. That's how you get things that appear to move faster than the speed of light. Speed of light + expansion gets you a distance greater than the speed of light alone would.

 

[magnifier661]

you're drastically underestimating the scope of the evidence and the precision of scientific knowledge about this subject.

There is no question in my mind that the Big Bang occurred. How and why are far from being precise

 

[magnifier661]

The rubber that makes up the balloon is the visualization of space/time. Not the shape.

That's why he also showed the sidewalk visualization.

The thing is, he has all his things standing still. People standing on the sidewalk or painted on the balloon. For real, the things were moving in space/time as well. That's how you get things that appear to move faster than the speed of light. Speed of light + expansion gets you a distance greater than the speed of light alone would.

That was a great explanation! I got a better understanding of it now. Their was two types of momentum (expansion of space and the speed of light for physical objects)?

So basically the probability of getting to galaxy z; could be as simple as finding ways to channel into the river of space?

 

[TripTango]

There is no question in my mind that the Big Bang occurred. How and why are far from being precise

Then we are entirely in agreement. Case closed!

 

[crowTrobot]

Question; in a few minutes; maybe a couple hours; the natural law of physics did not apply; what could manifest?

I live by a seacliff (Cascade Head, which is an ancient volcanic island) which has 14+ exposed alternating layers of fine sedimentary deposits and basalt lava flows in increasing states of oxidation as you descend.

there is no objective way to look at this and not conclude it must have taken a very long time to form (much, much longer than 6000 years). trying to explain this as something that might have formed quickly when god suspended the laws of physics is silly. you might as well go ahead and say god intentionally created the earth to deceive us into concluding it is unquestionably old. god is quite the prankster.

 

[TripTango]

So basically the probability of getting to galaxy z; could be as simple as finding ways to channel into the river of space?

No no -- it's as simple as bending spacetime such that point A becomes right next to point B. A "wrinkle in time", if you will.

 

[Denny Crane]

No no -- it's as simple as bending spacetime such that point A becomes right next to point B. A "wrinkle in time", if you will.

Imagine the havoc caused to everything if you bent space like that.

 

[TripTango]

I live by a seacliff (Cascade Head, which is an ancient volcanic island) which has 14+ exposed alternating layers of fine sedimentary deposits and basalt lava flows in increasing states of oxidation as you descend.

I love Cascade Head. I've never had a less than awesome time on those trails.

 

[Denny Crane]

No no -- it's as simple as bending spacetime such that point A becomes right next to point B. A "wrinkle in time", if you will.

Also, are those God's hands?

 

[TripTango]

Imagine the havoc caused to everything if you bent space like that.

Hey, if you want an omelet (teleportation), you've got to break a few eggs (reality).

 

[TripTango]

Also, are those God's hands?

That's actually a photo of my hands. I'm very pale.

 

[magnifier661]

Then we are entirely in agreement. Case closed!

Nice! See we accomplished something today.

 

[crowTrobot]

Expansion rate that's faster than the speed if light? That's the debate.

my understanding is inflationary theory as it is currently formulated wouldn't change how the age of the universe is calculated, since we are measuring based on what happened after inflation.

So for all we know; the universe is much larger than we are advertising?

who's we?

if inflation is true (our big bang) universe may be many orders of magnitude larger than we can see. many astrophysicists think that is likely to be the case.

 

[magnifier661]

I live by a seacliff (Cascade Head, which is an ancient volcanic island) which has 14+ exposed alternating layers of fine sedimentary deposits and basalt lava flows in increasing states of oxidation as you descend.

there is no objective way to look at this and not conclude it must have taken a very long time to form (much, much longer than 6000 years). trying to explain this as something that might have formed quickly when god suspended the laws of physics is silly. you might as well go ahead and say god intentionally created the earth to deceive us into concluding it is unquestionably old. god is quite the prankster.

Actually no. What if the earth had high levels of oxygen to oxidize that mass? Think of it like injecting high levels of oxygen to a molten mass of iron. You know when we make steel? It has been observed that one could speed up processes just by increasing levels of temp, oxygen or hydrogen.

We do this everyday.

 

[Denny Crane]

I find it remarkable that a lot of the technology in the original star trek tv show is becoming real science.

The bending of space as you showed it would destroy a lot of things - stars, planets, etc., that got crunched by the bend. But if you bent a mile of empty space at a time and moved like the ant in your picture, you'd have warp drive.

It would require something like the matter/anti-matter engines they had on the ship, too. The amount of power required to bend space must be ridiculous.

I always thought the transporter technology was stupid. Why not just bend space like in your picture and take one step to get to your destination? The process of scanning, remembering a huge amount of data about how matter and energy are put together to make a human, then faxing that information to the target where it's reassembled makes no sense. Now it makes more sense with the discovery of quantum entanglement. That also would give us sub-space communications. The thing is, though, quantum entanglement and disassembly/reassembly should allow you to beam anything across any distance, no?

 

[Denny Crane]

my understanding is inflationary theory as it is currently formulated wouldn't change how the age of the universe is calculated, since we are measuring based on what happened after inflation.



who's we?

if inflation is true (our big bang) universe may be many orders of magnitude larger than we can see. many astrophysicists think that is likely to be the case.

How can you see beyond 13.7 billion light years? It's an impossibility, since light didn't originate any earlier than the universe. Yet the universe is certainly larger than 13.7B light years.

What's over the horizon?

 

[magnifier661]

my understanding is inflationary theory as it is currently formulated wouldn't change how the age of the universe is calculated, since we are measuring based on what happened after inflation.

But how can we be accurate then? What if for a split second the entire universe went to the space we see happened 10,000 years ago? What I mean is if the expansion already finished; then it's light was already where we are right now; we may have seen stars from 10,000 years ago and the continuous stream followed as the earth expanded.

if inflation is true (our big bang) universe may be many orders of magnitude larger than we can see. many astrophysicists think that is likely to be the case.

I agree

 

[crowTrobot]

Actually no. What if the earth had high levels of oxygen to oxidize that mass? Think of it like injecting high levels of oxygen to a molten mass of iron. You know when we make steel? It has been observed that one could speed up processes just by increasing levels of temp, oxygen or hydrogen.

We do this everyday.

William of Ockham would like a word with you.

 

[TripTango]

I find it remarkable that a lot of the technology in the original star trek tv show is becoming real science.

The bending of space as you showed it would destroy a lot of things - stars, planets, etc., that got crunched by the bend. But if you bent a mile of empty space at a time and moved like the ant in your picture, you'd have warp drive.

It would require something like the matter/anti-matter engines they had on the ship, too. The amount of power required to bend space must be ridiculous.

I always thought the transporter technology was stupid. Why not just bend space like in your picture and take one step to get to your destination? The process of scanning, remembering a huge amount of data about how matter and energy are put together to make a human, then faxing that information to the target where it's reassembled makes no sense. Now it makes more sense with the discovery of quantum entanglement. That also would give us sub-space communications. The thing is, though, quantum entanglement and disassembly/reassembly should allow you to beam anything across any distance, no?

The graphic I posted is actually from the 60's sci-fi book "A Wrinkle in Time", by Madeleine L'Engle. Characters in the book travel exactly as you describe, though the details of the method are left vague... (Dilithium crystals may have been involved.)

 

[magnifier661]

William of Ockham would like a word with you.

What happens to lava when it hits the ocean?

 

[Denny Crane]

What happens to lava when it hits the ocean?

Ockham's Razor (SIC), of course.

 

[crowTrobot]

But how can we be accurate then? What if for a split second the entire universe went to the space we see happened 10,000 years ago? What I mean is if the expansion already finished; then it's light was already where we are right now; we may have seen stars from 10,000 years ago and the continuous stream followed as the earth expanded.

inflation (if true) occurred before the formation of galaxies. the light we see from galaxies can only have left them post-inflation.

 

[TripTango]

Ockham's Razor (SIC), of course.

Well played, Crane.

 

[magnifier661]

inflation (if true) occurred before the formation of galaxies. the light we see from galaxies can only have left them post-inflation.

True they only formed from the cooling off. But the black hole theory could bend time and distance just as trip tango mentioned.

 

[magnifier661]

Ockham's Razor (SIC), of course.

Lol!

 

[TripTango]

True they only formed from the cooling off. But the black hole theory could bend time and distance just as trip tango mentioned.

"Just as trip tango mentioned"? Stop trolling!

 

[TripTango]

Mags is like the MacGuyver of science fiction ideas. He can cobble together a Grand Theory of Everything from just a periodic table, an episode of Doctor Who, and some duct tape.

 

[magnifier661]

http://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-powered-the-big-bang/

You should read this!

One problem that arose from the original COBE results, and that persists with the higher-resolution WMAP data, was that the Universe was too homogeneous. How could pieces of the Universe that had never been in contact with each other have come to equilibrium at the very same temperature? This and other cosmological problems could be solved, however, if there had been a very short period immediately after the Big Bang where the Universe experienced an incredible burst of expansion called "inflation." For this inflation to have taken place, the Universe at the time of the Big Bang must have been filled with an unstable form of energy whose nature is not yet known. Whatever its nature, the inflationary model predicts that this primordial energy would have been unevenly distributed in space due to a kind of quantum noise that arose when the Universe was extremely small. This pattern would have been transferred to the matter of the Universe and would show up in the photons that began streaming away freely at the moment of recombination. As a result, we would expect to see, and do see, this kind of pattern in the COBE and WMAP pictures of the Universe.

 

[magnifier661]

"Just as trip tango mentioned"? Stop trolling!

Oh come on trip! Be a good sport!