Politics Ukraine / Russia (1 Viewer)

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jonnyboy said:
Russia isn’t trying to take over the entirety Ukraine, there is really nothing to suggest that nor is it strategically significant to do so. It’s a battle for specific areas that have been contested for hundreds of years where borders and influences have changed multiple times. This doesn’t give Russia a pass for their aggression, but you have to at least argue the facts at hand and not hyperbolic theories.
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You're either being naive or in denial. What areas were hundreds of years ago does not matter...this is 2023.
 
jonnyboy said:
Sorry, Nazis in Ukraine are well known and well documented. The Azov battalion is only the most prominent one, but there are multiple factions from government insiders and influencers, paramilitary groups, all the way down to hoards of skinhead soccer hooligans. Nazis are more than a small problem there.
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So, Ukraine is just like Wyoming?

barfo
 
UKRAINEFAN said:
I'm not gonna quibble with you. I think you have an ideological bent that governs your way of thinking about russia's war against Ukraine. I doubt that you care about Ukraine or her people. I refer you again to Prigozhin, leader of russia's Wagner group who reveals he doesn't think there are nazis in Ukraine and that that was just an excuse for colonial exploitation.
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Prighozin was Putin’s attack dog only weeks ago. I’m unlikely to heed his advice or suggestions now just because there was some internal pissing match between him and his dictator buddy. It doesn’t absolve him of anything or make him suddenly reliable. It’s like liberals lining up to fellate any Republican who defects from Trump. It makes no sense. They are still corrupt assholes. So is Prighozin.
As far as my capacity for caring about Ukrainians goes, I care to the extent where I’d like to not see any more dead. I think it’s unfortunate the Ukrainian government’s ego has been artificially inflated to the extent where they thought it’d be wise to take on a superpower with other countries money and supplies. If they would have not been pumped up by the United States they would have been forced to make a deal, less people would be dead and Americans with no healthcare wouldn’t be funding a proxy war 10,000 miles away while our country literally crumbles around us.
 
yankeesince59 said:
You're either being naive or in denial. What areas were hundreds of years ago does not matter...this is 2023.
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It very much matters. The areas NATO has encroached upon are the lands Russia has been invaded through multiple times going back to at least Napoleon. It is the literal sole cause and effect of this current conflict. You saying it doesn’t matter proves a fundamental lack of understanding and it’s why I don’t respond to many of your posts on the subject.
 
There was never really a chance for Ukraine to win unless NATO got directly involved (which might escalate to nuclear). As they say, war either ends in a negotiation settlement or with the total destruction of one side. So why not skip the fighting? The US didn't want to skip the fighting, they wanted to weaken Russia using the blood of Ukranians as pawns. It's also nice for the military industrial complex. Lots of munitions and equipment to replace now.

People just won't listen or let it sink in that Ukraine was attacking civilians in the Donbas region, and that most of the people there want to join with Russia. So why is anyone morally outraged that Russia has set up a protective line around that region?

The response I always here is "But Russia bad, Ukraine good". It's like half our population are NPCs.
 
jonnyboy said:
It very much matters. The areas NATO has encroached upon
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NATO hasn't encroached upon any areas. Literally none.

Whereas Russia has. So your framing of the situation is, shall we say, bass-ackwards.

barfo
 
jonnyboy said:
It very much matters. The areas NATO has encroached upon are the lands Russia has been invaded through multiple times going back to at least Napoleon. It is the literal sole cause and effect of this current conflict. You saying it doesn’t matter proves a fundamental lack of understanding and it’s why I don’t respond to many of your posts on the subject.
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So using your logic, England would be also justified by trying to invade America to take back land it owned back in the 1700s?...oh wait, that already happened, it was called the War of 1812.

"Napoleon"?... once again, as I pointed out earlier "In 1954 Nikita Khrushchev gave Crimea as a "gift" to the republic of Ukraine ...Putin decided that he wanted Crimea back, and more."

Nearly every statement/link, etc., you've provided has either been debunked or shown to be inaccurate...but yeah, according to you, I'm the one who "lacks understanding"?
 
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beast crnjo said:
There was never really a chance for Ukraine to win unless NATO got directly involved (which might escalate to nuclear). As they say, war either ends in a negotiation settlement or with the total destruction of one side. So why not skip the fighting? The US didn't want to skip the fighting, they wanted to weaken Russia using the blood of Ukranians as pawns. It's also nice for the military industrial complex. Lots of munitions and equipment to replace now.

People just won't listen or let it sink in that Ukraine was attacking civilians in the Donbas region, and that most of the people there want to join with Russia. So why is anyone morally outraged that Russia has set up a protective line around that region?

The response I always here is "But Russia bad, Ukraine good". It's like half our population are NPCs.
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NATO was formed many years ago for this very reason and because of Russi'a aggression NATO has grown even stronger since this started.

...and who said the people of Donbas want to join Russia?...How was that decided, by a legit vote?...or because Russia said so?

"When the responses are weighted by the estimated total population on either side of the line of control in the Donbas before the war (1.7 million in the Kyiv-controlled zone and 2.1 million in the separatist republics), more people preferred to remain in Ukraine (42 percent) than be annexed to Russia (31 percent)."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...raine-donbas-donetsk-luhansk-public-opinion/#



 
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This piece from CNN has a video from drone itself hitting the russian ship. Some reports of a second boat hit and also report of refinery being hit by drones in Crimea.

 
jonnyboy said:
Prighozin was Putin’s attack dog only weeks ago. I’m unlikely to heed his advice or suggestions now just because there was some internal pissing match between him and his dictator buddy. It doesn’t absolve him of anything or make him suddenly reliable. It’s like liberals lining up to fellate any Republican who defects from Trump. It makes no sense. They are still corrupt assholes. So is Prighozin.
As far as my capacity for caring about Ukrainians goes, I care to the extent where I’d like to not see any more dead. I think it’s unfortunate the Ukrainian government’s ego has been artificially inflated to the extent where they thought it’d be wise to take on a superpower with other countries money and supplies. If they would have not been pumped up by the United States they would have been forced to make a deal, less people would be dead and Americans with no healthcare wouldn’t be funding a proxy war 10,000 miles away while our country literally crumbles around us.
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I'm not going to respond to this. I am here to try to keep reminding people what is happening in Ukraine. If I wanted to quibble politics I would be on a different thread.
 
jonnyboy said:
Russia isn’t trying to take over the entirety Ukraine, there is really nothing to suggest that nor is it strategically significant to do so. It’s a battle for specific areas that have been contested for hundreds of years where borders and influences have changed multiple times. This doesn’t give Russia a pass for their aggression, but you have to at least argue the facts at hand and not hyperbolic theories.
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You might want to read up on the Russian Kyiv convoy. I took this as a significant suggestion that they were attempting to overthrow Ukraine... but maybe I'm just being dramatic...

Seriously, Russia's goal here is to regain all of the territory and populations that were controlled by the USSR. If they can't do that they will cease to be a world power within 20 years.

They think they need to control the passes that Ukraine controls, and they'll need control of the land, as well as Ukraine's population (since Russia doesn't have enough young people) in order to maintain control of those passes long term.
 
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yankeesince59 said:
NATO was formed many years ago for this very reason and because of Russi'a aggression NATO has grown even stronger since this started.

...and who said the people of Donbas want to join Russia?...How was that decided, by a legit vote?...or because Russia said so?

"When the responses are weighted by the estimated total population on either side of the line of control in the Donbas before the war (1.7 million in the Kyiv-controlled zone and 2.1 million in the separatist republics), more people preferred to remain in Ukraine (42 percent) than be annexed to Russia (31 percent)."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...raine-donbas-donetsk-luhansk-public-opinion/#
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Look at the way the people of Ukraine voted for president by region. It's very polarized, in the East, they favored the president Yanukovych, who was that was ousted in the 2014 Maidan coup. Do you really believe their anger was just "Russian propaganda"?
upload_2023-8-4_9-36-46.png

upload_2023-8-4_9-31-16.png
 
beast crnjo said:
Look at the way the people of Ukraine voted for president by region. It's very polarized, in the East, they favored the president Yanukovych, who was that was ousted in the 2014 Maidan coup. Do you really believe their anger was just "Russian propaganda"?
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lol...Wikipedia?

...that map/chart is from 2010. And now you're talking about politics, not the war. But yeah, if some Russian "elections" are bogus why should anyone believe that they're not all bogus?

Did you even read the part that says;

"The poll did not claim to have scientific precision, but was carried out to get a basis from which to judge the outcome of the referendum, given that independent
observers were not present to monitor it."

Besides, if you look at the US, we're pretty polarized ourselves....want a map?
 
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yankeesince59 said:
...that map/chart is from 2010. And now you're talking about politics, not the war.

Besides, if you look at the US, we're pretty polarized ourselves....want a map?
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That was to show you what a large percentage of the population of that region voted for the president that was ousted by the coup, which is what sparked the civil war. That is why I asked you if you are so certain that resentment is just "russian propaganda".

And yes, I know that the US is polorized. How do you think the people in Portland would feel if a military coup ousted Biden and put Trump in power?
 
beast crnjo said:
That was to show you what a large percentage of the population of that region voted for the president that was ousted by the coup, which is what sparked the civil war. That is why I asked you if you are so certain that resentment is just "russian propaganda".

And yes, I know that the US is polorized. How do you think the people in Portland would feel if a military coup ousted Biden and put Trump in power?
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Are you even aware that Wikipedia is user generated and can be easily edited?...anytime you use Wikipedia you need to verify it with other sources/outlets.


Screenshot 2023-08-04 at 1.45.30 PM.png
 
beast crnjo said:
Look at the way the people of Ukraine voted for president by region. It's very polarized, in the East, they favored the president Yanukovych, who was that was ousted in the 2014 Maidan coup. Do you really believe their anger was just "Russian propaganda"?
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If some fraction of, say, Vermont residents thought that Vermont should be independent from the US, would that justify Canada invading and annexing Vermont?

barfo
 
barfo said:
If some fraction of, say, Vermont residents thought that Vermont should be independent from the US, would that justify Canada invading and annexing Vermont?

barfo
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I'm surprised Big Maple Syrup hasn't made this happen already.
 
beast crnjo said:
That was to show you what a large percentage of the population of that region voted for the president that was ousted by the coup, which is what sparked the civil war. That is why I asked you if you are so certain that resentment is just "russian propaganda".

And yes, I know that the US is polorized. How do you think the people in Portland would feel if a military coup ousted Biden and put Trump in power?
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and everyone knows how fair Russian elections are...the main opposition usually gets thrown out of a window or poisoned in prison but yeah, let's check Putin's propoganda media machine and call it democratic process eh? Invading a sovereign nation has nothing to do with civil war or American partisan squabbling. NATO proves your theory completely wrong and facing Putin's bullshit invasion, has only become stronger and larger...I hope Ukraine wipes Putin off the map...why wouldn't you? Where do you vote? I know Serbia was very pro Russian...are you Serbian?
 
beast crnjo said:
How do you think the people in Portland would feel if a military coup ousted Biden and put Trump in power?
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There was no military coup in Ukraine, so your analogy is fatally flawed.

Instead, how about:

How do you think the people in Portland would feel if nationwide protests led to Biden fleeing to Canada?

I think they'd feel pretty damn surprised!

barfo
 
beast crnjo said:
Antifa should really just call themselves "Fa'
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There is no "Antfa". It is literally just an ideology the some people ascribe to. Some people can claim they are antifa, and act however they want, but if they aren't supporting the ideals of opposing fascism then they aren't acting as antifa.

Anybody that committing acts of (or in support of) fascism is not antifa, by definition. Very simple.
 
barfo said:
If some fraction of, say, Vermont residents thought that Vermont should be independent from the US, would that justify Canada invading and annexing Vermont?

barfo
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If the United States was bombing Vermonters there might be an argument there.
 
UKRAINEFAN said:
Again he is taking an argument directly from Putin's propaganda playbook.
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While this type of attack is directly from the establishment media propaganda playbook. “You love Putin” is such a tired trope.
 
beast crnjo said:
Look at the way the people of Ukraine voted for president by region. It's very polarized, in the East, they favored the president Yanukovych, who was that was ousted in the 2014 Maidan coup. Do you really believe their anger was just "Russian propaganda"?
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So, does that mean that any USA states that voted for Trump should be allowed to secede? BTW, those figures would be a lot different today. Almost all Ukrainians absolutely hate russia and would not think of voting for a pro-russian candidate. Also there was a nationwide election after what you call a "coup" (again parroting Putin) and the pro-russian candidate lost badly.
 
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