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wizenheimer said:
I wouldn't call it garbage, but for CJ it's definitely an outlier. ESPN's calculations of RPM have become real noisy since John Hollinger left

it's the only stat that makes CJ look good. All the others, PER, TS%, Ast%, winshares, BPM, VORP show CJ as only a little above average. And the play-type stats at NBA.com show the same thing

so when about a dozen different kinds of stats show a player as a little or a bit more above average, and one stat shows him well above average, you have to be skeptical about that one stat

CJ thrives off of volume opportunity; dominating the ball, burning shot clock, and taking lots of shots. But he's not an efficient player at all

by the way, RPM says these guys are better than Dame:

Kyle Lowry, PG Jayson Tatum, PF Duncan Robinson, SG Joel Embiid, C Russell Westbrook, PG Khris Middleton, SF Christian Wood, PF Zion Williamson, SF Kristaps Porzingis, PF
Click to expand...
Don't like RPM? Try WINS:
upload_2020-10-7_12-41-30.png
Interesting that both of them make Tobias Harris look good, too.
 
To be clear: I'm not against trading CJ. I've suggested roughly 5000 CJ trades over the years. I'm not even against trading him to the Knicks. But I'd want these three things as part of it:
1. 2021 First round pick: must be COMPLETELY UNPROTECTED
2. Mitchell Robinson
3. Frank Ntilikina (I'm a fan)

I'd settle for the first two.
 
Rastapopoulos said:
Don't like RPM? Try WINS:
View attachment 33943
Interesting that both of them make Tobias Harris look good, too.
Click to expand...
Got to love these statistics where they will not share how they are calculated....
At least they let you know that WINS is a function of RPM scaled up with playing time. It's basically the same stat.
* RPM: Player's estimated on-court impact on team performance, measured in net point differential per 100 offensive and defensive possessions. RPM takes into account teammates, opponents and additional factors
* WINS: "RPM Wins" provide an estimate of the number of wins each player has contributed to his team's win total on the season. RPM Wins include the player's Real Plus-Minus and his number of possessions played.
Click to expand...
 
Rastapopoulos said:
Don't like RPM? Try WINS:
View attachment 33943
Interesting that both of them make Tobias Harris look good, too.
Click to expand...

it's the same stat simply weighted in favor of minutes. RPM x Minutes. The higher the minutes, the higher RPM wins. All those columns are just RPM

you keep arguing in favor of CJ, or at least against trading him, and you keep using that single stat as your argument, as if that stat is primary in setting CJ's value. If that's true, then Duncan Robinson, Russell Westbrook, Christian Wood, Daniel Theis, Joe Ingles, Shaquille Harrison, D.J. Augustin, Brook Lopez, Patrick Beverley, Nikola Vucevic, Ricky Rubio, Danilo Gallinari, & Dennis Schroder are all better players than CJ with more value, just to name a few

the problem with basing a statistical argument for a player on all aspects of play based upon one single stat is pretty obvious: it could easily be skewed, one way of the other. I mean, according to RPM, Russell Westbrook is a better player than Dame, and we know that's bullshit
 
Rastapopoulos said:
There are some guys who can put up stats but nobody (but terrible franchises) wants. Randle is one of them. Maybe he'll work it out - Zach Randolph did. We'll see. All I know is that he hasn't yet.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I see him as a much more athletic ZBo. I think what would have accelerated ZBo's ascension to all-star/all nba status would have been a leader like Dame and being able to be the second or third option on a really good team instead of so often being tasked with so much on such bad teams that it stunted his development. Look at Randle's performance the one year he wasn't asked to be the man... he was fantastic for the Pelicans. Especially when AD was playing but when AD sat out Randle was still very good because he was still the number two guy, maybe the number one scorer, but definitely the number two to Jrue. He would flourish here especially if we had the ball in Dame's hands the overwhelming majority of time, then had it in Nurk's and third had it in Randle's on offense. On defense he has all of the talents and skills to be very effective defending inside and out. Again, try not to be too enamored with stats for a guy who has only ever been given one season to play with other good ball players. When looking at someone like Randle as a third option you really have to look at the tape to see what skills and talents are there because that's what this team will be getting... not someone who is asked to do everything on his own on a failing team.
 
Rastapopoulos said:
To be clear: I'm not against trading CJ. I've suggested roughly 5000 CJ trades over the years. I'm not even against trading him to the Knicks. But I'd want these three things as part of it:
1. 2021 First round pick: must be COMPLETELY UNPROTECTED
2. Mitchell Robinson
3. Frank Ntilikina (I'm a fan)

I'd settle for the first two.
Click to expand...
So we get cap relief, a guy who is redundant to Nurk, a future first that will undoubtedly be worse than this year's because CJ will help that team so much especially because you are letting them keep a great number two option to CJ in Randle. Oh and then maybe a backup guard that does make more sense for this team. I just don't know if that's enough or does anything to help Dame now. I'd much rather get a guy who has shown he knows how to score and rebound very well and has shown he has the skills and talent to do much more at PF and a proven backup PG who knows how to facilitate offense and defend well... along with the 8th pick this year all of which can potentially help us now.

I think we both agree on one thing, a CJ and Ariza for Harris, Richardson and the 21st pick is a better deal and probably the best deal the Blazers can get to be much better next season.
 
Buffalo Custard said:
2 Bleacher Report proposals for your entertainment.

CJ+Ariza+Little for Middleton+Hill
Collins+Ariza+Hood for Aldridge

That second one shows just how little people around the league think of some of our players.
Click to expand...

Well i suppose both of those are fair trades in terms of value. I don't like the fit of Aldridge though, he is slow for PF.
 
Buffalo Custard said:
2 Bleacher Report proposals for your entertainment.

CJ+Ariza+Little for Middleton+Hill
Collins+Ariza+Hood for Aldridge

That second one shows just how little people around the league think of some of our players.
Click to expand...
If the Bucks would do that first one it would be a really smart and solid deal for both teams. We get a lot better defensively on the perimeter by replacing CJ and Ariza with Gary and Middleton, plus we get the backup guard we need in Hill that can guard both 1s and 2s and can run the offense. I would give up Little in the deal but if Milwaukee proposed the deal I would counter with the 16th pick instead of Little and see if they'd take that but I really like Nas. Hell I might start even lower than that and offer Ant, then if they said no to that offer the 16th and then if they still stuck to their guns I would eventually just give up Little.
 
wizenheimer said:
you keep arguing in favor of CJ, or at least against trading him, and you keep using that single stat as your argument, as if that stat is primary in setting CJ's value. If that's true, then Duncan Robinson, Russell Westbrook, Christian Wood, Daniel Theis, Joe Ingles, Shaquille Harrison, D.J. Augustin, Brook Lopez, Patrick Beverley, Nikola Vucevic, Ricky Rubio, Danilo Gallinari, & Dennis Schroder are all better players than CJ with more value, just to name a few
Click to expand...
Well, you'd have to qualify that as "contributed more to their teams," because that's what all +/- stats are supposed to measure. And obviously that's going to be a relative measure.

I actually prepared a post going through talking about each of the players you picked - and then I realized that of your list, only Westbrook is above CJ in WINS. And as WINS is just RPM adjusted for minutes (according to you), I'll go with WINS.

Okay, so that just leaves Westbrook. Would I trade CJ for him? Hell no. Did he have a great season for the Rockets? Hell yes. People forget because he looked so bad in the Bubble, but he put up some pretty amazing numbers for the Rockets. Certainly surprised me, as I thought they'd never coexist. But they did. Until they didn't.
 
Rastapopoulos said:
Well, you'd have to qualify that as "contributed more to their teams," because that's what all +/- stats are supposed to measure. And obviously that's going to be a relative measure.

I actually prepared a post going through talking about each of the players you picked - and then I realized that of your list, only Westbrook is above CJ in WINS. And as WINS is just RPM adjusted for minutes (according to you), I'll go with WINS.

Okay, so that just leaves Westbrook. Would I trade CJ for him? Hell no. Did he have a great season for the Rockets? Hell yes. People forget because he looked so bad in the Bubble, but he put up some pretty amazing numbers for the Rockets. Certainly surprised me, as I thought they'd never coexist. But they did. Until they didn't.
Click to expand...

don't get me wrong Rasta....I'm not so much pushing back against your defense of CJ as I am against using a single statistical category as a benchmark on a player's value. As you may know, I've been hammered here for posting "paragraphs" of stats, because when I do try to make a statistical gauge of a player, I tend to use as many stats as I can find. I won't use one, I'll use a dozen

I mean, if you're talking about 3 point shooting, then 3 point shooting % is a valid gauge when normalized for attempts. But if you're talking about who are the best scorers and shooters, then efficiency gauges like TS% are integral to the discussion

just to be clear, I wouldn't trade CJ for Tobias Harris because Harris has a bigger flexibility-killing contract, and is a lateral trade talent-wise, although perhaps a little better fit. I'd even have some reservations about trading CJ for Khris Middleton, even though I think Middleton is clearly better. He has a bigger contract for one thing. For another, I just don't think Dame + Middleton significantly alters Portland's trajectory over Dame + CJ. Maybe a little but probably not enough to make a difference

rather than a trade like those, I'd rather see a CJ trade that brought in a decent wing and some needed cap-relief, along with perhaps a draft pick
 
wizenheimer said:
don't get me wrong Rasta....I'm not so much pushing back against your defense of CJ as I am against using a single statistical category as a benchmark on a player's value. As you may know, I've been hammered here for posting "paragraphs" of stats, because when I do try to make a statistical gauge of a player, I tend to use as many stats as I can find. I won't use one, I'll use a dozen

I mean, if you're talking about 3 point shooting, then 3 point shooting % is a valid gauge when normalized for attempts. But if you're talking about who are the best scorers and shooters, then efficiency gauges like TS% are integral to the discussion

just to be clear, I wouldn't trade CJ for Tobias Harris because Harris has a bigger flexibility-killing contract, and is a lateral trade talent-wise, although perhaps a little better fit. I'd even have some reservations about trading CJ for Khris Middleton, even though I think Middleton is clearly better. He has a bigger contract for one thing. For another, I just don't think Dame + Middleton significantly alters Portland's trajectory over Dame + CJ. Maybe a little but probably not enough to make a difference

rather than a trade like those, I'd rather see a CJ trade that brought in a decent wing and some needed cap-relief, along with perhaps a draft pick
Click to expand...
I don't know if I'd do CJ for Harris straight up either but CJ and Ariza for Harris, Richardson and the 21st pick is the CJ trade idea I like the most. Would you be interested in that?
 
GDiama said:
Because Aldridge doesn't fit next to Nurk. I cannot believe you think Ariza is a better player in a vacuum.
Click to expand...

As you say - I just can't see him functioning with Nurk. He might have value for some teams, but I'm not convinced Portland is one of them!
 
Buffalo Custard said:
As you say - I just can't see him functioning with Nurk. He might have value for some teams, but I'm not convinced Portland is one of them!
Click to expand...
I agree, Aldridge is a five now due to having lost several steps, so he would not fit with Nurk. For our purposes and frankly any team who wants to keep their current 5 if that 5 can't guard the perimeter, Ariza at least next year is better than LA. Now if San Antonio called and offered Aldridge straight up for Ariza if we could make that work, then I would get on the phone and see what we could get for LA in a three team deal, from a team that A. valued and could use Aldridge and B. had the extra cap room to absorb the 11 million more that he is making.
 
3 more trade proposals, this time from Fansided. All appear to be pure speculation.

Collins+16 to the Wiz for the 9th pick.
Collins+16 to Detroit for the 7th pick.
Simons+16+46 to the Hawks for the 6th pick.

As a bonus, they also mention Simons + 16 for Reddish. Why would the Hawks do either of those trades?

Fire away!
 
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Buffalo Custard said:
3 more trade proposals, this time from Fansided. All appear to be pure speculation.

Collins+16 to the Wiz for the 9th pick.
Collins+16 to Detroit for the 7th pick.
Simons+16+46 to the Hawks for the 6th pick.

As a bonus, they also mention Simons + 16 for Reddish. Why would the Hawks do either of those trades?

Fire away!
Click to expand...
I wouldn't give up on Zach just yet so I don't think I'd do the first two deals but it would be a tough call. I'd like Simons and the picks for the 6th the best (Toppin might be there at 6 and he's the most NBA ready player in the draft and can play both forward positions) but I'd also pull the trigger on the Cam Reddish deal.
 
I don't think anybody would want Zach that hasn't proven shit or that he can stay healthy. And he also has upcoming extension. Zach would be the last player i would like to get from the Blazers roster if i was to give back a high pick.

Btw Reddish looked amazing after his terrible start. Great improvement game by game.
 
https://ripcityproject.com/2020/10/08/portland-trail-blazers-news-trades-2020-nba-draft/amp/2/

https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.fansided.com%2Flogos%2Fnba%2Ftrailblazers.png

TRAIL BLAZERS GET
2020 #6 PICK


https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.fansided.com%2Flogos%2Fnba%2Fhawks.png

HAWKS GET
ANFERNEE SIMONS
2020 #16 PICK
2020 #46 PICK
--------------------------

https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.fansided.com%2Flogos%2Fnba%2Ftrailblazers.png

TRAIL BLAZERS GET
2020 #9 PICK

https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.fansided.com%2Flogos%2Fnba%2Fwizards.png

WIZARDS GET
ZACH COLLINS
2020 #16 PICK
----------------------------

https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.fansided.com%2Flogos%2Fnba%2Ftrailblazers.png

TRAIL BLAZERS GET
2020 #7 PICK

https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.fansided.com%2Flogos%2Fnba%2Fpistons.png

PISTONS GET
ZACH COLLINS
2020 #16 PICK
 
Why would the Hawks, with Young and Huerter in their backcourt, trade the 6 for Simons and 16? Maybe if SImons had shown anything this season. But he's now out 2 of his rookie years on his contract.
Using a pick with Zach to move up in a worse draft than the one he was in, and still being just beyond where you might want to be would be comically bad and I would hope N.O. would be fired immediately for it. If there was a definite target at those spots? Maybe.
 
Demar Derozan is nowhere near the defender Jimmy is, but all the tools are there offensively. He's elite at drawing fouls and shooting midrange jumpers. And he actually creates offensively at the same level as Butler. Think we just saw the template for non-3pt shooting wings.

Wonder if we can make him fit here and implement a motion oriented, balanced system with him and Dame here.
 
illmatic99 said:
Demar Derozan is nowhere near the defender Jimmy is, but all the tools are there offensively. He's elite at drawing fouls and shooting midrange jumpers. And he actually creates offensively at the same level as Butler. Think we just saw the template for non-3pt shooting wings.

Wonder if we can make him fit here and implement a motion oriented, balanced system with him and Dame here.
Click to expand...
http://www.sportstwo.com/posts/5019381/
 
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