SF Solution: Trevor Ariza?

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Tince said:
It appeared to me that your logic was that since we already have someone starting at SF, we shouldn't try to get someone else that would want to play "starter minutes". Does that theory only hold true for SF, but not PG? I don't see that being a reason to not upgrade.

Batum could still get his "starters minutes" and Ariza could play the other 30 minutes he's out.
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Ariza is barely better than Batum and Batum will pass him very soon IMO. Ariza shoots 30% from three and can't create for himself or others.

And you said that Ariza could back up Batum but he wouldn't like that probably and the Lakers aren't just going to let him go for back-up cash.
 
VanillaGorilla said:
Ariza is barely better than Batum and Batum will pass him very soon IMO. Ariza shoots 30% from three and can't create for himself or others.

And you said that Ariza could back up Batum but he wouldn't like that probably and the Lakers aren't just going to let him go for back-up cash.
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I'm sure this will come as no surprise. I totally disagree with the first thing you said. Ariza is clearly better than Batum right now. I understand if you question who will be better, but Batum would not play 30 minutes a game in the playoffs for the Lakers this year.

Ariza is shooting 47% from three is the playoffs, so he has shown signs of being able to stroke it from deep.

I said Ariza could be the "backup" in response to the people who are stuck on Batum being a starter despite only playing 18 minutes a game. I have no doubt if Ariza were on our roster next year, Nate would start him over Batum. I have even less doubt that Phil would start Ariza over Batum on the current Laker roster.

I can not imagine Batum shooting 50% from the field and 47% from three throughout four playoff series with Portland this year, while shooting over 8 attempts a game. I can't think of an aspect of the game that Batum is better than. I think they run the break equally as well and they have similar strengths, but Ariza is a way better offensive player at this point.
 
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Tince said:
I'm sure this will come as no surprise. I totally disagree with the first thing you said. Ariza is clearly better than Batum right now. I understand if you question who will be better, but Batum would not play 30 minutes a game in the playoffs for the Lakers this year.

Ariza is shooting 47% from three is the playoffs, so he has shown signs of being able to stroke it from deep.

I said Ariza could be the "backup" in response to the people who are stuck on Batum being a starter despite only playing 18 minutes a game. I have no doubt if Ariza were on our roster next year, Nate would start him over Batum. I have even less doubt that Phil would start Ariza over Batum on the current Laker roster.

I can not imagine Batum shooting 50% from the field and 47% from three throughout four playoff series with Portland this year, while shooting over 8 attempts a game. I can't think of an aspect of the game that Batum is better than. I think they run the break equally as well and they have similar strengths, but Ariza is a way better offensive player at this point.
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They rest of his career he has shot 30% so thats the number I would go by.

I agree than Ariza would start over Batum on any team. And I also agree that Ariza is better, but I don't think its by that much, and I certainly don't think Ariza is a way better offensive player, just a little better. And I do believe Batum will be better soon.
 
If the Lakers finish this out I think Ariza AND Odom are gonna be on the Lakers next year and on. Dr. Buss, the owner, has always been willing to pay for a champion and I think he will keep this team together minus some fringe players. I really do think Odom is going to resign with the Lakers at a resonable price because A: he seems to not want to move anymore B: Why wouldnt you want to play for a possible dynasty? and C: Financial times are tough and a lot of teams will want to save money for the 2010 epic offseason of FA. Odom is a mutitool out there and great insurance for Bynum. Ariza is the future and wont go anywhere...He is also a local guy!

Buss will pay
 
VanillaGorilla said:
They rest of his career he has shot 30% so thats the number I would go by.

I agree than Ariza would start over Batum on any team. And I also agree that Ariza is better, but I don't think its by that much, and I certainly don't think Ariza is a way better offensive player, just a little better. And I do believe Batum will be better soon.
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Normally I'd agree with you, but he only attempted 43 threes in his first four years in the league. He's taken 75 threes this year in the playoffs. Not to mention he has a nice, confidence looking stroke, I would be comfortable splitting the difference when trying to forecast what type of outside shooter he will be. Seem fair?

Batum was left open by other teams, clearly they didn't fear his offense. You don't see teams blatantly living Ariza wide open all game long. It's because one is far superior on offense.
 
DaRizzle said:
If the Lakers finish this out I think Ariza AND Odom are gonna be on the Lakers next year and on. Dr. Buss, the owner, has always been willing to pay for a champion and I think he will keep this team together minus some fringe players. I really do think Odom is going to resign with the Lakers at a resonable price because A: he seems to not want to move anymore B: Why wouldnt you want to play for a possible dynasty? and C: Financial times are tough and a lot of teams will want to save money for the 2010 epic offseason of FA. Odom is a mutitool out there and great insurance for Bynum. Ariza is the future and wont go anywhere...He is also a local guy!

Buss will pay
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That's why he would come to Portland, not stay in LA! :cheers:
 
Yeah..He took 27 3's in five years before joining the Lakers...nobody ever gave him a chance to shoot.


And Da O...Ariza can create a shot for himself. Ive watched every game of his on the Lakers..He can produce a move for a wide open J or drive to the hoop for a soft shot around the rim or a posterizing dunk...he can create
 
Tince said:
Show me how you would distribute 96 minutes between LMA, Oden, Joel, and Varejao,

I want Aldridge playing no less than 36 minutes, and considering he played 37 this year, I don't see that going down.

Oden needs to play as much as possible. I'd love to see him play 30 minutes a game. Only playing Joel 18 minutes would be a crime, but taking more of his minutes for Varejao would be crazy.

So seriously, break down 96 minutes between those four guys.


There is no way IMO we need Varejao more than quality starting SF.
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Between injuries and emergency foul trouble situations you can find enough time. This is the first year Varejao was a starter. He played backup to Drew Gooden for many years. I'm sure as long as he gets paid he'd have no problem coming off the bench.

I already think we have two starting quality forwards in both Batum and Webster. And I would much rather go after Artest or Hedo before I even considered Ariza.
 
Tince said:
Normally I'd agree with you, but he only attempted 43 threes in his first four years in the league. He's taken 75 threes this year in the playoffs. Not to mention he has a nice, confidence looking stroke, I would be comfortable splitting the difference when trying to forecast what type of outside shooter he will be. Seem fair?

Batum was left open by other teams, clearly they didn't fear his offense. You don't see teams blatantly living Ariza wide open all game long. It's because one is far superior on offense.
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I didn't see that number and yes that seems fair enough.

I do remember a lot of teams intentionally leaving Ariza open to help on Kobe, Gasol, Odom, Bynum. Batum shot a good 37% from three and the few times i saw him dribble in and take a mid range shot he made it. He also has shown the ability to pump fake when someone is rotating and get to the hoop and finish, that is mainly how Ariza scores from my observation. I know he is not a good offensive player yet, but I wouldn't call Ariza a great offensive player either,probably average.
 
VanillaGorilla said:
I didn't see that number and yes that seems fair enough.

I do remember a lot of teams intentionally leaving Ariza open to help on Kobe, Gasol, Odom, Bynum. Batum shot a good 37% from three and the few times i saw him dribble in and take a mid range shot he made it. He also has shown the ability to pump fake when someone is rotating and get to the hoop and finish, that is mainly how Ariza scores from my observation. I know he is not a good offensive player yet, but I wouldn't call Ariza a great offensive player either,probably average.
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All the more reason to have both of them! They would be an awesome duo at the SF.
 
Da_O said:
Between injuries and emergency foul trouble situations you can find enough time. This is the first year Varejao was a starter. He played backup to Drew Gooden for many years. I'm sure as long as he gets paid he'd have no problem coming off the bench.

I already think we have two starting quality forwards in both Batum and Webster. And I would much rather go after Artest or Hedo before I even considered Ariza.
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Paying a guy $7,000,000+ a year as insurance in case someone gets hurt seems like a very irresponsible way to use up valuable cap space.
 
DaRizzle said:
Yeah..He took 27 3's in five years before joining the Lakers...nobody ever gave him a chance to shoot.


And Da O...Ariza can create a shot for himself. Ive watched every game of his on the Lakers..He can produce a move for a wide open J or drive to the hoop for a soft shot around the rim or a posterizing dunk...he can create
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Thank you! I only watched about 30 Laker games this year, but I knew I had seen Ariza do plenty off the dribble and in traffic.

How much have you seen of Batum? Do you feel the are similar players?
 
Batum Ive seen probably 10-15 games...I said earlier in the season when this same argument came up that Ariza>Batum by a lot but then of course Ariza sucks ass in most of the games vs POR and I get shitted on..lol, oh well. I like what Ive seen of Batum but I think Ariza is obviously better now and has much room for improvment with his work ethic and the fact that this was his first full season getting decent minutes in the NBA. Couple of foot injuries and coaches decisions have held him back previously.
 
Tince said:
Thank you! I only watched about 30 Laker games this year, but I knew I had seen Ariza do plenty off the dribble and in traffic.

How much have you seen of Batum? Do you feel the are similar players?
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That sounds like plenty of games actually. Ariza is a nice Slasher, his three point shooting has taken an exponential increase and I think he would do well with you guys. I only get upset with his mid range game which he still needs to work on (2 point Jumpers still look ugly), but he still has potential and has only recently got playing time (Luke and Vlad started for us the majority of the regular season). He still needs to improve that dribble-drive a bit and he struggles against the beefier SFs in the league. He's very explosive though and you'll trust him defensively; he's not a lock down defender but he's getting there. He doesn't force the issue and picks his spots so he won't be averaging 15-20 PPG yet. He doesn't have much of a post game. Lastly he struggled with a foot injury last year so all he did was take jumpshots with one of our assistants at practice and it seems that has paid off.

Batum appears like a guy with tons of potential, I do see similarities but I haven't become as familiar with him as other Blazer players. I can't say too much about him but I think he'll be solid enough for Portland if they don't want to waste ~7 million on Trevor.
 
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Tince said:
It appeared to me that your logic was that since we already have someone starting at SF, we shouldn't try to get someone else that would want to play "starter minutes". Does that theory only hold true for SF, but not PG? I don't see that being a reason to not upgrade.

Batum could still get his "starters minutes" and Ariza could play the other 30 minutes he's out.
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No my philosophy is to get a vet to come in and play the bulk of the minutes so in 2 years the position is all Batum's. If we bring in a younger player, both he and Batum will want starters minutes in the future and both will be peaking at the same time, we'd have to get rid of one, so bringing one in now would be redundant.
 
Tince said:
Paying a guy $7,000,000+ a year as insurance in case someone gets hurt seems like a very irresponsible way to use up valuable cap space.
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You said it yourself that Cleveland was paying Varejao around 6 last year. And until this year he was the backup PF for them. He isn't even guaranteed to get 7 million, I don't know why you keep throwing that number out there.

You keep making it sound like that is my first option when I've clearly stated I'd rather us target Hedo or Artest or Miller first. Varejao is more like a last option, personally I'd rather us address PF in the draft.

I've watched enough Laker games to know that Ariza's ability to create a shot is minimalistic. He doesn't have a great handle to get by his man and he's not great at shooting off the dribble. I'd put his shot creating abilities on par with Outlaw's. Ariza just brings to the table more stuff that we already have. It's a poor waste of cap space for someone that brings redundancy. One thing Ariza does do well however, is finish around the rim. Ranking second among small forwards in free-throw rate, eighth in rebound rate, and fourth in field-goal percentage. He shot 67.1 percent in the immediate basket area last year and 61.3 percent the year before, so clearly he can finish at the rim. But he's been in the league for five years, there's not a lot of evidence showing that he's going to be anything more than an NBA journeymen.
 
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Tince said:
Normally I'd agree with you, but he only attempted 43 threes in his first four years in the league. He's taken 75 threes this year in the playoffs. Not to mention he has a nice, confidence looking stroke, I would be comfortable splitting the difference when trying to forecast what type of outside shooter he will be. Seem fair?

Batum was left open by other teams, clearly they didn't fear his offense. You don't see teams blatantly living Ariza wide open all game long. It's because one is far superior on offense.
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He did take 191 threes in the regular season and only made 31% (61) of them. Batum shot almost as many at 168 and actually made one more (62) while shooting 37% so I would say Batum has proven he is a better three point shooter, even though he is 5 years younger.
 
Why would you trade for a SF? you already have a good fit in Outlaw... he was just injured last season. Leave Ariza to us ^^
 
Tince said:
Show me how you would distribute 96 minutes between LMA, Oden, Joel, and Varejao,
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easy, trade Joel for another position of need. Certainly he'd be a very valuable chip on the market and Portland would have three young frontcourt studs to split the 96.

STOMP
 
Da_O said:
You said it yourself that Cleveland was paying Varejao around 6 last year. And until this year he was the backup PF for them. He isn't even guaranteed to get 7 million, I don't know why you keep throwing that number out there.

You keep making it sound like that is my first option when I've clearly stated I'd rather us target Hedo or Artest or Miller first. Varejao is more like a last option, personally I'd rather us address PF in the draft.

I've watched enough Laker games to know that Ariza's ability to create a shot is minimalistic. He doesn't have a great handle to get by his man and he's not great at shooting off the dribble. I'd put his shot creating abilities on par with Outlaw's. Ariza just brings to the table more stuff that we already have. It's a poor waste of cap space for someone that brings redundancy. One thing Ariza does do well however, is finish around the rim. Ranking second among small forwards in free-throw rate, eighth in rebound rate, and fourth in field-goal percentage. He shot 67.1 percent in the immediate basket area last year and 61.3 percent the year before, so clearly he can finish at the rim. But he's been in the league for five years, there's not a lot of evidence showing that he's going to be anything more than an NBA journeymen.
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I'll try to bump this thread when Varejao opts out and his agent says how much he wants. Then, we'll bump it again when we see what he actually gets. He was unhappy when he signed his current contract because he thought he was getting screwed, and he's more established now, than he was then, so I don't see him opting out and taking less money, do you? I use the 7 million figure because it's slightly more than what he's making now and still within the range of what we can offer him, which is way too much.

The Laker fans who have contributed to this thread (thank you by the way), all seem to think he is a much better offensive player than you are giving him credit for. If we're looking for statistical evidence to forecast his ccareer, then we should do the same for Batum. His numbers we not off the charts either. In fact, Ariza's rookie numbers are as good if not better than Batum's.

I'm really surprised that he doesn't pass the eye ball test to more Blazer fans. I know most people overrate their own players, but I wouldn't think it would be this bad.
 
DaRizzle said:
If the Lakers finish this out I think Ariza AND Odom are gonna be on the Lakers next year and on. Dr. Buss, the owner, has always been willing to pay for a champion and I think he will keep this team together minus some fringe players. I really do think Odom is going to resign with the Lakers at a resonable price because A: he seems to not want to move anymore B: Why wouldnt you want to play for a possible dynasty? and C: Financial times are tough and a lot of teams will want to save money for the 2010 epic offseason of FA. Odom is a mutitool out there and great insurance for Bynum. Ariza is the future and wont go anywhere...He is also a local guy!

Buss will pay
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You are hallucinating.

Buss is ALREADY going to pay.

What you mean when you say "Buss will pay" (to keep both Odom and Ariza) is that "Buss will pay even more and become one of the biggest luxury tax teams".

That isn't going to happen.

The monster extension to Bynum has sealed the fate of the Laker forward rotation. Unless both Odom and Ariza agree to split $10mil between them, one is gone.
 
kobe23 said:
Why would you trade for a SF? you already have a good fit in Outlaw... he was just injured last season. Leave Ariza to us ^^
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Outlaw is only effective at the power forward position unfortunately. Otherwise, you would have a point.

And I don't think he was injured at all. Maybe you are thinking of Webster?
 
LittleAlex said:
Outlaw is only effective at the power forward position unfortunately. Otherwise, you would have a point.

And I don't think he was injured at all. Maybe you are thinking of Webster?
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I'd give them Outlaw for Ariza
 
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