Politics Ukraine / Russia (3 Viewers)

[jonnyboy]

If you can't see the irony (and outright hypocrisy) in Beast's statement (which I highlighted) then I don't know what to tell you. It's all of a piece. He accuses us of falling for "lies" while supporting one of the biggest (and most damaging) lies in American history. Let's be real, "lies" depend on which side you take. The only difference between you, me and Beast is the side we choose to take. And if you can't see the danger Trump and his minions present to America, then you deserve the America you get. I'm old enough that it won't much matter to me. But your generation and those that follow are going to be so very much more fucked than you think you are today....

The only problem is your sensational cries of “biggest and most damaging lie in American history!!!” have produced zero tangible fruit while there are millions of corpses stacked up in Ukraine and the Middle East.
Sorry for not buying your spooky Trump fiction. Your tax dollars send young men to die and drop bombs on elementary schools and hospitals in the desert. The only difference between you and I is one of us accepts it for what it is and the other wreaths like an injured snake trying to justify it.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

I am curious, where are you getting your information? Even the sources that were lying, and spewing propaganda, even know admit Ukraine is running out of ammo, soldiers, and is now simply on the defensive. Ukraine will be utterly defeated.

I am so sick of the fantasy land they have people under. This isn't personal against you, you're a victim of their propaganda. They brainwashed the public for 2 years that Ukraine was winning, just to keep the dollars flowing...

Being on the defensive is not always bad. Ukraine is actually winning in a war of attrition. russia is making a strategic mistake by staying on the offensive against heavily defended positions and as a result lose three times as many soldiers and about 7 times as much equipment as Ukraine every week. They do this because their corrupt president wants to be able to say that they took some small village to help boost his election numbers.
Ukraine is starting a new mobilization that will provide plenty of troops and they plan to actually give them sufficient training before they send them into battle, unlike the russians.
As for ammo, are they really as low as they say? How did Ukraine destroy 170 russian artillery systems in a recent three day period? It's not easy to destroy artillery with drones.
Ukraine is still winning the battle of wills, The people defending their country against terroristic invaders will always have the advantage. And now that russia has used up most of their available prison population, normal russians are now starting to die, and even though russians leave many on the battlefield, eventually their bodies get back to russia. The protest movement by mobilized wives and mothers is slowly growing and Putin is afraid to suppress them. People queue in very long lines to sign documents so the antiwar candidate can run for president. There have been hundreds of attacks on draft offices and railway relay stations within russia.
Third. Logistics. russia wastes their drones and missiles attacking civilian targets, hoping to demoralize the population but it only makes them angrier and more determined to keep fighting. Meanwhile Ukraine is always attacking supply depots, ammo dumps, anti-air units and now reaching into russia for defense plants and oil refineries. They are developing and now manufacturing their own large drones and rockets, Over the long run this will lead to victory
I get my information from about fifty different sources, including russian sources on Telegram. I watch hundred of videos every week of russian equipment graveyards. I follow a guy who verifies every russian and Ukrainian equipment loss with photos.
Let's also remind that since the first couple weeks of the war, russia has given up huge amounts of territory that they once took: Kyiv, Kharkiv and Kherson regions. Ukraine lost only a couple square kilometers around Bakmut in the same time period. Ukraine, without a navy, has destroyed a good portion of russia's famed Black Sea Fleet and driven the russian navy to hide in the eastern part of the Sea.
I got a question for you. Why are you rooting for the russians? What is your background?

 

[jonnyboy]

If you can't see the irony (and outright hypocrisy) in Beast's statement (which I highlighted) then I don't know what to tell you. It's all of a piece. He accuses us of falling for "lies" while supporting one of the biggest (and most damaging) lies in American history. Let's be real, "lies" depend on which side you take. The only difference between you, me and Beast is the side we choose to take. And if you can't see the danger Trump and his minions present to America, then you deserve the America you get. I'm old enough that it won't much matter to me. But your generation and those that follow are going to be so very much more fucked than you think you are today....

Trump involved us in zero new conflicts while the aviator-sporting baked potato that currently haunts the white house has gotten us into 3 and counting. Based on body count, the current administration is definitely “better” lol. Based on scary sounding hypotheticals that never manifest but nonetheless make deranged liberals shit down their leg, yeah i guess Trump is “worse”.

 

[beast blazer]

Dude, we're talking about the war in the Ukraine, NOT Trump's ignorant base. Though you did describe them (and him) to a tee. As you just said, "Anyone can be duped by lies if they are getting bad information, but once you get lied to over and over, you should be able to say "Hey, wait a minute..." But instead they go along with a narrative shift, perhaps to absolve themselves without having to face the reality that they were duped." Just because they (and you apparently) have bought into clearly false narratives doesn't mean the rest of us have.

Your side has eagerly bought into one of the most egregious, bold faced lies ever foisted upon the American people, and now you prance around as an arbiter of truth. My big mistake is responding to such a divorce from reality......

You can't help but bring Trump into this? This is a sign of how deluded you are. You have TDS, Trump Derangement Syndrome. You see everything as this conflict against Trump, and wrap your opinions around every issue on that basis.

 

[jonnyboy]

You can't help but bring Trump into this? This is a sign of how deluded you are. You have TDS, Trump Derangement Syndrome. You see everything as this conflict against Trump, and wrap your opinions around every issue on that basis.

As long as the establishment supporters are entertained throwing windmill punches at their orange carrot on a stick they will let most other things slide like war, genocide, money laundering, the housing market being monopolized by the same companies profiting off the wars they cheerlead, no future for the next generations besides financial indentured servitude, crippling inflation, etc.
All those things will work themselves out if they just land one punch.

 

[crandc]

It's not a matter of what one "believes". It's a matter of what is factual.

 

[UncleCliffy'sDaddy]

As long as the establishment supporters are entertained throwing windmill punches at their orange carrot on a stick they will let most other things slide like war, genocide, money laundering, the housing market being monopolized by the same companies profiting off the wars they cheerlead, no future for the next generations besides financial indentured servitude, crippling inflation, etc.
All those things will work themselves out if they just land one punch.

Ah....finally the generational victim card gets played. All the shit that's been going on since America was founded and now it's all the Boomer's (and Democrats) faults. I can't help but think that that resentment is what's fueling your (and Beast's) anger and cynicism. You don't think we had to deal with all of that crap??? I'm not letting anything slide. It was the Donald Trumps and his ilk of this world that got us where we are today. And why I am so adamant he (and those like him) has to be stopped. If you think things are actually going to improve under a conservative regime, you should probably lay off the Speed Goat......

 

[UncleCliffy'sDaddy]

You can't help but bring Trump into this? This is a sign of how deluded you are. You have TDS, Trump Derangement Syndrome. You see everything as this conflict against Trump, and wrap your opinions around every issue on that basis.

I suppose I could point out (based on your almost rabid take) that's you have UDS.....Ukraine Derangement Syndrome. See how that works?

 

[barfo]

I don't know what to tell you buddy. You haven't been keeping up. Why are leaders of NATO nations in Europe now talking about the threat of having to take on Russia themselves, and how they are not prepared to do so, if Ukraine is winning?

Wait a minute, I thought your position was that Russia was entirely peace-loving and was merely setting free territories that desperately wanted to join Russia?

I guess the rest of Europe is also comprised of territories that want to join Russia.

barfo

 

[beast blazer]

This is like fucking someone's wife, and they come after you and try to kill you, and only focusing on how they are trying to kill you. You can argue murder isn't justified, people should be able to fuck whoever they want. Both of those things are true, but you can also refrain from or stop fucking their wife.

Now I'm going to hire some teenage dweebs to protect me, and they're going to die. But that's ok, I'll keep hiring more, I have a right to defend myself.

This is like what's going on in Ukraine. Only this sort of thing can also escalate to nuclear war, just like the shit we're doing in the Middle East.

 

[barfo]

This is like fucking someone's wife, and they come after you and try to kill you, and only focusing on how they are trying to kill you. You can argue murder isn't justified, people should be able to fuck whoever they want. Both of those things are true, but you can also refrain from or stop fucking their wife.

Now I'm going to hire some teenage dweebs to protect me, and they're going to die. But that's ok, I'll keep hiring more, I have a right to defend myself.

This is like what's going on in Ukraine. Only this sort of thing can also escalate to nuclear war, just like the shit we're doing in the Middle East.

Or maybe it's like one country invaded another, and there is a war going on because of that.

barfo

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Or maybe it's like one country invaded another, and there is a war going on because of that.

barfo

Maybe it's like a slug that eats a flower and the slug poop grows more flowers.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

Being on the defensive is not always bad. Ukraine is actually winning in a war of attrition. russia is making a strategic mistake by staying on the offensive against heavily defended positions and as a result lose three times as many soldiers and about 7 times as much equipment as Ukraine every week. They do this because their corrupt president wants to be able to say that they took some small village to help boost his election numbers.
Ukraine is starting a new mobilization that will provide plenty of troops and they plan to actually give them sufficient training before they send them into battle, unlike the russians.
As for ammo, are they really as low as they say? How did Ukraine destroy 170 russian artillery systems in a recent three day period? It's not easy to destroy artillery with drones.
Ukraine is still winning the battle of wills, The people defending their country against terroristic invaders will always have the advantage. And now that russia has used up most of their available prison population, normal russians are now starting to die, and even though russians leave many on the battlefield, eventually their bodies get back to russia. The protest movement by mobilized wives and mothers is slowly growing and Putin is afraid to suppress them. People queue in very long lines to sign documents so the antiwar candidate can run for president. There have been hundreds of attacks on draft offices and railway relay stations within russia.
Third. Logistics. russia wastes their drones and missiles attacking civilian targets, hoping to demoralize the population but it only makes them angrier and more determined to keep fighting. Meanwhile Ukraine is always attacking supply depots, ammo dumps, anti-air units and now reaching into russia for defense plants and oil refineries. They are developing and now manufacturing their own large drones and rockets, Over the long run this will lead to victory
I get my information from about fifty different sources, including russian sources on Telegram. I watch hundred of videos every week of russian equipment graveyards. I follow a guy who verifies every russian and Ukrainian equipment loss with photos.
Let's also remind that since the first couple weeks of the war, russia has given up huge amounts of territory that they once took: Kyiv, Kharkiv and Kherson regions. Ukraine lost only a couple square kilometers around Bakmut in the same time period. Ukraine, without a navy, has destroyed a good portion of russia's famed Black Sea Fleet and driven the russian navy to hide in the eastern part of the Sea.
I got a question for you. Why are you rooting for the russians? What is your background?

Just wanted to correct one number. I said that Ukraine was destroying russian equipment at a 7 to 1 ratio. I think that was just for a week's action near Avdiivka. Overall, the numbers since russia started their latest offensive are between 3 and 4 to 1.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Just wanted to correct one number. I said that Ukraine was destroying russian equipment at a 7 to 1 ratio. I think that was just for a week's action near Avdiivka. Overall, the numbers since russia started there latest offensive are between 3 and 4 to 1.

Yep, that's all I've heard. Ukraine is taking out far more Russian military than Russia is taking out of Ukrainian military.

But yeah, Russia is killing a LOT more innocent civilians...

 

[ehizzy3]

Being on the defensive is not always bad. Ukraine is actually winning in a war of attrition. russia is making a strategic mistake by staying on the offensive against heavily defended positions and as a result lose three times as many soldiers and about 7 times as much equipment as Ukraine every week. They do this because their corrupt president wants to be able to say that they took some small village to help boost his election numbers.
Ukraine is starting a new mobilization that will provide plenty of troops and they plan to actually give them sufficient training before they send them into battle, unlike the russians.
As for ammo, are they really as low as they say? How did Ukraine destroy 170 russian artillery systems in a recent three day period? It's not easy to destroy artillery with drones.
Ukraine is still winning the battle of wills, The people defending their country against terroristic invaders will always have the advantage. And now that russia has used up most of their available prison population, normal russians are now starting to die, and even though russians leave many on the battlefield, eventually their bodies get back to russia. The protest movement by mobilized wives and mothers is slowly growing and Putin is afraid to suppress them. People queue in very long lines to sign documents so the antiwar candidate can run for president. There have been hundreds of attacks on draft offices and railway relay stations within russia.
Third. Logistics. russia wastes their drones and missiles attacking civilian targets, hoping to demoralize the population but it only makes them angrier and more determined to keep fighting. Meanwhile Ukraine is always attacking supply depots, ammo dumps, anti-air units and now reaching into russia for defense plants and oil refineries. They are developing and now manufacturing their own large drones and rockets, Over the long run this will lead to victory
I get my information from about fifty different sources, including russian sources on Telegram. I watch hundred of videos every week of russian equipment graveyards. I follow a guy who verifies every russian and Ukrainian equipment loss with photos.
Let's also remind that since the first couple weeks of the war, russia has given up huge amounts of territory that they once took: Kyiv, Kharkiv and Kherson regions. Ukraine lost only a couple square kilometers around Bakmut in the same time period. Ukraine, without a navy, has destroyed a good portion of russia's famed Black Sea Fleet and driven the russian navy to hide in the eastern part of the Sea.
I got a question for you. Why are you rooting for the russians? What is your background?

why am I not surprised that you didn’t get a reply

 

[Phatguysrule]

This is like fucking someone's wife, and they come after you and try to kill you, and only focusing on how they are trying to kill you. You can argue murder isn't justified, people should be able to fuck whoever they want. Both of those things are true, but you can also refrain from or stop fucking their wife.

Now I'm going to hire some teenage dweebs to protect me, and they're going to die. But that's ok, I'll keep hiring more, I have a right to defend myself.

This is like what's going on in Ukraine. Only this sort of thing can also escalate to nuclear war, just like the shit we're doing in the Middle East.

What is Russia's wife in this hypothetical?

Seems to me more like, somebody is trying to steal your wife and children and kill you and/or them in the process if necessary. And you're trying to make them stop rather than letting them enslave your family.

And you're suggesting the people standing next to this exchange should tell you to just bend over and take it for your own good. And besides, the attackers are big and scary and could hurt everyone if we don't give them everything they want.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

 

[SlyPokerDog]

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

Here is a guy celebrating it.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Those are fake ships. Real ships aren't all black like that.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

Honest question hoping for honest knowledgeable answers.
Why did Russia invade Ukraine? What was their reasoning/justification for it? Seems it’s skipped over for the most part when I read how bad Russia is for invading. But they had to have some sort of motivation/justification in their/Putins mind?

I don’t trust left or right answers. No hard left or hard right links please. Looking for an unbiased, middle ground, realistic answer. Doesn’t mean the answer will actually justify the invasion, but what was there reasoning for starting a war?

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Honest question hoping for honest knowledgeable answers.
Why did Russia invade Ukraine? What was their reasoning/justification for it? Seems it’s skipped over for the most part when I read how bad Russia is for invading. But they had to have some sort of motivation/justification in their/Putins mind?

I don’t trust left or right answers. No hard left or hard right links please. Looking for an unbiased, middle ground, realistic answer. Doesn’t mean the answer will actually justify the invasion, but what was there reasoning for starting a war?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russi...peration was,perpetrated by the Kyiv regime."

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Honest question hoping for honest knowledgeable answers.
Why did Russia invade Ukraine? What was their reasoning/justification for it? Seems it’s skipped over for the most part when I read how bad Russia is for invading. But they had to have some sort of motivation/justification in their/Putins mind?

I don’t trust left or right answers. No hard left or hard right links please. Looking for an unbiased, middle ground, realistic answer. Doesn’t mean the answer will actually justify the invasion, but what was there reasoning for starting a war?

My (likely ignorant and oversimplified) understanding has always been that they used the largely ethnically-Russian population of eastern Ukraine (allegedly) wanting to be part of Russia rather than be part of Ukraine as their justification for the invasion, which was actually primarily motivated by Ukraine's association with the EU and NATO--organizations Russia simply doesn't want on their border (for whatever reason).

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

My (likely ignorant and oversimplified) understanding has always been that they used the largely ethnically-Russian population of eastern Ukraine (allegedly) wanting to be part of Russia rather than be part of Ukraine as their justification for the invasion, which was actually primarily motivated by Ukraine's association with the EU and NATO--organizations Russia simply doesn't want on their border (for whatever reason).

That's right, I remember hearing/reading some of that.

So my question is then, was there any type of relocation discussions between the two? Was Ukraine not willing to let them go if Russia agreed to pay for their relocation to within their borders? Were those people in that area willing to relocate to inside Russian borders? Did Russia exhaust these types of possibilities prior to invading?

Sure seems like if this was the primary motivating factor of the invasion, it could have easily have been negotiated and war avoided? Heck, USA could have funded the whole relocation for far less than what we have put into the war so far.

Also, I do recall hearing something about Russia needing/wanting the port access?

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine#:~:text=Putin said the operation was,perpetrated by the Kyiv regime."

From the Link:

Putin's invasion announcement
Main article: On conducting a special military operation
On 21 February, Putin announced Russian diplomatic recognition of the Russian-controlled territories of Ukraine as independent states: the Donetsk People's Republic and Luhansk People's Republic. The following day, Russia announced that it was sending troops into these territories as "peacekeepers",[56] and the Federation Council of Russia authorised the use of military force abroad.[57]

Putin's address to the nation on 24 February 2022. Minutes after Putin's announcement, the invasion began.
Before 5 a.m. Kyiv time on February 24, Putin in another speech announced, a "special military operation", which "effectively declar[ed] war on Ukraine."[58][59] Putin said the operation was to "protect the people" of the Russian-controlled breakaway republics. He falsely claimed that they had "been facing humiliation and genocide perpetrated by the Kyiv regime."[60] Putin also falsely claimed that Ukrainian government officials were neo-Nazis under Western control, that Ukraine was developing nuclear weapons, and that NATO was building up military infrastructure in Ukraine to threaten Russia.[61] He said Russia sought the "demilitarisation and denazification" of Ukraine, and espoused views challenging Ukraine's right to exist.[62][63] Putin said he had no plans to occupy Ukraine and supported the right of the Ukrainian people to self-determination.[61] Russian missiles struck targets throughout Ukraine,[64] and Russian troops invaded from the north, east, and south.[65] Russia did not officially declare war.[66] Reports of an alleged leak of Russian Federal Security Service (FSB) documents by US intelligence sources said that the FSB had not been aware of Putin's plan to invade Ukraine.[67]


The section I bolded stands out to me. If this were true, Id have to think the UN would have bene heavily investigating such genocide allegations, much like they do in every other accusation of such atrocities?

Also the next couple of sentences about developing nuclear weapons(not bolded)... if that were true, in a war scenario, wouldn't the Russia want to take those operations out? I haven't heard a word of Russia targeting potential Nuclear weapons facilities? But I don't keep up on this 100% of the time. Sure seems skeptical to me.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

That's right, I remember hearing/reading some of that.

So my question is then, was there any type of relocation discussions between the two? Was Ukraine not willing to let them go if Russia agreed to pay for their relocation to within their borders? Were those people in that area willing to relocate to inside Russian borders? Did Russia exhaust these types of possibilities prior to invading?

Sure seems like if this was the primary motivating factor of the invasion, it could have easily have been negotiated and war avoided? Heck, USA could have funded the whole relocation for far less than what we have put into the war so far.

I'm quite certain that if this were actually the real issue, and if relocation were even broached, the response would be, "We don't want to move from where we are to another location inside Russia; we want 'where we are' to be a location inside Russia."

However, like I said, I think that the "breakaway republics" (as they're apparently known) were really just a convenient excuse.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

I'm quite certain that if this were actually the real issue, and if relocation were even broached, the response would be, "We don't want to move from where we are to another location inside Russia; we want 'where we are' to be a location inside Russia."

However, like I said, I think that the "breakaway republics" (as they're apparently known) were really just a convenient excuse.

I agree, but I would add then that IF that were the case, I would think Ukraine would then at least try to appease those folks and attempt to negotiate new borders accordingly? I know that's an overly simplistic response to a very complicated potential resolution, but I question whether it was even an exhausted option attempt?

Wouldn't this be about the same as the USA declaring war on Texas, for attempting to leave the states? I dont see us doing that, and I don't think Ukraine would do that. We/they might not help in the process, but to openly deny it with violence doesn't seem like it would have part of the equation.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Wouldn't this be about the same as the USA declaring war on Texas, for attempting to leave the states?

No--it would be more like the US declaring war on Canada if residents of British Columbia said they wanted to be part of the US. Of course, the significant difference is that Ukraine was a part of Russia 33 years ago, whereas no part of Canada has ever been part of the US. I'd imagine there's a lot more complexity in the way of ethnicity and national identity than either of us can properly understand.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

No--it would be more like the US declaring war on Canada if residents of British Columbia said they wanted to be part of the US. Of course, the significant difference is that Ukraine was a part of Russia 33 years ago, whereas no part of Canada has ever been part of the US.

Gotcha. I was thinking we were Ukraine in that post though.

I used Texas because of thier recent desires to leave.

So it would be more like, us allowing Texas to leave and then invading 30 years later(if we were Russia), claiming they want to return.