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TorturedBlazerFan said:
KD Paired with Steph pretty good... Dwade and Lebron, I think most, “next level” teams have two guys who at the very least can have the offense go through them and handle the ball reliably.
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LOL....Curry & Durant; Lebron & DWade....Dame and CJ....there's a name there that has no business being there
 
it's one thing to
TorturedBlazerFan said:
KD Paired with Steph pretty good... Dwade and Lebron, I think most, “next level” teams have two guys who at the very least can have the offense go through them and handle the ball reliably.
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two problems...one is that the offense doesn't go thru CJ with anything close to consistent. Much more often, the offense stops at CJ

the 2nd problem is the two guys the offense go thru actually have to be good at isolation. That's not CJ..AT ALL

* for instance, in isolation, Dame scores 1.1o points/possession. That ranks him in the 89th percentile
* CJ is the opposite; he scores 0.83 ppp. That ranks him in 43rd percentile. Over 56% of the NBA is better than CJ at isolation

* in PnR- ball handler, Dame scores 1.14 ppp. That ranks in the 97th percentile
* in PnR- ball handler, CJ scores 0.91 ppp. That ranks him in the 69th percentile (Anfernee is as good as CJ with 0.91 ppp)

* in handoffs, Dame scores 1.19 ppp which ranks in the 90th percentile
* in handoffs, CJ scores 0.88 ppp which ranks in the 46th percentile (Bazemore scores 1.04 ppp)

sorry folks, but CJ simply sucks at one-on-one and iso. He's overrated significantly because he's a clever ball-handler but all that clever ball-handling doesn't yield good results. CJ's TS% is .536 when the league average is about .550. He is in the 86th percentile in spot-up possessions, his best performance in a play type. So that means his TS% on those unassisted plays, about 64% of his plays, is even worse that .536

his assisted FG rate shold be north of 60% rather than near 35%. He is not the guy that Portland should be running one-on-one offense thru as option 1b, and his goddamn dribbling needs to be cut down about 80%
 
wizenheimer said:
it's one thing to


two problems...one is that the offense doesn't go thru CJ with anything close to consistent. Much more often, the offense stops at CJ

the 2nd problem is the two guys the offense go thru actually have to be good at isolation. That's not CJ..AT ALL

* for instance, in isolation, Dame scores 1.1o points/possession. That ranks him in the 89th percentile
* CJ is the opposite; he scores 0.83 ppp. That ranks him in 43rd percentile. Over 56% of the NBA is better than CJ at isolation

* in PnR- ball handler, Dame scores 1.14 ppp. That ranks in the 97th percentile
* in PnR- ball handler, CJ scores 0.91 ppp. That ranks him in the 69th percentile (Anfernee is as good as CJ with 0.91 ppp)

* in handoffs, Dame scores 1.19 ppp which ranks in the 90th percentile
* in handoffs, CJ scores 0.88 ppp which ranks in the 46th percentile (Bazemore scores 1.04 ppp)

sorry folks, but CJ simply sucks at one-on-one and iso. He's overrated significantly because he's a clever ball-handler but all that clever ball-handling doesn't yield good results. CJ's TS% is .536 when the league average is about .550. He is in the 86th percentile in spot-up possessions, his best performance in a play type. So that means his TS% on those unassisted plays, about 64% of his plays, is even worse that .536

his assisted FG rate shold be north of 60% rather than near 35%. He is not the guy that Portland should be running one-on-one offense thru as option 1b, and his goddamn dribbling needs to be cut down about 80%
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Lol, I cannot believe you’re responding to that like Im unaware of the talent gap of CJ, and the others I named heh.
 
wizenheimer said:
it's one thing to


two problems...one is that the offense doesn't go thru CJ with anything close to consistent. Much more often, the offense stops at CJ

the 2nd problem is the two guys the offense go thru actually have to be good at isolation. That's not CJ..AT ALL

* for instance, in isolation, Dame scores 1.1o points/possession. That ranks him in the 89th percentile
* CJ is the opposite; he scores 0.83 ppp. That ranks him in 43rd percentile. Over 56% of the NBA is better than CJ at isolation

* in PnR- ball handler, Dame scores 1.14 ppp. That ranks in the 97th percentile
* in PnR- ball handler, CJ scores 0.91 ppp. That ranks him in the 69th percentile (Anfernee is as good as CJ with 0.91 ppp)

* in handoffs, Dame scores 1.19 ppp which ranks in the 90th percentile
* in handoffs, CJ scores 0.88 ppp which ranks in the 46th percentile (Bazemore scores 1.04 ppp)

sorry folks, but CJ simply sucks at one-on-one and iso. He's overrated significantly because he's a clever ball-handler but all that clever ball-handling doesn't yield good results. CJ's TS% is .536 when the league average is about .550. He is in the 86th percentile in spot-up possessions, his best performance in a play type. So that means his TS% on those unassisted plays, about 64% of his plays, is even worse that .536

his assisted FG rate shold be north of 60% rather than near 35%. He is not the guy that Portland should be running one-on-one offense thru as option 1b, and his goddamn dribbling needs to be cut down about 80%
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I probably shouldve made my posts green, but I thought it was really obvious. :)
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
Lol, I cannot believe you’re responding to that like Im unaware of the talent gap of CJ, and the others I named heh.
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your post was a trigger

what I was really responding to was 4+ years of hearing how great it is that CJ can create his own offense, and how much Portland would miss what he does if he was traded or just replaced at starting SG. Portland would miss CJ's spot-up shooting, but that can be replaced. Portland would not miss CJ's low-efficiency one-on-one routine. It stalls the offense way too often.

As a team, Portland averages 1.244 points/shot. Dame averages 1.456. Whiteside averages 1.475. Trent averages 1.22. Hood was averaging 1.337

meanwhile, CJ averages 1.127 and Melo averages 1.103; Simons averages 1.088 (over last 7 games CJ at 1.047)

when you look at those numbers and then look at FGA/game:

Damian Lillard 20.5
CJ McCollum 18.9
Carmelo Anthony 13.8
Hassan Whiteside 10.7
Rodney Hood 8.2
Anfernee Simons 8.2
Gary Trent 5.7

it sure looks like the Blazers are relying too much on players "creating their own shots". Dame does it with high efficiency; so does Whiteside. CJ-Melo-Simons, nope. The offense needs to change so shots are redistributed such that the more efficient scorers are taking more shots and the less efficient scorers are taking fewer
 
wizenheimer said:
your post was a trigger

what I was really responding to was 4+ years of hearing how great it is that CJ can create his own offense, and how much Portland would miss what he does if he was traded or just replaced at starting SG. Portland would miss CJ's spot-up shooting, but that can be replaced. Portland would not miss CJ's low-efficiency one-on-one routine. It stalls the offense way too often.

As a team, Portland averages 1.244 points/shot. Dame averages 1.456. Whiteside averages 1.475. Trent averages 1.22. Hood was averaging 1.337

meanwhile, CJ averages 1.127 and Melo averages 1.103; Simons averages 1.088 (over last 7 games CJ at 1.047)

when you look at those numbers and then look at FGA/game:

Damian Lillard 20.5
CJ McCollum 18.9
Carmelo Anthony 13.8
Hassan Whiteside 10.7
Rodney Hood 8.2
Anfernee Simons 8.2
Gary Trent 5.7

it sure looks like the Blazers are relying too much on players "creating their own shots". Dame does it with high efficiency; so does Whiteside. CJ-Melo-Simons, nope. The offense needs to change so shots are redistributed such that the more efficient scorers are taking more shots and the less efficient scorers are taking fewer
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Im not even sure Dame, Whiteside create their own shot, they run a lot of screens for Dame he uses those to get himself and others looks, they dont post whiteside a lot he gets his points from out backs or good passes. Obviously Dame can break down a defender. The issue IMO with CJ and Melo and I guess Simons is that they’re scoring is usually not even part of an offense its ISO, dribble and dribble and back down in the case of Melo, it very rarely results in good looks for them or anyone else.
 
wizenheimer said:
it's one thing to


two problems...one is that the offense doesn't go thru CJ with anything close to consistent. Much more often, the offense stops at CJ

the 2nd problem is the two guys the offense go thru actually have to be good at isolation. That's not CJ..AT ALL

* for instance, in isolation, Dame scores 1.1o points/possession. That ranks him in the 89th percentile
* CJ is the opposite; he scores 0.83 ppp. That ranks him in 43rd percentile. Over 56% of the NBA is better than CJ at isolation

* in PnR- ball handler, Dame scores 1.14 ppp. That ranks in the 97th percentile
* in PnR- ball handler, CJ scores 0.91 ppp. That ranks him in the 69th percentile (Anfernee is as good as CJ with 0.91 ppp)

* in handoffs, Dame scores 1.19 ppp which ranks in the 90th percentile
* in handoffs, CJ scores 0.88 ppp which ranks in the 46th percentile (Bazemore scores 1.04 ppp)

sorry folks, but CJ simply sucks at one-on-one and iso. He's overrated significantly because he's a clever ball-handler but all that clever ball-handling doesn't yield good results. CJ's TS% is .536 when the league average is about .550. He is in the 86th percentile in spot-up possessions, his best performance in a play type. So that means his TS% on those unassisted plays, about 64% of his plays, is even worse that .536

his assisted FG rate shold be north of 60% rather than near 35%. He is not the guy that Portland should be running one-on-one offense thru as option 1b, and his goddamn dribbling needs to be cut down about 80%
Click to expand...

Remember when we use to say Bad Moe in reference to Moe Williams when that version of him played. That’s cj
 
wizenheimer said:
what I was really responding to was 4+ years of hearing how great it is that CJ can create his own offense, and how much Portland would miss what he does if he was traded or just replaced at starting SG. Portland would miss CJ's spot-up shooting, but that can be replaced. Portland would not miss CJ's low-efficiency one-on-one routine. It stalls the offense way too often.
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The next time someone is as instrumental as CJ in helping Dame get us out of the 2nd round I will agree with this.
 
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Pinwheel1 said:
The next time someone is as instrumental as CJ in helping Dame get us out of the 2nd round I will agree with this.
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It's crazy how people forget what happened in Game 7 just 8 months ago. Or that Game 4. Dame was worn out after the OKC series and was hounded nonstop by like 2-3 Denver players every possession, and CJ came up big.

He's seemingly regressed this year but he doesn't deserve the vitriol that he gets here sometimes.
 
illmatic99 said:
It's crazy how people forget what happened in Game 7 just 8 months ago. Or that Game 4. Dame was worn out after the OKC series and was hounded nonstop by like 2-3 Denver players every possession, and CJ came up big.

He's seemingly regressed this year but he doesn't deserve the vitriol that he gets here sometimes.
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Not sure anyone forgets....but it might be possible some people feel that if he were a little more supportive in an efficient manner, Dame wouldn't have been so exhausted. CJ should be coming up big when his teammate is hounded by 2-3 defenders. The amount of open opportunities is huge.
 
TBpup said:
Not sure anyone forgets....but it might be possible some people feel that if he were a little more supportive in an efficient manner, Dame wouldn't have been so exhausted. CJ should be coming up big when his teammate is hounded by 2-3 defenders. The amount of open opportunities is huge.
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The series against Denver was validation of the Dame-CJ backcourt, fwiw.
 
The first time I saw Trent on the court, I was shocked at how quick he was to shoot. He gunned and gunned and gunned, and frankly I thought he'd either be out of the league in a year or turn into something pretty decent. Most likely out of the league. Per 36 minutes, he was putting up 16 shots a game as a rookie! Given that he shot 32%FG and .238 from three as a rookie, I couldn't believe the balls he had. Mo Harkless might disappear for quarters at a time, but when Trent was in you knew he was there. He was doing terribly, but he was there.

Turns out, though, that he was getting his reps in. Maybe it was his dad or his agent or Dame, but somebody told him to just do his thing so he'd know what's what when he got a real chance. He figured out how to find his space, and he sped up the release of his shot. He's still chucking, but he's a bit more judicious at 12 FGA's per 36 this year.

After indecisive guys like Aminu, Hark, Batum, Martel Webster and now Simons, it's kind of nice to have a young gunner. I'm 100% convinced that Gary Trent Jr will never, ever, EVER pass up an open shot. He won't get a ton of assists, but he won't turn it over either. It's either going off the basket or in the basket or it's getting kicked back out to the point guard. He knows his role and that's what he does.

When the playoffs roll around and everybody swarms Dame like they always do, I have no idea if Trent will make shots. But he absolutely will take them.
 
mook said:
The first time I saw Trent on the court, I was shocked at how quick he was to shoot. He gunned and gunned and gunned, and frankly I thought he'd either be out of the league in a year or turn into something pretty decent. Most likely out of the league. Per 36 minutes, he was putting up 16 shots a game as a rookie! Given that he shot 32%FG and .238 from three as a rookie, I couldn't believe the balls he had. Mo Harkless might disappear for quarters at a time, but when Trent was in you knew he was there. He was doing terribly, but he was there.

Turns out, though, that he was getting his reps in. Maybe it was his dad or his agent or Dame, but somebody told him to just do his thing so he'd know what's what when he got a real chance. He figured out how to find his space, and he sped up the release of his shot. He's still chucking, but he's a bit more judicious at 12 FGA's per 36 this year.

After indecisive guys like Aminu, Hark, Batum, Martel Webster and now Simons, it's kind of nice to have a young gunner. I'm 100% convinced that Gary Trent Jr will never, ever, EVER pass up an open shot. He won't get a ton of assists, but he won't turn it over either. It's either going off the basket or in the basket or it's getting kicked back out to the point guard. He knows his role and that's what he does.

When the playoffs roll around and everybody swarms Dame like they always do, I have no idea if Trent will make shots. But he absolutely will take them.
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All of this.
 
Scalma said:
not really. Seven games isn’t a sample size. There’s a much larger sample of this team not winning when Dame is off. You can bring up the other players, but they’re not getting paid $100M.
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Playoffs all 4 seasons, advancing in the playoffs twice, winning 50+ twice in the 4 seasons that the backcourt has been together?
 
illmatic99 said:
Playoffs all 4 seasons, advancing in the playoffs twice, winning 50+ twice in the 4 seasons that the backcourt has been together?
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If the Nuggets series was validation what was the series against the Warriors, who unlike Denver and OKC, sold out on Dame and dared CJ to beat them? Or how about the Pelicans?

Teams don’t typically employ that strategy in the regular season, so those wins aren’t validation.
 
Scalma said:
not really. Seven games isn’t a sample size. There’s a much larger sample of this team not winning when Dame is off. You can bring up the other players, but they’re not getting paid $100M.
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Fine, but until we find someone better at creating their own shot in the playoffs , CJ is who we have. And I say "playoffs" because as we all know the playoffs is a different animal. Completely different game because of the defense. Don't get me wrong I love what Trent is providing and my gut says Simons will get there too.
But as of right now, neither is as capable as CJ, despite the lack luster season he is having.
 
Pinwheel1 said:
Fine, but until we find someone better at creating their own shot in the playoffs , CJ is who we have. And I say "playoffs" because as we all know the playoffs is a different animal. Completely different game because of the defense. Don't get me wrong I love what Trent is providing and my gut says Simons will get there too.
But as of right now, neither is as capable as CJ, despite the lack luster season he is having.
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My problem with CJ is his production doesn’t match his contract. A guy making that much money should be able to command some sort of respect from other teams, but I have yet to see anyone throw a double at him, even in games Lillard has missed. We’re paying Lou Williams Anthony Davis money.
 
Scalma said:
My problem with CJ is his production doesn’t match his contract. A guy making that much money should be able to command some sort of respect from other teams, but I have yet to see anyone throw a double at him, even in games Lillard has missed. We’re paying Lou Williams Anthony Davis money.
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Yes that is the problem that most fans have. Once a players "gets paid" the "hate" for that player tends to increase dramatically. Few live up to the expectations.
 
CJ has put up 25-4-4, while shooting 45% from the field, and 40% from 3, over 20 games over the last two playoffs.

As a second/third banana, that is great production.

Dame's astronomical rise is not reproducible, and I feel it has clouded how consistent CJ is.
 
illmatic99 said:
It's crazy how people forget what happened in Game 7 just 8 months ago. Or that Game 4. Dame was worn out after the OKC series and was hounded nonstop by like 2-3 Denver players every possession, and CJ came up big.

He's seemingly regressed this year but he doesn't deserve the vitriol that he gets here sometimes.
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The things last year there wasn't has many offense minded player around Dame. You had CJ and you had Nurk and sometimes Aminu and Harkless woul have good games but that was here and there. You had Curry off the bench. But this year there double team Dame other players will make them pay Trent Ariza Whiteside Melo and CJ is starting starting to make teams pay for doubling Dame. Yes CJ still does his iso but that has cut down some he starting do some catch and shoot and he also doing a extra pass for better shot so it not all bad for CJ. The problem I got with CJ is when he goes iso he gets tunnel finish and looking to score. Instead set other players up for better shot. Plus right now his defense is the weak link in there with any lineup.Even Dame has step his defense lately. Plus CJ doesn't have to score 20 some points to win games anymore.
 
Chris Paul - 38 mil
Westbrook - 38 mil
John Wall - 38 mil
Blake Griffin - 34 mil
Kemba - 34 mil
Lowry - 33 mil
Hayward - 33 mil
Conley - 33 mil
Kyrie - 32 mil
Harris - 31 mil
Middleton - 31 mil
Millsap - 31 mil
Love - 29 mil
Vucevic - 28 mil
Horford - 28 mil
Derozan 27.7 mil

CJ 27.6 mil
 
illmatic99 said:
Chris Paul - 38 mil
Westbrook - 38 mil
John Wall - 38 mil
Blake Griffin - 34 mil
Lowry - 33 mil
Hayward - 33 mil
Conley - 33 mil
Kyrie - 32 mil
Harris - 31 mil
Middleton - 31 mil
Millsap - 31 mil
Love - 29 mil
Vucevic - 28 mil
Horford - 28 mil
Derozan 27.7 mil

CJ 27.6 mil
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And how many of those guys have lived up to expectations, in the playoffs.
 
HailBlazers said:
And how many of those guys have lived up to expectations, in the playoffs.
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Like half? CJ's contract is not nearly as egregious as people make it out to be. He's in the Tobias Harris/D'Angelo Russell/Middleton/Murray level of overpaid, yet people talk like he has some toxic contract. This is the new reality in the NBA.

Of the contracts already signed, CJ will be the 26th highest paid player in the NBA. Once the summer hits, he's gonna move down that list to probably the 30th range. He's not the ~ 30th best player in the league this season, but he was last year and has produced decently well in the playoffs as a secondary threat.
 
Does a Gary Trent thread have to become a CJ thread?

I guess if we are going down that road, I'm all aboard us trading CJ for Tobias Harris over the summer and letting Trent or Hood start next year. With Dame, Harris, Melo, Nurk, Hood, Collins and Trent, we shouldn't have a problem creating shots.

Realistically, if Hood is recovered he'd be starting SG.
 
mook said:
Does a Gary Trent thread have to become a CJ thread?

I guess if we are going down that road, I'm all aboard us trading CJ for Tobias Harris over the summer and letting Trent or Hood start next year. With Dame, Harris, Melo, Nurk, Hood, Collins and Trent, we shouldn't have a problem creating shots.

Realistically, if Hood is recovered he'd be starting SG.
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Think Philly would do that too.
 
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