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I am not anti-USA, just anti USA arming the world and starting wars and overthrowing governments.

I'll say it again. To make peace, you need to talk to your enemy. There are two sides and both need to be heard and taken into account.

I think many in the US are really ignorant of Russian history. Both how bad the early Soviet Union was, and how far it came under Mikhail Gorbachev. They really wanted to start a new era of cooperation with the West, and instead the west kept expanding NATO, something many foreign policy experts have been lamenting for decades. They also use Russia as this default boogyman. Tulsi Gabbard critical of your bombing of Libya "SHE'S A RUSSIAN AGENT!"

Rulers always want to manipulate the population to support the wars they want to fight, and it's not for the benefit of the people.
 
I think many in the US are really ignorant of Russian history. Both how bad the early Soviet Union was, and how far it came under Mikhail Gorbachev. They really wanted to start a new era of cooperation with the West, and instead the west kept expanding NATO, something many foreign policy experts have been lamenting for decades. They also use Russia as this default boogyman. Tulsi Gabbard critical of your bombing of Libya "SHE'S A RUSSIAN AGENT!"

Rulers always want to manipulate the population to support the wars they want to fight, and it's not for the benefit of the people.
The US making peace treaties with other nations is none of Russia's business.

There was no expansion from 1982-1999, until Putin came into power and started being aggressive and forcing the countries in Russia's neighborhood to consider what Russia may do to them if they don't join NATO.

NATO expansion since Putin took power has been a direct result of Russian aggression toward its neighbors.
 
Not the same.

Putin fights wars to take control of more land.

The only land the USA takes, is just enough to bury our dead. Heck, we no long even take that land.

Yes the same.

We took Texas and California from Mexico. And much of the land in the US from native amaricans. Our whole history is full of awful things.
 
Absolutely correct that American history full of awful things.
That does not excuse Putin doing awful things.
 
Absolutely correct that American history full of awful things.
That does not excuse Putin doing awful things.

Do as I say, not as I do?

Again, if we want peace we have to talk to our adversaries and listen to their POV. A peace may require some pain on both parties' parts - unless there's an all out war, which is more possible now than any time since the Cuban Missile Crisis, you cannot demand complete surrender from the opposition.
 
Do as I say, not as I do?

Again, if we want peace we have to talk to our adversaries and listen to their POV. A peace may require some pain on both parties' parts - unless there's an all out war, which is more possible now than any time since the Cuban Missile Crisis, you cannot demand complete surrender from the opposition.

Denny, I agree with a lot of what you say. I am older than you. And I hated every second we had kids in Vietnam. I lost a lot of friends in that war. I love being a Marine, but, hated fighting a useless war micro-managed by politicians.

Everyone dies in a war. Even the ones that survive have a part of them that dies.

I do not like how Biden is micro-managing this war. But helping Ukraine fight Putin is sadly, the best option.
 
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Do as I say, not as I do?

Again, if we want peace we have to talk to our adversaries and listen to their POV. A peace may require some pain on both parties' parts - unless there's an all out war, which is more possible now than any time since the Cuban Missile Crisis, you cannot demand complete surrender from the opposition.
That was 180 years ago. The world is a bit different now than it was back then. The US is different.

Nothing the US did makes anything the Russians are doing okay.

Russia has treaties with Ukraine and so does the US. The US and Ukraine are upholding our end of the agreements while Russia is violating theirs.

The only thing the US is doing wrong in this situation is not giving Ukraine more weapons and support. And I think there are good reasons for that. Even if I don't agree with them 100%.
 
The US making peace treaties with other nations is none of Russia's business.

There was no expansion from 1982-1999, until Putin came into power and started being aggressive and forcing the countries in Russia's neighborhood to consider what Russia may do to them if they don't join NATO.

NATO expansion since Putin took power has been a direct result of Russian aggression toward its neighbors.

If you think joining NATO is making a "peace treaty", you have much to learn. Also the course for expansion of NATO pre-dates 1999 and Vladimir Putin. Poland, Hungary and Czech Republic did join in 1999 (before Putin came into power), but the process started long before.

I notice you bring Putin into almost every conversation. It seems in your mind, Russia isn't really a country, it's all about boogy-man Putin.

The tension over this was already at play in the mid 90s.
https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-.../2021-11-24/nato-expansion-budapest-blow-1994
 
Absolutely correct that American history full of awful things.
That does not excuse Putin doing awful things.
Putin, Putin, Putin, Putin....the lot of you are obsessed with Putin. Because the propaganda campaign has been waged against you with Putin as the boogyman.

There are several morons in NATO leadership that openly talk about ousting Putin, as though that would change anything. As though Russia would allow it's government to be over-thrown by military force without dropping nukes.

Bat. Shit. Insane. If you people don't wake the fuck up you'll keep voting for people that will put us on a course for annihilation.
 
If you think joining NATO is making a "peace treaty", you have much to learn. Also the course for expansion of NATO pre-dates 1999 and Vladimir Putin. Poland, Hungary and Czech Republic did join in 1999 (before Putin came into power), but the process started long before.

I notice you bring Putin into almost every conversation. It seems in your mind, Russia isn't really a country, it's all about boogy-man Putin.

The tension over this was already at play in the mid 90s.
https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-.../2021-11-24/nato-expansion-budapest-blow-1994
Yes, Putin is the major problem in Russia.

Don't even try to deny that or defend him.
 
I am not anti-USA, just anti USA arming the world and starting wars and overthrowing governments.

I'll say it again. To make peace, you need to talk to your enemy. There are two sides and both need to be heard and taken into account.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/explainer-why-did-russia-invade-ukraine

EXPLAINER: Why Did Russia Invade Ukraine?
Experts say the cause of the military conflict can be tied to a complicated history, Russia’s tensions with NATO and the ambitions of Vladimir Putin.

Ukraine’s ambitions to align itself more with Western countries – including its publicly stated interest in joining NATO, which itself was founded at least in part to deter Soviet expansion – has been met with aggression from Russia, the council notes.

...

A principal demand of Russia is to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO, a military alliance between 29 European countries and two North American countries dedicated to preserving peace and security in the North Atlantic area. Ukraine is one of just a few countries in Eastern Europe that aren’t members of the alliance. The Kremlin in general views NATO expansion as a “fundamental concern,” according to a translated readout of a Jan. 28, 2022, call between Putin and French President Emmanuel Macron.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/stone-interviews-putin-says-asked-russia-joining-nato

In Stone interviews, Putin says he once asked about Russia joining NATO

MOSCOW — Russian President Vladimir Putin says that early on in his tenure he floated the idea of Russia joining NATO.

In a series of interviews with American film director Oliver Stone, Putin said he inquired about Russia joining the alliance when then U.S. President Bill Clinton visited Moscow in 2000.

“During the meeting I said: ‘Let’s consider an option that Russia might join NATO,'” Putin recalled. “Clinton said ‘Why not?’ But the U.S. delegation got very nervous.”

Putin had said in an interview several months before Clinton’s June 2000 visit that he wasn’t opposed to Russia joining the alliance, but his comment to Stone was the first public indication of his raising the issue.

In the segments, Putin portrays Russia under his leadership as seeking to improve ties, but frustrated by Washington’s “imperialist mentality.”

Despite Putin’s onetime interest in joining NATO, in the interviews he criticized the alliance for expanding eastward to Russia’s borders.


As I wrote earlier, inviting Russia to join NATO would definitely cool things down between Russia and the west. Why? Because we would be subject to article 5 to defend them just as we would be to defend any other member. And they would be partners, not the reason to have a NATO to protect against Russian actions.

Also, when our presidents want to go to war, like to destroy Libya, they don't go through the UN because they'd get vetoed or otherwise blowback. Instead, they go through NATO where the US can bully the members (who else will defend them in case of war?).

I'm sorry, this just reads as a bunch of Russian propaganda.

Russia, with Putin, have been bad actors since he came to power. Otherwise he never would have taken over the media, as he did early on.
 
Yes, Putin is the major problem in Russia.

Don't even try to deny that or defend him.

How much can you trust about what you read/hear about Putin, when it comes from the same media that lies so much, and is using Russia as the "boogyman".

Whenever I've listened to him speak, he seems very intelligent and rational. He's probably no angel, but I'm not Russian and don't care much about Putin. I don't want WW3. There seems to be this "let's get Putin" mania underneath it all, all other considerations out the window.
 
How much can you trust about what you read/hear about Putin, when it comes from the same media that lies so much, and is using Russia as the "boogyman".

Whenever I've listened to him speak, he seems very intelligent and rational. He's probably no angel, but I'm not Russian and don't care much about Putin. I don't want WW3. There seems to be this "let's get Putin" mania underneath it all, all other considerations out the window.

Nobody is attacking Russia. Putin has invaded his neighbors numerous times. He has turned Russia into an autocracy. A dictatorship.

Refusing to let a dictator do whatever he wants outside his borders is not going after him. It is setting limits. I'm not going to support allowing Putin to rule the world because otherwise he'll throw a fit and threaten to start WW3.

The world knows what the situation in Russia is. Putin is not going to destroy the whole world because he doesn't get what he wants. If Putin launches nukes outside of his borders he knows that will spell an end of his rule. If they push it that will spell an end for Russia. If Russia is ended Putin is going to want someplace to go that isn't glowing.

The US doesn't need nukes to handle Russia. Nato doesn't need nukes. We've already seen their military can't handle us. It would be an absolute annihilation. The world isn't concerned about the US overreacting and launching nukes on Russia. The only way we need to do that is if Russia started an all-out nuclear war with the US by targeting multiple American cities.

Nobody wants that. Putin doesn't want that.

And he can't have all of Europe. He can't keep invading his neighbors. Especially not neighbors that we have peace treaties with.

No, I don't feel sorry for Putin. No I don't have any respect for him. No I don't trust a word that he says.

I have formed my opinion because I learned media literacy. I'm critical of what I read and I verify it.
 
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After Trump got shot through the ear, a lot of people woke up. (at least temporarily). In that moment, all the rhetoric and talk became "real" and people had to confront what a new world might be like where we have to factions offing our political leaders. I think it did shift our "overton window".

A similar slap in the face is coming, only it'll be too late to pull back.
 
After Trump got shot through the ear, a lot of people woke up. (at least temporarily). In that moment, all the rhetoric and talk became "real" and people had to confront what a new world might be like where we have to factions offing our political leaders. I think it did shift our "overton window".

A similar slap in the face is coming, only it'll be too late to pull back.
Lol. Trump is lucky somebody else hasn't taken a shot at him before now. Nobody is honestly surprised that happened. And even that was apparently a wacko Republican.

You are arguing that we allow Putin and other authoritarians (like Trump wishes he was) to control the world out of fear. Fuck that.
 
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Putin is leading Russia into a demographic catastrophe
‘Moscow can always find more men’, one hears people say, justifying Western inaction. It is simply not true

Lies, damned lies, and statistics. If anyone knows how to falsify figures to bolster weak causes, it is the Kremlin.

From Stalin’s manipulation of Soviet productivity statistics during his Five Year Plans, to Khrushchev’s exaggeration in the Cold War of his missile numbers, no entity has proved as effective at fabricating facts to demoralise, unsettle and outmanoeuvre opponents.

Today, in a similar manner, Putin points at Russia’s 144 million citizens and argues, through his propaganda mouthpieces, that it is “impossible” for Kyiv to win his war, given Ukraine’s population is a paltry 37 million.

By this logic, figures released by British intelligence this week – that Russia lost more than 70,000 troops in the past two months, averaging daily conflict highs of 1,262 and 1,163 in May and June – become irrelevant. “Russia can always find more men”, one hears people say, justifying Western inaction.

Except it can’t. Raised on documentaries about the “unstoppable” Russian bear – capable of tearing its way through Eastern Europe, as it did in the Second World War – we forget that this is not possible in modern Russia. Nor is it even desirable for Moscow.

For one, while Putin has conducted several large-scale mobilisations, he remains cautious both in terms of the numbers of men he recruits and where they come from, prioritising conscripting in poorer communities far away from the power centres of Moscow and St Petersburg; often marginalised ethnic minorities. Already, some of these communities have given all they can, with reports of entire generations of men being wiped out in some towns and villages, triggering widespread, if localised (for now), protests.

Moscow’s caution in this regard means it is obliged to empty prisons, exonerating murderers and rapists so they can serve in the Russian army or mercenary outfits like Wagner. Again, this resource is not infinite: numbers are now said to be so low that Moscow is turning to women’s prisons. Given that, by design, women only make up 4 per cent of the Russian army, this is extremely telling.

But these are still relatively minor impediments when considered against broader trends. Russia’s fighting age population, at 14 million, is not gargantuan. With many not eligible or undesirable for recruitment for geographic reasons, the number shrinks further. Many of Russia’s young fled after the full-scale invasion: an estimated 300,000 by mid-March 2022, 500,000 by the end of August, and an additional 400,000 by early October. Estimates put the current number of the departed at over a million.

Then there’s the fact that the full-scale invasion deepened Russia’s demographic crisis. Deaths have outnumbered births in the country since 2000. That – two and half years into the full-scale invasion – as many as 350,000 Russian troops have been killed or wounded is indicative of the scale of the catastrophe.

I could go on. Russia is not as powerful as the Soviet Union: approximately half of the Soviet population came from what today are non-Russian countries – and even then, twice as powerful in numerical terms, it lost its war in Afghanistan in the 1980s. That conflict underscores that army size is only part of the equation.

Indeed, many of the vital components necessary to win wars – like military adaptability and modern tech – work in Kyiv’s favour. That’s before one considers its will to survive as a free nation. And one cannot put a figure on that.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/15/putin-is-leading-russia-into-a-demographic-catastrophe/
 
Since the end of February, both sides have gained land. Ukraine has gained land in the north. Russia has gained land in the south.

Overall, Russia has gained more land than Ukraine. A 0.010% of Ukraine land. At a huge cost in both personnel and equipment.
 
Literally the only reason conservatives don't give a shit about Russian aggression and autocracy is because Putin's rule represents what they want to achieve. An oligarchy class that is above the law? Check. Persecuting the queers? Check. Writing trans people out of legal existence? Michael Knowles can barely contain himself. Outlawing abortion? Already on its way. A figurehead that is infallible and can punish his political enemies without fear of reprisal? Thanks for that one, Supreme Court.

If Putin were a normal neolib, no conservative on earth would be holding water for him and pretending it's because they're antiwar.
 
Who said Ukraine was winning?
Wow, now you're going to pretend that never happened? You can time travel back to this thread and see how most of you thought Ukraine was winning.

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