Science and Religion questions (2 Viewers)

[oldguy]

The vasectomy is a joke, guys. Come on.

Although, if it turns out that you are allergic to the suture material, and your family jewels swell up to the size of kiwis for about a week, you may wish you prayed to God before you went in. (I've got first hand experience with that. Great fun....sitting around with ice packs on your, er, lap.)

I ask because I've known more than one non-believer, for each of the situations I listed, that prayed when they were faced with those circumstances. Many of those that prayed were people that had spent time telling me why I was foolish for believing. I've had hospital chaplains tell me that they see lots of people come around to Christianity when they are faced with end of life decisions for themselves or others. (For some reason, the I ones I talked to don't seem to want to talk about an estimated percentage of non-believers convert.)

Julius, I think if one is Christian, you believe there is good and evil. One is represented by God, the other by Satan. I don't believe God would be the one sending ICBM's.

Go Blazers

 

[julius]

The vasectomy is a joke, guys. Come on.

Although, if it turns out that you are allergic to the suture material, and your family jewels swell up to the size of kiwis for about a week, you may wish you prayed to God before you went in. (I've got first hand experience with that. Great fun....sitting around with ice packs on your, er, lap.)

Not sure how praying would've changed your allergic reaction.

I ask because I've known more than one non-believer, for each of the situations I listed, that prayed when they were faced with those circumstances. Many of those that prayed were people that had spent time telling me why I was foolish for believing. I've had hospital chaplains tell me that they see lots of people come around to Christianity when they are faced with end of life decisions for themselves or others. (For some reason, the I ones I talked to don't seem to want to talk about an estimated percentage of non-believers convert.)

Julius, I think if one is Christian, you believe there is good and evil. One is represented by God, the other by Satan. I don't believe God would be the one sending ICBM's.

Go Blazers

but he's supposed to be all powerful and can change things. I think that things happen because people are wired wrong or trained wrong (in the sense of abused children tend to abuse others, etc...a trained character trait).

Like I said, my dad had cancer. His cancer didn't cause me to all the sudden find god or religion, and it didn't cause him to go to church more.

When his mom was dying, he didn't all the sudden go to the church in the hospital she was staying at. She was in her 80's, had survived breast cancer, a horrific car accident that should've killed her, and 3 other related cancers.

It was her time, and he had come to grips with it.

I thinking "finding" god in those circumstances is phony. Much like all the sudden becoming friends with someone who has a truck, because you need to borrow their truck. A relationship of convenience.

 

[crowTrobot]

The vasectomy is a joke, guys. Come on.

Although, if it turns out that you are allergic to the suture material, and your family jewels swell up to the size of kiwis for about a week, you may wish you prayed to God before you went in. (I've got first hand experience with that. Great fun....sitting around with ice packs on your, er, lap.)

I ask because I've known more than one non-believer, for each of the situations I listed, that prayed when they were faced with those circumstances. Many of those that prayed were people that had spent time telling me why I was foolish for believing. I've had hospital chaplains tell me that they see lots of people come around to Christianity when they are faced with end of life decisions for themselves or others. (For some reason, the I ones I talked to don't seem to want to talk about an estimated percentage of non-believers convert.)

not sure what that is supposed to prove. if anything it indicates tendency towards religious belief is based more on emotion than reason.

 

[magnifier661]

not sure what that is supposed to prove. if anything it indicates tendency towards religious belief is based more on emotion than reason.

Or that sausages are made from pig lips and other odd pig parts.

 

[oldguy]

Wasn't trying to prove anything. Just saying that telling believers that they are fools for most of one's life, then converting to Christianity when you need help making decisions where there is no answer, need help in a helpless situation, or at end of life, is hypocritical.

Go Blazers

 

[oldguy]

Why do you say this? On a micro level, there's definitely an evolutionary advantage to ensuring your offspring are properly cared for and can reach maturity so that they can reproduce. A strong sense of affection toward a mate/offspring increases the likelihood a dominant male may linger around to ensure that the offspring survives. If he just fucks all the bitches and splits, the caveman who hangs around may just decide to kill the babies that don't look like him. Male grizzly bears kill cubs on sight so they can get the female bear back in heat so they can be fucked by them.

On a macro level, a species that has a sense of "love" between members of its species may very well out-compete a species that doesn't. "If you watch and care for my kid and all the other kids in the tribe Old Woman, we'll go kill a bear and feed you some of it." The Old Woman may do a better job of caring for that young if she has strong affection.

Humans have a more sophisticated sense of "love" than other species, but that's probably because of our more developed brains. Evolution has selected for us to devote a lot of calories to a complex brain, and it lets us think about things in more sophisticated ways (including love) than a squirrel or dog can.

You don't need a god to explain love. It doesn't preclude there being a god, either.

I take your point Mook. I can see where it makes sense to see that the mate and babies are safe.

Why though, do we love others, such as our elderly friends and relatives? People that are no longer productive. I.e., not capable of taking care of the kids while you kill that bear. The sick, the handicapped, the decrepit.

They require resources that could be used to keep the mate and kids healthy. They require care that takes time from the kids. They require protection, which generates risk to the man.

 

[oldguy]

Drop some acid and you will see just how powerful your mind is

I've sure known my share of non-believers that prayed to God that they would come down from that LSD trip with their minds intact. (Usually during rush hour, when they knew they had a hours of being too high ahead of them.) Promising God they would never do XXXX again, if they could just come back sane.

I know a few that never did come back completely.

Go Blazers

 

[oldguy]

Would you give up on your belief in God if your pain came back tomorrow?

Why would I? God can grant miracles, and God can take them away.

Go Blazers

 

[magnifier661]

Why would I? God can grant miracles, and God can take them away.

Go Blazers

I don't agree with this. I don't believe God takes anything away from us; just like we would never lose salvation. They are gifts.

As for miracles through prayer.... I absolutely believe them. But try oraying for the Blazers to win a championship. That won't work. It's only when your request is warranted. If your heart and motives are in the right place.

 

[oldguy]

I don't agree with this. I don't believe God takes anything away from us; just like we would never lose salvation. They are gifts.

As for miracles through prayer.... I absolutely believe them. But try oraying for the Blazers to win a championship. That won't work. It's only when your request is warranted. If your heart and motives are in the right place.

So do you believe that, if God grants you a miracle, he wouldn't take it from you if you began worshiping the flying spaghetti monster, bowing down to Satan, using God's name in vain, screwing your buddy's wife, stealing and killing babies while hating your Mother and Father?

You don't believe that vengeance is His?

Go Blazers

 

[magnifier661]

So do you believe that, if God grants you a miracle, he wouldn't take it from you if you began worshiping the fly spaghetti monster, bowing down to Satan, using God's name in vain, screwing your buddy's wife, stealing and killing babies while hating your Mother and Father?

You don't believe that vengeance is His?

Go Blazers

I don't believe in vengeance anymore. If you are truly saved; there would be no reason to believe in a spaghetti monster. You have been fully redeemed.

If you believe in a omnipresent God; then when Christ died for "all sins" and knowing what you did from birth to death; when you become saved; he died for partial?

After Jesus; we don't have a vengeful God. We have a forgiving and caring God.

And let's look at sin for a moment. Did you know that the mortal sin is actually disobedience? In God's eyes; all sin is exactly the same. When you talk about fucking your best friend's wife; it's as bad in God's eyes as murdering a person. If you lie; is just as bad as rape.

 

[oldguy]

Would you think God took away his miracle if he cured you of cancer, then called you to his side the next day with a heart attack?

Go Blazers

 

[oldguy]

I don't believe in vengeance anymore. If you are truly saved; there would be no reason to believe in a spaghetti monster. You have been fully redeemed.

If you believe in a omnipresent God; then when Christ died for "all sins" and knowing what you did from birth to death; when you become saved; he died for partial?

After Jesus; we don't have a vengeful God. We have a forgiving and caring God.

So you believe that, once you are saved, you can break all of the commandments, worship Satan, never again ask for forgiveness and still be rewarded when you stand before Him?

Go Blazers

 

[magnifier661]

So you believe that, once you are saved, you can break all of the commandments, worship Satan, never again ask for forgiveness and still be rewarded when you stand before Him?

Go Blazers

Absolutely! All sin is forgiven. He throws them farthest east from west. That you receive the gift of God and eternal redemption.

Do you think if you lie tomorrow; you are forgiven and still saved?

And if you are truly saved; why would you worship satan? Maybe you weren't saved to begin with. Maybe you just believed only in your mind and not in your heart.

 

[magnifier661]

Do you understand the contradiction if it said "God so loved the world; that he gave his only son; that whosoever belief in him (and live by his commandments) shall not perish; but have eternal life.

All fall short of the glory of God. There is not a single person other than Jesus that lived on this earth as flesh; that hasn't and will keep on sinning.

The 10 commandments are hard enough not to break. There are thousands of commandments in the bible. We will never be able to live without sin.

And if you believe you can lose your salvation; they why the fuck God send his son? That's insane? There would be no reason for Jesus to go through all that torment so we still need works to get into heaven.

Think about that for a moment.

 

[magnifier661]

No wonder there is atheism! Why would anyone that doesn't believe in God; buy into a false system that is bound for failure. If an atheist is approached by a Christian and was taught this; I would say "fuck that" too.

No I believe in a forgiving God. Not the God that murdered hundreds of thousand because they didn't believe. I believe in forgiveness and redemption.

 

[oldguy]

Not sure how praying would've changed your allergic reaction.

I'm not sure either. Often the answer to one's prayers is no.

but he's supposed to be all powerful and can change things.

I believe that he can change the work of Satan. That doesn't mean that he will.

I think that things happen because people are wired wrong or trained wrong (in the sense of abused children tend to abuse others, etc...a trained character trait).

Like I said, my dad had cancer. His cancer didn't cause me to all the sudden find god or religion, and it didn't cause him to go to church more.

If he was Christian, he wouldn't feel the need to go to church any more, or any less, probably.

When his mom was dying, he didn't all the sudden go to the church in the hospital she was staying at. She was in her 80's, had survived breast cancer, a horrific car accident that should've killed her, and 3 other related cancers.

I didn't say anything about going to church. Did he pray for her passing to be peaceful?

It was her time, and he had come to grips with it.

Yes, many of us have had to 'come to grips with' the death of loved ones. One way to do that is through prayer. Certainly not the only way.

I thinking "finding" god in those circumstances is phony. Much like all the sudden becoming friends with someone who has a truck, because you need to borrow their truck. A relationship of convenience.

I find it annoying when atheists, who have spent their lives calling believers fools, find God in these kinds of situations. That's not to say that it doesn't happen every day. (I'm not saying that all atheists do that, or that the atheists here have done that.)

Go Blazers

 

[oldguy]

And if you are truly saved; why would you worship satan?

I didn't say that I would do anything. I asked if you believe God would still reward you if you renounced Him and worshiped Satan instead of Him AND never asked for His forgiveness? Why is not the point.

So, you think, once you are saved, you will go to heaven even if you go out and murder 50 people and never pray for forgiveness?

I believe that kind of thinking would cause people to laugh at Christianity more than anything I've said.

Go Blazers

 

[magnifier661]

I didn't say that I would do anything. I asked if you believe God would still reward you if you renounced Him and worshiped Satan instead of Him AND never asked for His forgiveness? Why is not the point.

So, you think, once you are saved, you will go to heaven even if you go out and murder 50 people and never pray for forgiveness?

I believe that kind of thinking would cause people to laugh at Christianity more than anything I've said.

Go Blazers

If they laugh then that's their problem. And yes, even if I killed 50 people; I would still go to heaven.

Do you believe the word of God is actually the word of God? It would be logical to read through all of Jesus's words when he said "all is forgiven". And since you believe God is omnipotent; then he would have already knew you were going to kill 50 people before you even knew you did.

When Christ was on the cross; he was consumed by "all sin"; so much that God couldn't even look at him. Not sin before salvation. All sin!

 

[oldguy]

Do you understand the contradiction if it said "God so loved the world; that he gave his only son; that whosoever belief in him (and live by his commandments) shall not perish; but have eternal life.

What I said was if you DIDN'T live by his commandments.

All fall short of the glory of God. There is not a single person other than Jesus that lived on this earth as flesh; that hasn't and will keep on sinning.

Never said I disagreed with this. But, there is sin, and there is worhiping Satan, breaking all commandments, and not asking forgiveness. You really believe that you would be rewarded for that?

The 10 commandments are hard enough not to break. There are thousands of commandments in the bible. We will never be able to live without sin.

Could you list the other 990? I must have missed the memo.

And if you believe you can lose your salvation; they why the fuck God send his son? That's insane? There would be no reason for Jesus to go through all that torment so we still need works to get into heaven.

We still need to have only one God. We can't worship Satan before him. I believe that you can receive forgiveness for sinning, but breaking commandments, worshiping Satan, and not asking forgiveness? You really think you would be rewarded for that because, at one time in your life, you were saved?

Think about that for a moment.

Right back atcha Bud.

Go Blazers

 

[julius]

So wait, you believe that if you killed 50 people, all sin is forgiven and you'd get to heaven anyways?

Whats the point of being religious/nice then?

 

[magnifier661]

What I said was if you DIDN'T live by his commandments.

I think that's were you and I are at a crossroads. I try and keep God's commandments because I love him; just as a son would want to keep his fathers laws because he loves him.

Never said I disagreed with this. But, there is sin, and there is worhiping Satan, breaking all commandments, and not asking forgiveness. You really believe that you would be rewarded for that?

Salvation isn't a reward. It's a gift. Until you see that; you won't understand what I believe in. I believe those rewards you refer to are the crowns you receive when in heaven.

Could you list the other 990? I must have missed the memo.

My mistake 613

http://www.therefinersfire.org/original_commandments.htm

We still need to have only one God. We can't worship Satan before him. I believe that you can receive forgiveness for sinning, but breaking commandments, worshiping Satan, and not asking forgiveness? You really think you would be rewarded for that because, at one time in your life, you were saved?

Addiction on anything is idolizing false idols. Just like us being fans with the Blazers.

 

[magnifier661]

So wait, you believe that if you killed 50 people, all sin is forgiven and you'd get to heaven anyways?

Whats the point of being religious/nice then?

I don't know how many times I've said this; but I will give you the benefit that you may not have read it.

"Salvation is a gift" not a "reward". This gift was because God loves us.

Because I love God for his ultimate sacrifice; I choose to try and keep his commandments.

I will fail to be without sin; but my heart is that I will try my best to keep them. That "heart" is the measure of faith; which God has already forgiven when I asked for salvation and have Jesus come into my life and wash my sins.

 

[crowTrobot]

"Salvation is a gift" not a "reward".

it's both

 

[oldguy]

Matthew 6:14-15
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

So you can kill 50 people and be forgiven and go to heaven. But, if you don't forgive the asshole that kills your daughter, then God doesn't forgive you and you go to hell?

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS.

Mark 11:25
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins. "

Again, I guess the point you make is that murder is a big nothing, but holding a grudge against someone puts you in hell?

I don't like to quote scripture, but damn. I respect your right to believe anything you want to....but you don't have to be so condescending about it.

Why do you think Catholics go to confession, if they will go to heaven after they murder people and worship Satan?

Go Blazers

 

[magnifier661]

it's both

Well okay; not just a reward.

 

[crowTrobot]

Wasn't trying to prove anything. Just saying that telling believers that they are fools for most of one's life, then converting to Christianity when you need help making decisions where there is no answer, need help in a helpless situation, or at end of life, is hypocritical.

insomuch as this actually happens and isn't just anecdotal, the convertee was likely more indifferent than really a rational non-believer. certainly this would be rare among people who are reasoned enough in their non-belief to bother debating theists on a forum.

 

[oldguy]

So, Mags, you believe if you are once forgiven, you are always forgiven, no matter how badly you live your life after that forgiveness.

Would you explain how Lucifer was, being already an angel (therefore previously given the gift), cast from heaven for eternity?

 

[oldguy]

insomuch as this actually happens and isn't just anecdotal, the convertee was likely more indifferent than really a rational non-believer. certainly this would be rare among people who are reasoned enough in their non-belief to bother debating theists on a forum.

Well, the ones I know of are anecdotal, for sure. Do you really think that it doesn't happen?

A non-believer finds out that he will die in hours, days or weeks. The chaplain is right there. Nobody will know if they convert, except the chaplain.

What's to loose, whether rational or indifferent? If they convert, and there is a God, they go to heaven. If they don't convert and there's a God, they go to hell. If they do convert and there is no God, what to they loose?

Go Blazers

 

[julius]

Mags, I respect the living without violating the 10 commandments thing, but I don't think thats necessarily a religious thing. It CAN be derived from a religious upbringing, but I've known people who aren't religious who aren't bad people. Me, my brother and his wife for example. None of us are religious, yet the lack of religious beliefs or upbringing hasn't exactly caused us to stray from the 10 commandments or some of the better morals in religious teachings.

Even if the reasons why we are "good moral people" wasn't due to being told an invisible dude up in the sky wants us to be. It was "treat others as you want to be treated" and "people make mistakes, including you. Don't forget that"