TPP Is the Most Brazen Corporate Power Grab in American History

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I also want to drink the Middle East's milkshake

I don't. I want to see them burn their own shake using camel chips for wicks. But on the serious side, you have had two days now to give us the straight scoop on this TPP.
My gut says no, and this thing is too fucking hard to read, so it's on you! What the heck is the answer? Oh I am happy to see Trump says no, must be his gut feel too.
 
But on the serious side, you have had two days now to give us the straight scoop on this TPP.
My gut says no, and this thing is too fucking hard to read, so it's on you! What the heck is the answer? Oh I am happy to see Trump says no, must be his gut feel too.

I'm still trying to learn more. I haven't found much to like so far.
 
Trump isn't going to read 5000 pages of surrendering the nation to foes overseas.

He's going to have assistants read it and explain it to him. Which is fine.
 
Trump isn't going to read 5000 pages of surrendering the nation to foes overseas.

He's going to have assistants read it and explain it to him. Which is fine.

Denny! Nice to see you tear yourself away from the Hillary email obsession. So I take it that you think the TPP is no good?
 
Jim Balsillie fears TPP could cost Canada hundreds of billions of dollars and become ‘worst-ever’ policy move

OTTAWA — Jim Balsillie warns that provisions tucked into the Trans-Pacific Partnership could cost Canada hundreds of billions of dollars — and eventually make signing it the worst public policy decision in the country’s history.

After poring over the treaty’s final text, the businessman who helped build Research In Motion into a $20-billion global player said the deal contains “troubling” rules on intellectual property that threaten to make Canada a “permanent underclass” in the economy of selling ideas.

Last month, in the middle of the election campaign, the Conservative government put Canada’s signature on the controversial 12-country pact. The Pacific Rim agreement, which includes the massive American and Japanese economies, has been described as the world’s largest-ever trade zone.

But Balsillie said parts of the deal will harm Canadian innovators by forcing them to play by rules set by the treaty’s most-dominant partner: the United States.

The fallout could prove costly for Canada because technologies created by these entrepreneurs have the potential to create huge amounts of wealth for the economy, he says.

“I’m not a partisan actor, but I actually think this is the worst thing that the Harper government has done for Canada,” the former co-chief executive of RIM said in an interview after studying large sections of the 6,000-page document, released to the public last week.

“I think in 10 years from now, we’ll call that the signature worst thing in policy that Canada’s ever done…

“It’s a treaty that structures everything forever — and we can’t get out of it.”

http://business.financialpost.com/n...-of-dollars-and-become-worst-ever-policy-move
 
Denny! Nice to see you tear yourself away from the Hillary email obsession. So I take it that you think the TPP is no good?

I haven't seen Obama has made any good trade deals at all. Clinton had Ron Brown as secy of trade and he was awesome.

I'm not sure why you need 5000+ pages of rules and regulations to be able to pay $500 for a phone made in China.
 
Trump Was Right About TPP Benefitting China

Donald Trump lambasted the Trans-Pacific Partnership at Tuesday night’s Republican presidential debate, contending that China would use it to “take advantage of everyone” – generating snickers from journalists and a withering refutation from Rand Paul, who said “we might want to point out that China is not part of this deal.”

But Trump never suggested that China was part of the TPP, only that they would “come in, as they always do, through the back door” of the agreement. And he was right.

The TPP does indeed allow China and other non-members to reap benefits from the deal without having to abide by any of its terms.

Here’s how it works: TPP and other free trade deals allow signatories to exchange goods without tariffs. But we live in a complicated world, with source materials derived from one country often traveling through a supply chain to another and completed in a third before moving to a retail market.

To cope with this, TPP adds a “rule of origin” chapter to determine whether an amalgamated good qualifies for tariff-free status. This is particularly important in Southeast Asian nations like Vietnam or Malaysia, which get a significant amount of production materials from China.

TPP says that all materials that go into a good, outside of a de minimis 10 percent, must derive from TPP countries. However, there are numerous exceptions and exemptions, along with a confusing set of calculations to determine eligibility. Through these cracks in the agreement, as Trump alluded, China can deliver goods to TPP countries without tariffs.

Right now, the U.S. reserves the right to slap large tariffs on China, as it has done on steel (up to 236 percent), solar panels (up to 78 percent) and tires (up to 88 percent). But under TPP, many products, from agriculture to chemicals to plastics to leather seating, can include up to 60 percent of material from a non-TPP country.

Each product has a specific rule of origin that sets the level of non-TPP material that can be incorporated in a good. The chapter designating which products require which percentages only lists numbers instead of product names, which have to be converted using the international Harmonized Schedule of tariffs.

Green tea, 0902.10 on the Harmonized Schedule, can have a “regional value content” — meaning content from TPP countries — of not less than 40 percent. But that doesn’t mean 40 percent of the content; it means 40 percent of the value of the material, which takes into account shipping, processing, and many other variables. While the final calculations must follow basic accounting principles, they will be by definition inexact, so even more than 60 percent of a good, in reality, could come out of a non-TPP member like China.

Weak rules of origin are most clearly seen in auto production, which has its own special “net cost” method of calculating rule of origin. As Teamsters President James Hoffa has pointed out, while under NAFTA 62.5 percent of a car had to be made in a member country, with TPP that number goes down to 45 percent. An additional schedule of other parts would be considered as coming from a TPP country regardless of its origins, lowering the rule of origin to as much as 35 percent. A car could even be labeled “Made in America,” despite having the majority of its partsoriginating from China. That includes Chinese steel, currently subject to massive tariffs for U.S. import.

Rules of origin for textiles are allegedly more stringent, but they include a “short supply” list, allowing TPP countries to get their materials from non-TPP nations if they are in short supply within the TPP zone. This includes nearly 200 different fabrics, even certain types of cottons, any of which could come from China and get preferential tariff treatment.

There are also loopholes available. Take for instance Article 3.6, “Materials Used in Production.” This says that, if non-originating material undergoes further production in an originating country, then that material would be treated as originating. So you can imagine a disassembled Chinese product, shipped to Vietnam, put on a production line for completion, and delivered tariff-free to the United States.

Importers and exporters make certifications for the rules of origin, and if they can source materials more cheaply from China or elsewhere, they have an incentive to fudge the numbers to maintain their supply chain. No certification is needed for shipments under $1,000, meaning any scheme to ship large quantities in small segments could slip past inspection.

TPP members can inspect goods, but it’s not as simple as looking at a shirt and divining what part of it came from a certain country; enforcement is difficult and expensive. Brunei, Malaysia, Mexico, Peru and Vietnam have five years to institute a certification system for rules of origin, giving time for importers to maintain their existing systems and figure out how to game TPP rules.

So China would not have to raise any standards or comply with any TPP rules, yet still be able to produce millions of auto parts and textiles for TPP countries at a lower cost, without the burden of tariffs. “This will undoubtedly hurt the competitiveness of American manufacturers, particularly the American auto industry,” said Rep. Dan Kildee (D-Michl.), an opponent of TPP.

While Trump’s bluster certainly could be mistaken for ignorance about TPP, in this case he’s right: China can get their goods to the U.S. and other countries through the back door, in a number of ways, and take advantage of TPP without being part of the agreement. Our trade deficit with China, which for the first 9 months of the year stood at $273 billion, would likely not appreciably change after the agreement, despite the additional trading partners.

Watch the exchange between Trump and Paul:
 
The TPP does indeed allow China and other non-members to reap benefits from the deal without having to abide by any of its terms.

Exactly! Not only is TPP bad in so many ways. It does nothing to help correct the unbalanced trade we have with China. I find it strange that so many people find Paul's comment revealing, when I find it irrelevant to what Trump is talking about
 
Exactly! Not only is TPP bad in so many ways. It does nothing to help correct the unbalanced trade we have with China. I find it strange that so many people find Paul's comment revealing, when I find it irrelevant to what Trump is talking about
Yeah, I was like "WTF have these people been reading?!?!"
 
I'm not quite sure I understand the point of your very long quoted article. It seems to be saying that TPP is bad because it doesn't close all possible loopholes re: China. Well, ok, then any agreement is going to be bad.

If China can sell to Vietnam and Vietnam can resell to the US under the TPP, they can surely do so now.

barfo
 
I'm not quite sure I understand the point of your very long quoted article. It seems to be saying that TPP is bad because it doesn't close all possible loopholes re: China. Well, ok, then any agreement is going to be bad.

If China can sell to Vietnam and Vietnam can resell to the US under the TPP, they can surely do so now.

barfo
That is only one part of it. There is also a provision where corporations can hire as many foreign workers as they want without congress approval.

Also, I agree with Trump regarding deals should be individual with each country. I don't make a blanket contract for all my customers. They are itemized per customer so if one fails, you can eliminate that one customer. When they are all blanketed in the contract, everyone is effected if you have to take one out.
 
corporations can hire as many foreign workers as they want without congress approval

I don't even like this idea with congressional approval, no way without it. Bill Gates screwed the engineers and Programmers in this country twenty years ago
doing this shit, and he got congressional approval (others followed).
 
I don't even like this idea with congressional approval, no way without it. Bill Gates screwed the engineers and Programmers in this country twenty years ago
doing this shit, and he got congressional approval (others followed).
The "congress approval" is part of the process. The reason why they don't want to overstep this obstacle is knowing congress process takes too long and cost the billionaires more money. It's really sad how our government is diluting the constitution like they are right now.
 
Not sure where you guys are getting your information about TPP, and I'm not saying the white house would never lie to you, but here's what they say about that issue:


Will TPP disrupt our immigration system or affect domestic immigration law?”
No. There is nothing in TPP that changes U.S. immigration law, policy, or practice. TPP explicitly recognizes and affirms the ability of each country to regulate the entry of foreign nationals into their territory according to their own domestic laws.

The United States did not agree to anything in TPP that would require any modification to the U.S. immigration system or any changes to the U.S. visa system.

TPP does include a short chapter on temporary entry, which is narrow in scope and would not require any change in U.S. immigration law, policy, or practice. Although other countries have made commitments in this area, the United States has not made any temporary entry commitments.

barfo
 
Here's what the Internet hates about the TPP trade deal

Investor-state dispute settlement
While it isn’t part of the IP chapter, the TPP comes with its own legal system, called the investor-state dispute settlement, which shows why it’s such a big deal if each member country adopts the new measures. In theory, the ISDS is a kind of court to help resolve trade disputes. But the consumer-advocacy group Public Citizen warns that it actually “would not meet standards of transparency, consistency, or due process common to TPP countries’ domestic legal systems or provide fair, independent, or balanced venues.”

When would such disputes arise? Internet-rights group the Electronic Frontier Foundation notes that in 2011, Australia, in addressing the fact that cigarettes were among the leading causes of preventable death in the country, passed the Plain Packaging Act, which denied cigarette manufacturers from branding packs of cigarettes. U.S.-based cigarette manufacturer Philip Morris sued, unsuccessfully, over that law, citing a different trade agreement. The TPP’s legal system, the EFF argues, “can be characterized as a tool for private industry to directly undermine democracy and any public interest rule.”

The Office of the United States Trade Representative, which argued the U.S.’s stance for the TPP, previously told the Daily Dot that it wouldn’t agree to anything that contradicts U.S. law—in particular, when it comes to intellectual property, the oft-criticized 1998 Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA). But a close reading, the EFF found, revealed that while the IP chapter seemed to strike a balance between regular Internet users and copyright holders, “all of the provisions that recognize the rights of the public are non-binding, whereas almost everything that benefits rightsholders is binding.”

Extended copyright terms
The TPP finds that copyright on works can last 70 years before they’re released into the public domain. Different countries have different standards on a copyright’s expiration date. Canada, say, or Malaysia—both TPP nations—currently have 50-year terms. That means that it’s currently perfectly legal there to share a movie or book or album from 1945-1965. But once Canada adopts the TPP, a person there can be accused of, and sued for, copyright infringement for sharing content of that age—and expect to face the ISDS instead of a real court. As Canadian copyright expert Michael Geist has noted, this also means that Canada will have to adopt the U.S. copyright “takedown” system, which legally compels websites to take down content if someone claims they hold the copyright to it.

ISP liability
A central way that the DMCA deals with piracy revolves around the concept of “safe harbor.” In essence, a website isn’t responsible if a user posts copyrighted content—otherwise, how would Facebook, or Tumblr, or any major site survive the onslaught of lawsuits?—provided that site is quick to take down that content when a copyright owner sends a DMCA notice. Technically, though, a copyright owner can sue a user’s Internet provider if they think that user is a repeat pirate and insist that the ISP block that user from getting online. In practice, this rarely happens, though there is one prominent copyright enforcement service, RightsCorp, that’s made kicking users offline part of its business model.

Since the TPP follows the DMCA’s lead on safe harbor, that means that copyright holders in one TPP nation can sue those in another over alleged piracy. It can be quite easy to be falsely accused of piracy, and in the past, major copyright holders have had no problems with suing regular users for hundreds of millions of dollars over claims of copyright infringement. And remember, these claims can go to the ISDS.

DRM
Digital rights management, or DRM, is a broad term, but it boils down to the basic sense of “locks” on electronics. Remember how iTunes used to let you “rent” songs, rather than buy them, meaning you couldn’t send them to friends or play them on non-Apple devices? The concept extends to hardware, like how you’re not supposed to use Keurig coffeemakers or John Deere tractors for anything other their intended purposes.

The general argument against DRM is pretty clear: Customers feel like they should be able to do whatever they want with items they pay for, and that includes hacking them to see how they work or repurposing them for something else. The DMCA criminalizes DRM circumvention, which is harsher than a number of other TPP countries’ existing laws.

But the intellectual property chapter would enforce the DMCA’s provision in every country, criminalizing anyone who “circumvents without authority any effective technological measure that controls access to a protected work, performance, or phonogram.”

Cybersecurity
Another provision of the TPP, designed to protect the interests of software developers prevents nations from demanding source code.

In theory, this would help prevent piracy and protect the rights of those developers. But it also means that if the source code is secret, there are far fewer eyes searching for potential flaws—a key part of good cybersecurity—increasing the likelihood that the digital products we use can be hacked and our data exploited.

Stewart Baker, a lawyer who specializes in national security and technology issues, wrote in an op-ed in the Washington Post that the U.S. was extremely shortsighted here. “I doubt US security agencies are comfortable letting Vietnam write apps that end up on the phones of their employees without the ability to inspect the source,” he wrote. “In short, this is a tough policy call that is likely to look quite different in five years than it does today.”

http://www.dailydot.com/politics/what-is-tpp-internet-intellectual-property/?tw=dd
 
Here's what the Internet hates about the TPP trade deal

Investor-state dispute settlement
While it isn’t part of the IP chapter, the TPP comes with its own legal system, called the investor-state dispute settlement, which shows why it’s such a big deal if each member country adopts the new measures. In theory, the ISDS is a kind of court to help resolve trade disputes. But the consumer-advocacy group Public Citizen warns that it actually “would not meet standards of transparency, consistency, or due process common to TPP countries’ domestic legal systems or provide fair, independent, or balanced venues.”

When would such disputes arise? Internet-rights group the Electronic Frontier Foundation notes that in 2011, Australia, in addressing the fact that cigarettes were among the leading causes of preventable death in the country, passed the Plain Packaging Act, which denied cigarette manufacturers from branding packs of cigarettes. U.S.-based cigarette manufacturer Philip Morris sued, unsuccessfully, over that law, citing a different trade agreement. The TPP’s legal system, the EFF argues, “can be characterized as a tool for private industry to directly undermine democracy and any public interest rule.”

The Office of the United States Trade Representative, which argued the U.S.’s stance for the TPP, previously told the Daily Dot that it wouldn’t agree to anything that contradicts U.S. law—in particular, when it comes to intellectual property, the oft-criticized 1998 Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA). But a close reading, the EFF found, revealed that while the IP chapter seemed to strike a balance between regular Internet users and copyright holders, “all of the provisions that recognize the rights of the public are non-binding, whereas almost everything that benefits rightsholders is binding.”

Extended copyright terms
The TPP finds that copyright on works can last 70 years before they’re released into the public domain. Different countries have different standards on a copyright’s expiration date. Canada, say, or Malaysia—both TPP nations—currently have 50-year terms. That means that it’s currently perfectly legal there to share a movie or book or album from 1945-1965. But once Canada adopts the TPP, a person there can be accused of, and sued for, copyright infringement for sharing content of that age—and expect to face the ISDS instead of a real court. As Canadian copyright expert Michael Geist has noted, this also means that Canada will have to adopt the U.S. copyright “takedown” system, which legally compels websites to take down content if someone claims they hold the copyright to it.

ISP liability
A central way that the DMCA deals with piracy revolves around the concept of “safe harbor.” In essence, a website isn’t responsible if a user posts copyrighted content—otherwise, how would Facebook, or Tumblr, or any major site survive the onslaught of lawsuits?—provided that site is quick to take down that content when a copyright owner sends a DMCA notice. Technically, though, a copyright owner can sue a user’s Internet provider if they think that user is a repeat pirate and insist that the ISP block that user from getting online. In practice, this rarely happens, though there is one prominent copyright enforcement service, RightsCorp, that’s made kicking users offline part of its business model.

Since the TPP follows the DMCA’s lead on safe harbor, that means that copyright holders in one TPP nation can sue those in another over alleged piracy. It can be quite easy to be falsely accused of piracy, and in the past, major copyright holders have had no problems with suing regular users for hundreds of millions of dollars over claims of copyright infringement. And remember, these claims can go to the ISDS.

DRM
Digital rights management, or DRM, is a broad term, but it boils down to the basic sense of “locks” on electronics. Remember how iTunes used to let you “rent” songs, rather than buy them, meaning you couldn’t send them to friends or play them on non-Apple devices? The concept extends to hardware, like how you’re not supposed to use Keurig coffeemakers or John Deere tractors for anything other their intended purposes.

The general argument against DRM is pretty clear: Customers feel like they should be able to do whatever they want with items they pay for, and that includes hacking them to see how they work or repurposing them for something else. The DMCA criminalizes DRM circumvention, which is harsher than a number of other TPP countries’ existing laws.

But the intellectual property chapter would enforce the DMCA’s provision in every country, criminalizing anyone who “circumvents without authority any effective technological measure that controls access to a protected work, performance, or phonogram.”

Cybersecurity
Another provision of the TPP, designed to protect the interests of software developers prevents nations from demanding source code.

In theory, this would help prevent piracy and protect the rights of those developers. But it also means that if the source code is secret, there are far fewer eyes searching for potential flaws—a key part of good cybersecurity—increasing the likelihood that the digital products we use can be hacked and our data exploited.

Stewart Baker, a lawyer who specializes in national security and technology issues, wrote in an op-ed in the Washington Post that the U.S. was extremely shortsighted here. “I doubt US security agencies are comfortable letting Vietnam write apps that end up on the phones of their employees without the ability to inspect the source,” he wrote. “In short, this is a tough policy call that is likely to look quite different in five years than it does today.”

http://www.dailydot.com/politics/what-is-tpp-internet-intellectual-property/?tw=dd

I think the whole concept of having an wide ranging block agreement with the force of law, enforced outside our country, is very ill advised if not just wrong. We citizen have no one to hold accountable because we have no representative where the law is enforce nor in institutions with the power to change the laws. Obama will not be accountable, he will be where ever. It doesn't make any sense to subject the people of this nation, to laws setup to benefit a multitude of smaller nations, with no way to correct any unbalance by our directly elected representatives.
 
It doesn't make any sense to subject the people of this nation to laws setup to benefit a multitude of smaller nations with no way to correct any unbalance by our directly elected representatives.

I agree with what you're saying but it seems like it will benefit corporations more than smaller nations. In this agreement corporations will have more power than governments.
 
benefit corporations more than smaller nations

Yes, well just compound corporations and smaller nations. What I said still applies, not right. Especially when you consider the fact, there are many corporations, larger and more powerful than many of the nations involved and we render ourselves, our entire population, impotent and without redress by this agreement.
 
“Is it true that Investor-State Dispute Settlement (ISDS) would allow corporations to override laws, including environmental and public health regulations?
No. ISDS cannot change law in the United States or any other country. No government measure (federal, state, or local) can be blocked or reversed under the ISDS provisions or any other part of TPP. The United States would never negotiate away its right to regulate in the public interest, and we don’t ask other countries to do so either. This is true with regard to public health and safety, the financial sector, the environment, and any other area where governments seek to regulate.

Put simply, ISDS is a mechanism to promote good governance and the rule of law. ISDS protects basic rights — such as protection against discrimination and expropriation without compensation — akin to those enshrined in U.S. law and the Constitution. We already provide these protections at home to foreign and domestic investors under U.S. law. That’s why — although we are party to 51 agreements with ISDS — the U.S. has never lost an ISDS case. Our trade agreements ensure the same kinds of protections to U.S. businesses and investors operating abroad, where they face a heightened risk of discrimination and bias.

barfo
 
Are you for the TPP?

No, my position is as stated earlier in the thread: I have no position, I don't know enough to have a position.
However, it seems like all of the discussion in this thread is on one side of the argument, and some of it is quite misleading.
For example, reading this thread one would get the idea that ISDS is some crazy new thing they snuck into this agreement - it's not, it's been around for decades and is part of various other trade treaties we have, including NAFTA.
That, of course, does not mean it's a good thing - just that it is not a departure from standard trade treaty practice.

barfo
 
No, my position is as stated earlier in the thread: I have no position, I don't know enough to have a position.
However, it seems like all of the discussion in this thread is on one side of the argument, and some of it is quite misleading.
For example, reading this thread one would get the idea that ISDS is some crazy new thing they snuck into this agreement - it's not, it's been around for decades and is part of various other trade treaties we have, including NAFTA.
That, of course, does not mean it's a good thing - just that it is not a departure from standard trade treaty practice.

barfo

Why do you hate America?
 
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