Politics Ukraine / Russia (1 Viewer)

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You just love to support authoritarians invading their peaceful neighbors, don't you?
It seems most of your arguments on this topic are these sort of “good vs. evil” oversimplifications, or vague platitudes like “the right to defend themselves”. You can’t boil something like this down to such a rudimentary catchphrase and be taken seriously.
 
It seems most of your arguments on this topic are these sort of “good vs. evil” oversimplifications, or vague platitudes like “the right to defend themselves”. You can’t boil something like this down to such a rudimentary catchphrase and be taken seriously.
Well yes, in certain cases you can. You see, if you invade peaceful countries and torture and murder your and other populations you are "bad". If you hold fake elections that are predetermined or punishing people for voting against you and passing them off as Democratic elections or referendums, you are "bad".

Polpot was "bad". Hitler was "bad". Stalin was "bad".
 
If you hold fake elections that are predetermined or punishing people for voting against you and passing them off as Democratic elections or referendums, you are "bad".
Yep. Nobody ever accused Ukraine of being “good”
 
Yep. Nobody ever accused Ukraine of being “good”
Correct, I can't think of anybody who has.

They are, however, defending themselves against an aggressive neighbor. A defense which is in the best interest of Europe, the United States and the entire Democratic world to support.
 
There is a flood of new reports, from all areas.

Very short version. Everything is going in Ukraines favor, with only minor loses. Russia is taking a beating, from Crimea to Kursk.

Pooptin poked a hornets nest, with a short stick.
 
Literally the United States lol.
If this were true wouldn't you and beast be dead, imprisoned or exiled already? Talk about a stretch...Putin kills his opponents....you choose to live and pay taxes to the US govt....it's your choice. Nobody is making you do that. You can live in a country where you want to vote and that supports your morals and ethics better than a melting pot does. Choices. After reading that you won't vote because of two candidates, I'm thinking you've completely ignored the minority politcal parties in the US....there are many. I voted outside the red and blue parties in 2016...you have options but if you obstain from voting then you are basically surrendering to the culture you inhabit. Vote johnny...vote constitutional party...there's actually a Statist party and a Green Party and a Libertarian Party....pick a team and then you have every right to complain. If you don't participate you don't have a political voice here. Choices. You're too smart to not vote for the leader of the free world. Make no mistake, your local mayor is not going to have as much impact on your life or your children's future as the global landscape will.
 
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That is an absolute lie.

They celebrated it then, and celebrate it every year. Over 90% of the population supported it.

There was only 1 reported casualty.
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They celebrated it then, and celebrate it every year. Over 90% of the population supported it.

There was only 1 reported casualty.
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Right. Celebrated by the "little green men" who moved in and were given Ukrainian land, And who are given social services since they have Russian passports.

There was one casualty because Ukraine had no leader at the time. They didn't want a war with Russia. So the Ukrainian military barricaded themselves in their bases.

Then they all have their Crimean property seized which was then given to the "little green man" who overthrew the peninsula, who were definitely not Russian soldiers yet they are the people who voted to join Russia. In the illegal, sham referendum in which the occupied ukrainians were afraid to vote the wrong way.

Once again. You are spreading

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Right. Celebrated by the "little green men" who moved in and were given Ukrainian land, And who are given social services since they have Russian passports.

There was one casualty because Ukraine had no leader at the time. They didn't want a war with Russia. So the Ukrainian military barricaded themselves in their bases.

Then they all have their Crimean property seized which was then given to the "little green man" who overthrew the peninsula, who were definitely not Russian soldiers yet they are the people who voted to join Russia. In the illegal, sham referendum in which the occupied ukrainians were afraid to vote the wrong way.

Once again. You are spreading

200w.gif

The citizens celebrated. You don't seem to realize how highly polarized Ukraine was, and how the ethnic Russians, who overwhelmingly voted for Yanycovich resented his illegal overthrow (which was encouraged by western NGOs which were CIA fronts). They wanted to be part of Russia.
 
The citizens celebrated. You don't seem to realize how highly polarized Ukraine was, and how the ethnic Russians, who overwhelmingly voted for Yanycovich resented his illegal overthrow (which was encouraged by western NGOs which were CIA fronts). They wanted to be part of Russia.
The ethnic Russians in little green uniforms who invaded Ukraine.

Yes, they would overwhelmingly vote for Russia. Because they are actually Russian and Russia is gave them the land of that belonged to the Ukrainians.
 
The ethnic Russians in little green uniforms who invaded Ukraine.

Yes, they would overwhelmingly vote for Russia. Because they are actually Russian and Russia is gave them the land of that belonged to the Ukrainians.
Hmm? The soldiers didn't vote. We're talking about the voting of the actual citizens who lived in those areas.

Some may say they were scared to vote for anything else. But they voted for the outsted president at the same rate as well. Why can't you just be happy for the people who were liberated from the oppressive and illegit Ukrainan usurpers?
 
Hmm? The soldiers didn't vote. We're talking about the voting of the actual citizens who lived in those areas.

Some may say they were scared to vote for anything else. But they voted for the outsted president at the same rate as well.
Yeah, I call bullshit.
 
Beast, please provide a link to Crimeas voting results going back to 2004.

I could not find those results. However. The impression I came to from reading reports of that time period. A large group of people in Crimea prefered to be independent, and not under the control of Russia, or, Ukraine.

Now that they were forced under the control of Russia. No way to know for sure what they now want, using fraudulant election results.

Based on all of the help given to Ukraine by the people in Crimea. It appears they are not happy with Russia, and want the Russians out.
 
Beast, please provide a link to Crimeas voting results going back to 2004.

I could not find those results. However. The impression I came to from reading reports of that time period. A large group of people in Crimea prefered to be independent, and not under the control of Russia, or, Ukraine.

Now that they were forced under the control of Russia. No way to know for sure what they now want, using fraudulant election results.

Based on all of the help given to Ukraine by the people in Crimea. It appears they are not happy with Russia, and want the Russians out.

In the 2014 vote, 97% voted in favor of joining Russia. In a 2008 poll conducted by Ukraine, before the coup even happened, a majority still supported joining Russia.

It wasn't as high as 97%, but remember that was before an illegal coup took place. Phatguy can keep saying this is bullshit, but if you don't understand this, you're missing a big piece of the equation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum


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This poll was conducted by the United Nations:
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Has the Mystery of the Nord Stream Pipeline Bombing Been Solved? Ukrainian Suspect Flees Arrest

 
The 2014 election results you mention, took place about 6 months AFTER the Russian federation illegally annex Crimea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_...ons took place in,Putin's United Russia party
And also during a time when the Ukraine government was in flux. There was a fear that fascists who hate all Russian speaking people would take over.

Most people in Crimea do speak Russian, but "Ethnically Russian" means nothing. It just means they speak Russian.

This was also after decades of Russian deportation of Crimean Taters who had their land taken without compensation etc.

Now for 10 or 20 years the taters had been allowed to move back. And as the Ukrainian government was in flux they became active and started making plans to overthrow Crimea and put it under Turkish rule. Which made everybody afraid. So Russia seemed like the safest choice.

Since 2014 it has been dangerous to be opposed to Russia. People will not admit it if they are.

From what I've been able to gather most in Crimea do not want this war. They don't care if Russia or Ukraine win or who maintains control over Crimea. They just hope the war ends peacefully.

But Russia screwed that up by, once again, violating the Budapest memorandum (first time was when they took Crimea) and invading Ukraine.

Most of the referendums on the Crimean peninsula have asked if they want to join Russia now or go back to the 1992 Constitution (which basically means join Russia later). Since after 1992 the power to give Ukraine to Russia was removed from Congress. So then it would just take Russia paying enough Ukrainian Congress people to vote to give Ukraine back to Russia.

There hasn't generally been an option to maintain the status quo.

There was no loyalty to Russia.

According to the Budapest memorandum, which Russia signed as well as the UK and the United States, Crimea should go back to Ukraine.
 
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Has the Mystery of the Nord Stream Pipeline Bombing Been Solved? Ukrainian Suspect Flees Arrest


The more I think about this the more ridiculous it seems. I refuse to believe some dickhead simply “dove to the bottom of the baltic sea” and attached explosives to three separate pipelines, then successfully detonated them. That is like James Bond level fiction. It just doesn’t check out. People dont dive to the bottom of the fucking ocean.

If someone has some more insight into ocean diving and wants to enlighten me, I’m all ears and open to be proven wrong here. Seriously though, make this make sense.
 
The more I think about this the more ridiculous it seems. I refuse to believe some dickhead simply “dove to the bottom of the baltic sea” and attached explosives to three separate pipelines, then successfully detonated them. That is like James Bond level fiction. It just doesn’t check out. People dont dive to the bottom of the fucking ocean.

If someone has some more insight into ocean diving and wants to enlighten me, I’m all ears and open to be proven wrong here. Seriously though, make this make sense.
It's only 200 to 400 ft deep... I don't necessarily think that has to be a state level operation... Any billionaire could have easily funded that kind of thing.

Who would stand to gain from taking that pipeline out? Could be any number of people. Could be any number of nations.

For just one example... Wouldn't that make Iran's oil more valuable?
 
Sample size of 1200?
That's actually not too small a sample size for a well conducted survey, and look at how many were conducted. It was repeated several times.

You've got no leg to stand on. Russia liberated Crimea, so maybe you should be thankful to them. But all you want to do is criticize.
 
The 2014 election results you mention, took place about 6 months AFTER the Russian federation illegally annex Crimea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_parliamentary_election#:~:text=Parliamentary elections took place in,Putin's United Russia party

Yes, that was post liberation,the people voted massively in favor of joining Russia. The national elections are a separate issue, in 2004 and 2010, you can see the highly polarized election results, with Crimea, and the Eastern regions voting for the ousted Yanukovych.
 
And also during a time when the Ukraine government was in flux. There was a fear that fascists who hate all Russian speaking people would take over.

Most people in Crimea do speak Russian, but "Ethnically Russian" means nothing. It just means they speak Russian.

It may mean nothing to you, but it means something to the people of Ukraine. Having Russian be a 2nd official state language was a hot button item politically. Think how the views on DEI or abortion divide our nation. They also saw the veneration of Stephon Bandera, someone who aided the Nazi's in WW2 as a major offense. People in the US really have nothing similar to compare that to. It would be like if the mayor of Detriot Michigan said the KKK was going to be the new hero of the city.

When people talk about the government of Ukraine embracing Nazism, it's not just political rhetoric, it's what literally happened.
 
It may mean nothing to you, but it means something to the people of Ukraine. Having Russian be a 2nd official state language was a hot button item politically. Think how the views on DEI or abortion divide our nation. They also saw the veneration of Stephon Bandera, someone who aided the Nazi's in WW2 as a major offense. People in the US really have nothing similar to compare that to. It would be like if the mayor of Detriot Michigan said the KKK was going to be the new hero of the city.

When people talk about the government of Ukraine embracing Nazism, it's not just political rhetoric, it's what literally happened.
Not according to the Ukrainians I've spoken with. And I've discussed it with many.

Ukraine didn't even try hard to get the Crimean peninsula to adopt Ukraine. The only ones who cared about that are a small minority of fascists. Because Ukraine was so open and accepting there were all kinds. Including fascists and skinheads. Nobody else cared what your thought you were. They just wanted peace.

And they weren't worried about Russia taking Crimea because Russia, US and UK had signed the Budapest memorandum guaranteeing none would attack, or even threaten to attack Ukraine, and all would protect and honor the Ukrainian border as it existed at the time.
 
That's actually not too small a sample size for a well conducted survey, and look at how many were conducted. It was repeated several times.

You've got no leg to stand on. Russia liberated Crimea, so maybe you should be thankful to them. But all you want to do is criticize.
Bullshit. There was no liberating needed. Nobody was under attack (aside from the corrupt government in Kyiv, you like so much to talk about). Untill Russia attacked the border, violating the Budapest memorandum.

You don't get to leave just because some polls show it's a popular idea. Texas doesn't get to leave the US. Neither does California, or Cascadia.

A popular idea doesn't mean mexico can just go liberate Texas or California. No, we'd knock the shit out of Mexico and their forces in those states.

And the US and UK allowing Crimea to be taken so easily encouraged Russia to attack the rest of Ukraine. Making the same arguments about liberating Ukraine from Nazis.

It's all bullshit. And it's why Russia needs to come out of this with less than they started with. We need to support Ukraine until they get all of their territory back and pay reparations.
 
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