Should we Simonize?

[Strenuus]

I dunno who this guy is. But this is funny

God damnit that's good shit right there lmao.

 

[AldoTrapani]

I think we all just need to trust players when they say someone has game. Guys like dame for years has been pumping up Ant for years saying hes gonna be a star. These guys are the first to know. Ant must have been killing in practice.

The same happened with Devin Booker. From Durant to Lebron, everyone and anyone was hyping Booker up as being a star, and it only manifested years after.

Yup Will Barton told a story about that with Dame. How he know he was going to be a star their rookie year

 

[Natebishop3]

not what I'm saying. What I am saying is don't trade Dame, and that Simons is not anywhere close to reason enough to think otherwise

Simons is going to get paid. Is he a shooting guard?

 

[TBpup]

IF...'you' think Ant could replace say, 80% of what Dame produces, and you could get a massive haul for Dame, do you think about it?

• It's one of the best ways to increase the talent you are woefully short on
• It would go a LONG way to re-setting a bad cap situation given the record
• You also then move on from CJ which also helps the cap and should get you a couple more pieces
• With all the assets in return and in the future, would you really be any worse than you have been in Play-In/#6-8 years?
• You lose some of your cache' the in community, but there is fresh reasons to grab and grow with the new roster

6th - 2 Playoff wins
8th - 1 Playoff win
3rd - 8 Playoff wins
3rd - 0 Playoff wins
8th - 0 Playoff wins
5th - 5 Playoff wins
4th - 1 Playoff win
5th - 5 Playoff wins
11th - DNQ

23 total playoff wins (takes 16 to win a title) in 9 seasons and counting.
Average of 2.5 Playoff wins per season.


This is not to advocate trading Dame in the least, but it is a GM's job to consider ALL alternatives and you have to look at the success you have had versus what you can get going forward and taking in to account the cap impact in future years. IF you could get a big haul and you have a better than average replacement option for your franchise player, does it put that franchise in a better position going forward? Most often when a team trades their 'star', they don't have anyone waiting in the wings that would come anywhere close to replacing (at least on the court) the production they are losing.

Anthony Davis?
Kawai Leonard?
James Harden?
Kevin Durant?
Paul George?

There was no immediate backup for any of those players that at least had the possible potential to relatively fill the large departing shoes.

The Blazers have won 4 of their last 7. That is their second best stretch this season, second only to a fully healthy starting lineup of Dame/CJ/Norm/RoCo/Nurk. Only one time all season was there a better stretch and that has been done with Ant/Nas/Nurk.....and whomever was left to play. But other things have also been evident. The effort has been greater even if the talent has not been. The scoring/shot balance has been MUCH better which also leads to better effort on the other end. It's tough to be asked to just play defense and rarely see the ball and have no offensive rhythm.

Dame has meant a TON to this franchise, but it hasn't translated to higher levels of success. Could his biggest impact be in what he were to get in return? Given where the team is and has been most seasons, it seems like at least something to be explored. It's always hard to let go of someone/something you love, but if it hasn't come close to the goal you have set, what do you do?

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

If you plan/rebuild with Simons you have to get a defensive minded SG - you can’t have a non-defensive backcourt again and expect things to change/improve from the last decade of Dame/CJ.

 

[Cugel]

Dame and Ant is the same as Dame and CJ, no? You have to pay Ant so Norm probably has to go along with CJ. If you pay Ant you trade Dame, I say.

 

[TBpup]

If you plan/rebuild with Simons you have to get a defensive minded SG - you can’t have a non-defensive backcourt again and expect things to change/improve from the last decade of Dame/CJ.

This. We can't have Dame/CJ 2.0.

The Blazers were at their best when Dame had length and defense around him. He just never really had another playmaker. It's why I think Simmons would go so well with either Dame or Ant.

 

[wizenheimer]

Simons is going to get paid. Is he a shooting guard?

he was for his first 200 games

 

[Natebishop3]

This. We can't have Dame/CJ 2.0.

The Blazers were at their best when Dame had length and defense around him. He just never really had another playmaker. It's why I think Simmons would go so well with either Dame or Ant.

Some fans are a glutton for punishment.

 

[BBert]

25% of the cap or 29.5M in the first year of a 5 year 173M dollar contract according to spotrac but that was with the extension, I'm not sure if that number goes up or down now that he's a RFA.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/portland-trail-blazers/anfernee-simons-26990/

Jeebus!

 

[BBert]

25% of the cap or 29.5M in the first year of a 5 year 173M dollar contract according to spotrac but that was with the extension, I'm not sure if that number goes up or down now that he's a RFA.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/portland-trail-blazers/anfernee-simons-26990/

[double post]

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

Thybulle and Dort — SG targets

Herb Jones — PF target

D
E
F
E
N
S
E

 

[BBert]

This. We can't have Dame/CJ 2.0.

The Blazers were at their best when Dame had length and defense around him. He just never really had another playmaker. It's why I think Simmons would go so well with either Dame or Ant.

If it's Ant, it would be Simmons' team. I'm not really comfortable with that. The only player Simmons might listen to and defer to, and who might be able to keep his head straight, is Dame. IMO, if we could get Simmons we have to pair him with Dame.

 

[illmatic99]

25% of the cap or 29.5M in the first year of a 5 year 173M dollar contract according to spotrac but that was with the extension, I'm not sure if that number goes up or down now that he's a RFA.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/portland-trail-blazers/anfernee-simons-26990/

I don't think he gets that. North of 20 mil yes, but still only been a few weeks of play at this level. Not saying it's the same, but this stretch from Ant is a lot like what Linsanity did until he got scouted. (NY didn't match the heavily backloaded contract Morey threw at him as a RFA in 2012).

 

[KSF-ERIC]

Trading away Simons now for a Dale Davis "all star" big man could be far worse than letting Jermaine O'Neal go two decades ago.

It shocks me so many fans are arguing for this same type of strategy again. At least that Blazers team was a legit contender. This roster is a lottery bound pile of frustration with hardly any long term upside.

This Blazers team should be trading away mediocre veterans for upside, not trading away just about their only upside player for mediocre veterans.

Dale Davis has long retired and is unavailable. But would you really pass up Ben Simmons or Jaylen Brown or Julius Randle for Simons. If we’re gonna have this discussion, let’s talk about actual players. Who here wants to trade Simons for a “mediocre vet”?

 

[TBpup]

Dale Davis has long retired and is unavailable. But would you really pass up Ben Simmons or Jaylen Brown or Julius Randle for Simons. If we’re gonna have this discussion, let’s talk about actual players. Who here wants to trade Simons for a “mediocre vet”?

I don't think anyone wants to trade Ant for a mediocre vet. In fact, it's more the possibility that Ant might bring something of significant value that could potentially help acquire something that is a longer, lengthier, more defensive oriented fit with Dame.

 

[KSF-ERIC]

I probably lack imagination but I only see Ant as three possible things while Dame is still here (which I hope is for like 7 more years). Ant will be CJ 2.0, a guy starting next to Dame who is incredibly talented but brings Dame and team cohesiveness down because he has the same strengths and weaknesses as Dame or Ant will be a very overpaid backup to a guy that logs some of the most minutes in the league and a backup that for the previously mentioned reasons shouldn't play much if at all with the starter he's backing up or Ant will be trade capital.

The Ant dilemma should not be too hard for any of us to figure out. It is the same stupid fucking thing this team has been unwilling to address correctly for 6 years. This is the same thing as Dame/CJ. If we don't handle it the right way then it will be the Dame/Ant situation and almost everyone will hate it.

Difference is Ant is much younger than CJ and can be an investment into our future.

 

[wizenheimer]

Difference is Ant is much younger than CJ and can be an investment into our future.

Ant is less than 2 years younger than CJ when CJ became the starter next to Dame. It was a bad idea from then on

If it's a choice between Dame/CJ with CJ at 33M/year, or Dame/Ant with Ant at 18M/year it's an easy choice....Ant. But that's also a 'been-there-done-that-and-it-doesn't-work' choice

Dame is not going to be traded unless he asks out and that's unlikely. So then in the CJ-Powell-Ant conundrum I'd say that at least two need to be traded. Portland has to abandon the length-challenged wing rotation

 

[KSF-ERIC]

Ant is less than 2 years younger than CJ when CJ became the starter next to Dame. It was a bad idea from then on

If it's a choice between Dame/CJ with CJ at 33M/year, or Dame/Ant with Ant at 18M/year it's an easy choice....Ant. But that's also a 'been-there-done-that-and-it-doesn't-work' choice

Dame is not going to be traded unless he asks out and that's unlikely. So then in the CJ-Powell-Ant conundrum I'd say that at least two need to be traded. Portland has to abandon the length-challenged wing rotation

Yes but Ant could replace Dame in a few years while old CJ could not.

 

[KSF-ERIC]

Let’s not completely undersell the Dame and CJ era. 23 playoff wins is a lot. It is 23 more than Sacramento in the same period. Dame/CJ have more playoff wins than the Lakers in that period. The fact is Dame/CJ have never had the right team around them. And even then, with Mo and Aminu, they reached the WCF with a hobbled Freedom as our only center. Add Paul George or even Harrison Barnes and the Dame/CJ team would’ve gone further.

that said…..

We are staring at an opportunity to start over and build around Ant and Nas. We could pull in a lot of young talent if we trade Dame and CJ.

I agree with this. I love love love Dame but the younger version is right in front of us and should never come off the bench again.

Giannis JUST turned 27. That's a massive difference from a 31 year old Dame. So you're saying we should run it back with the pint-sized twins? Just this time replacing CJ with Ant? That has worked SO WELL for us over the last six years or so. I'm not saying that Ant or Nas are superstars, but we could potentially trade Dame for someone at another non-guard position that could grow into a 1A to Simons 1B.

Simons and Nas are nice pieces to start a rebuild. You move Dame/CJ/Powell/Nurk/RoCo for other picks and young talent on the same timeline.

To argue the other side, the difference in the Dame/Ant era would be that they are surrounded by better talent than Dame/CJ. In theory CJ/Powell lands us an equal talent at a position of need. Our 4 best scorers right now are guards. Two of them for a Jermaine Grant, Jaylen Brown, or Ben Simmons would make us a way better team than we were with Dame/CJ.

I don't think he gets that. North of 20 mil yes, but still only been a few weeks of play at this level. Not saying it's the same, but this stretch from Ant is a lot like what Linsanity did until he got scouted. (NY didn't match the heavily backloaded contract Morey threw at him as a RFA in 2012).

This has also crossed my mind. Simons is reminding me of Linsanity. Hopefully, Simons’ success has legs.

 

[wizenheimer]

Let’s not completely undersell the Dame and CJ era. 23 playoff wins is a lot.

23 is a lot. In fact, it's 7 more than the 16 playoff wins the Dame/CJ team actually had. But 16 is a lot smaller number than the 30 losses they had

The fact is Dame/CJ have never had the right team around them.

lol..."fact"?

Add Paul George or even Harrison Barnes and the Dame/CJ team would’ve gone further.

and if Portland had drafted Giannis instead of CJ they could have won it all by now...a couple of times

 

[KSF-ERIC]

23 is a lot. In fact, it's 7 more than the 16 playoff wins the Dame/CJ team actually had. But 16 is a lot smaller number than the 30 losses they had



lol..."fact"?



and if Portland had drafted Giannis instead of CJ they could have won it all by now...a couple of times

Someone in this thread said 23 wins and I ran with it, my bad.

What about the comment you laughed at? You think Dame/CJ have had the right team built around them? As for Giannis, lots of teams passed on him. Draft is a crapshoot. If he was obviously better than CJ, we would’ve taken him.

 

[Strenuus]

Someone in this thread said 23 wins and I ran with it, my bad.

What about the comment you laughed at? You think Dame/CJ have had the right team built around them? As for Giannis, lots of teams passed on him. Draft is a crapshoot. If he was obviously better than CJ, we would’ve taken him.

We had olshey.

Two words: Zach Collins. Lol.

I wonder if Giannis was even on his radar at all?

 

[illmatic99]

This has also crossed my mind. Simons is reminding me of Linsanity. Hopefully, Simons’ success has legs.

a few parallels here. injury ridden team gave him the ball out of necessity, same age. but ant has been given opportunities to play before and has a scouting report on him, unlike Lin, who was in and out of the league at the time. Ant's usage isn't as high as Lin's seemed during his run. But the dropoff after that one game for JL against Miami was drastic.

melo feeling jealous also didn't help.

 

[wizenheimer]

What about the comment you laughed at? You think Dame/CJ have had the right team built around them?

I laughed because you called it a "fact". The "right team"...what does that even mean? Sure, Dame & CJ might have won a championship if the front court was Giannis, Gobert, and Paul George. But that's not reality. Funny thing is Portland could have had Giannis out of the 2013 draft. They could have had Gobert from that same draft. Both were there for the taking. They might have been able to add Paul George or Jimmy Butler, but olshey's ridiculous man-love for CJ kept either of those additions from potentially happening

the irony is the biggest believer in the Dame/CJ back court was the guy that closed off every opportunity at building a contender around them, or at least around Dame. That man-love has been the 7 year obstruction to contention

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

 

[B-Roy]

This is saying he’s a good screen defender????

 

[TBpup]

Well, that is encouraging.

 

[Hoopguru]

Look like the bidding has started for Ben.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

I laughed because you called it a "fact". The "right team"...what does that even mean? Sure, Dame & CJ might have won a championship if the front court was Giannis, Gobert, and Paul George. But that's not reality. Funny thing is Portland could have had Giannis out of the 2013 draft. They could have had Gobert from that same draft. Both were there for the taking. They might have been able to add Paul George or Jimmy Butler, but olshey's ridiculous man-love for CJ kept either of those additions from potentially happening

the irony is the biggest believer in the Dame/CJ back court was the guy that closed off every opportunity at building a contender around them, or at least around Dame. That man-love has been the 7 year obstruction to contention

Look at the huge contracts Neil's rosters were paying in the Dame CJ era;

Evan Turner $75 million, Meyers Leonard $40 million, Allen Crabbe $75 million, Hassan Whiteside $25 million per year, Kent Bazemore $25 million per year. Derrick Jones Jr $10 million per year. Looking at the season ending in 2024 multiple years from now, the Blazers will still be paying Andrew Nickolson $2.8 million on the salary cap and luxury tax!

The lack of a quality starter or even great 6th man to go with Dame CJ teams was the problem with those rosters. You remove CJ and give Neil that salary cap space and do you think the team would've magically been a contender?

Plug any one of those big names you list to a Dame CJ backcourt and we might have seen a contending year. There was plenty of salary space for all 3. The problem with Neil was wasting tens of millions of salary space on worthless players, and not having any above average NBA players outside of Dame CJ.

CJ might not be the solution to winning a title, but he wasn't the primary problem.